Rafa

I have to say that i am jelous, i would never even think of putting this much work to get a rear view camera, my bros. s500 came with one at it looks sweet, till the tiem he borke it baking up into my GSX =P lol

RotorGeek

More pics

RotorGeek

And more

Rotary Rasp

iTrader: (2)

robbz- i'm using the PIE input and have a 100% clean signal. I was shocked that it had no whine or loops when it was done.



very nice, how much was the nav tray. Is that s&t 05? It looks much better than 2003, which is what i started with. but really, there is nothing better than iGuide

RotorGeek

It came with S&T 2006. It is pretty nice but I also would "LOVE" to HAVE iguide

Japan8

I was going to mention this to Rotary Geek...

For yet MORE options... take a look at CarPC adapter made by mp3car.com member jbors. Allows you to control the PC from the steering wheel controls and also output track info to the headunit. He doesn't have a Ford/Mazda unit yet, however, I am willing to bet that the P.I.E. adapter with it's M-BUS connector will work fine with the M-BUS version of the CarPC adapter.

[thread jack]
Here's a question for the CarPC people... do you prefer more flexiblity or faster more "integrated" systems? Basically... WinXP/WinXPe based systems with a front end or WinCE based systems? You'll have ultimate flexibility with WinXP, but it'll boot slower and use more resources... makes a Via board too slow for some people. However, many on mp3car.com say if you want Nav, mp3, bluetooth phone, and occasional video/DVD then the Via has enough power. Looking at it from that perspective... then why WinXP if there was a viable CE option? With a API/SDK you could add apps to it still. It'd boot faster, run faster, require less memory. There would potentially be more navigation options. Syncing with your home pc/server is easy since there is a MS made Sync app. It makes sense to me... but then I prefer more PnP to DIY (Windows over *nix). What are your guys thoughts (feel free to start another thread if necessary).
[/thread jack]

Rotary Rasp

iTrader: (2)

Let me start by saying that I have a 1ghz via board. The via boards are fast enough for anything but gaming. For most people, playing Doom 3 is the last thing they want to do on a 7 inch screen while driving.

As far as operating systems go, you'll notice that Win XP is the OS of choice. This is because for the most part, it is an awesome operating system. Most people already know how to use it, most all drivers and software are made for Windows, and lastly, XP can handle crashes pretty well.

While Win XP may be the slowest OS around, it doesn't matter for most people. Most of the programs used don't require much speed, and can get by just fine with extra memory to compensate for the lack of speed.

Win XP embedded is another great choice for carputers. It offers the ability to only install the components needed in your particular application. Once the image of XPE is created, the core must be locked down. This offers another clear advantage, it is very stable, fast and secure. XPE offers very fast boot times because only the required components are loaded during boot. For that same reason, XPE images can be very small. The only real downside of XPE is, 1) it is very expensive, 2) it is very hard to create an image. I have a XPE image which I used for a while. I resorted back to Win XP because I needed a more dynamic OS.

Windows CE isn't really viable because very few companies, other than VIA, offer CE drivers. For those who don't know, it is designed for PDA's. I realize that there is a new version of CE, that in which, I know nothing about. I do know that the last version would not support many things. Also, not a lot of software around for it. Lastly, it appears the CE my be too limited for some users. As far as snycing goes, there are programs for any OS that will sync with your desktop or server.

I found this link which goes in depth about CE.
http://www.embedded-computing.com/pd...soft.Nov05.pdf

If all the negitives I mentioned were overcome, CE would be a great OS. But until then, Windows XP remains.

FYI- XPE and CE are not to be installed by the average user.

Let me know if you or anyone has further questions.

-Rodger

Japan8

About that CarPC adapter... truemagellen had started a thread about it before, but here is the link to the site for it... http://www.indashpc.org/

Japan8

Great write up!

I agree completely.


I'm not so sure that is true for the reasons you give. I'd say XP is used over older versions of Windows because of stability. However, XP v Linux would be for the reasons you give. People are more familiar with Windows and the learning curve to build the customized setup is much less. The fact that there is a distinct lack of software such as front ends and especially navigation available for linux also seems to be a factor.

Just to split hairs... WinCE was designed for real-time applications (systems). PDAs is only one. Palm top computers, cell phones and even POS systems (Point-of-Service.. i.e. cash registers). I imagine you could even use it as an OS for routers, switches and other networking equipment (Cisco uses CIOS... *nix derrvied).

Xenarc does offer WinCE drivers for their screens.

How many pieces of hardware require new drivers to be written/installed? I've been wondering about when people add a CF GPS receiver to their PDA and nav software. I've never tried it, but are they required to add drivers through ActiveSync?

WinCE 5.0 does seem to be more... flexible. DVD, USB, etc. are supported. As it does support a version of .NET (.NET compact framework), I am curious as to the level of abstraction in app programming... like .NET on NT Kernel machines.

As far as CE being too limited for some users... you can't please them all. WinXP is too much work from some users... on the other hand. Too difficult to Nlite and too difficult to drop on CF (there seem to be some issues there still too)... there's a lot of resources available to help you, but for the average user (non-IT person)... it can be a bit overwhelming I imagine.

Do you think that the number of non-technical people interested in a CarPC (modded Xbox, in-car iPod and mobile GPS/nav included) are a small minority? Or do you think that they exist as a distinctly different market than the CarPC enthusiast?

Ditto! The average user should probably also skip fancy stuff like running WinXP from Compact Flash (CF) memory cards... rather involved and you can easily ruin an expensive memory card.

Thanks a lot for your thoughts.

RotorGeek

Thanks for the heads up. I just ordered it. (Car2PC-MBUS). Lets see what happens. I will update this thread when I get it.

I also have the PIE adaptor and it sounds awesome

Japan8

Cool... can't wait to see if this works...

Rotary Rasp

iTrader: (2)

I think that most people don't realize that the operating system is only one piece of the puzzel. If you don't have a good foundation then even the most stable operating system, arguably Palm OS, will crash. What I mean is that if you have good hardware, good drivers, and a good design layout, you shouldn't have any stablity issue with XP. For the 6 months I've been running XP, it has never crashed. Not even once! And If you look at the design of my system, you can see why. It is cleanly laid out and well built. Considering I have my system hibernate when I shut the car off, 6 months without any problems is impressive.



I didn't go much into the different flavors of Linux because of the obvious reasons. There is a major lack of software, drivers, and support. You'd better off using Mac OS.



Like I had said, I don't know much about CE. From what I can tell, it offers the same advantages are XPE, just in a stripped down form. Would you agree? I can tell that CE 5.0 is a major jump from their last version. If you would like, we can build a CE image. Sounds like a fun winter project.



CF GPS receivers come with CE drivers because they are made to be installed on a PDA. Just think of it like Windows 98, everything is going to need a driver.



I agree, XP is a overkill for most car users. CE and XPE are the clear winners in my book. While I think that CE has a little way to go still, I believe that XPE is ready to be implemented, it is just too hard to install for most people. Also, I've installed windows on CF before and it's rather slow. The fastest CF cards on the market are only 33MB/s compared to a 3.0Gb/s SATA drive.



Lastly, I think that most of the non-technical people interested in a CarPC are the minority. I think most of the people that do these custom PCs, like us, are in a different leage. Most of these people are IT people who have a good idea of what they're doing. Carputers are very complex, which in turn, scare most people away that are unsure whether they can do it. Another thing to consider is that there are not many, if any, places that will do this for you. Which means pretty much every carputer is a DIY.



Feel free to comment.



-Rodger

robbz23

I was just talking to a guy here at work about XP embedded and the tools to make images. He was explaining how you can take a fully installed XP computer, and use the XP embedded tools that will make an image of only the modules needed for that one computer. Anyway I am going to see if this is a workable solution for my carputer and update you guys on the results. Apparently the image we use here for thin client workstations (via mb's without a HD) is about 190MB.

Rotary Rasp

iTrader: (2)

Yup, in theory it is that easy, but to actually do it takes some skill. Well, it least it does for me. Hey, i'm just a kid. Remember though, compact flash is slow compared to a hard disk.

It is also good to know that the hard drives built today have much higher to tolerances to shock and vibrations than even the ones built a few years ago. The operational shock limit for my 120 gb hard drive is 20G's and a vibration limit of 1G. By looking at those specs, you would need to get in a wreck before your drive would crash. No of course, the drive is more likely to fail in a car than it would in your desktop, but my point is it still more than capable than in car use. I've had my drive running since May without any problems. And for the 50 bucks I paid for it, I could care less if I have to replace it every 3 years when the warrenty ends.

JeRKy 8 Owner

I wonder if there are any cams available that you can rotate left and right with a remote

Japan8

NOt much time to comment, but here's some stuff...

WinCE 5.0 drivers http://msdn.microsoft.com/embedded/u...ult.aspx#other


General WinCE stuff...
http://msdn.microsoft.com/embedded/g...d/default.aspx

http://msdn.microsoft.com/embedded/w...e/default.aspx

robbz23

RotaryRasp --

We do use CF images for our thin clients at work, but they are hooked up thru the IDE interface. From what I understand you can use HD's for the same function. I dunno i was just thinking it would be a great way to save on boot times, etc

Rotary Rasp

iTrader: (2)

All computers using CF cards as a primary drive are connected through the EIDE bus. The bandwidth limitation is in the memory itself. Yes, you can use HD's which would allow you to utilize the highest possilbe bandwidth. But, then your back to the old issue of realibilty because it is no longer a solid state platform. And whats the point of a small OS if you have 200gb drive at your disposal. However, like you said, I assume it would boot fast. This is something I may try just for kicks.

Rotary Rasp

iTrader: (2)

You got to love this. Posted right on Microsofts Windows CE website:

"Important: Microsoft Product Support does not provide support for third-party validated device driver software. For support, contact the company listed as the owner of the device driver. Unless otherwise noted, Microsoft has not tested these devices and cannot advise you to use them."

slavearm

Are you guys using laptop hard drives? If you are concerned at all about the reliability due to shock etc, use laptop hard drives. If my ipod is still working (and it is) then you shouldn't have any problems in a carputer.

RotorGeek

I am using an 80GB laptop HD now. It runs great

Japan8

Actually that isn't a laptop HDD. That's a Toshiba 1.8" HDD. They do have a high shock and vibration rating than 2.5" HDD (laptop). Problem is price and capacity... Toshiba's go up to 80GB, but they seem to be OEM only. Hitachi does make some that can be bought by consumers on some sites, but the largest capacity is 60GB. Price at this size is about $200. For that much you can get huge 3.5" HDD (desktop) in ATA or SATA. You could also pickup a 100GB 2.5" drive for that much money.

Hitachi also make a line of auto environment specific 2.5" HDD which have exceptionally high shock and vibration ratings, but size is only 20GB and 40GB. They aren't cheap either.

Japan8

I am more than willing to bet they say the same thing for 3rd party XP drivers as well.

From a business perspective that is perfectly reasonable... they didn't write them and it's not a necessary component of their product (WinCE). So the "special" drivers that ATI packages with their video card are their responsibility to support and Microsoft doesn't guarantee that they will work or not cause conflicts.

This doesn't mean don't use them. This is just legal *** covering. Otherwise MS is pretty much saying to use them.

Rotary Rasp

iTrader: (2)

Oh I agree 100%, I just thought it was funny.

As far as drive storage goes, I think for the money, any desktop drive would work fine. No reason to spend extra money for a laptop drive that may not last any longer. I know some will disagree with that, but do a search on mp3car.com and you'll see that most people have had no issues running 3.5 inch drives and prefer them because of their cheaper prices and higher speeds. Hard drive mounting also has a large effect on its realibilty.

RotorGeek

As far as prices go I got my 80 gb for free