firebirdude

iTrader: (3)

You are ditching two 9" woofers and replacing them with a 6.5" midrange/tweeter set.

By the same reason, which would output more bass, a 12" with 200W or a pair of 3 1/2" with 300W?

catchmeifyoucan631

I guess the 12" since it's bigger and can pruduce a deeper bass. Good point. I'm not too keen on how to pick out the components I only really know how to install them, so sorry for the noobness. Right now the Polk SR's are looking better than the kickers, and I was considering ordering a set the other day. How are Polk's subs? Would it matter if I went with another brand for the sub or are best results aquired when all items are the same company?

BA was one of the first brands I looked at, the SPZ's are way too much and the SL60's are at 80 RMS. also the tweeters look a little plain and they don't look like they can be flush mounted. I'm sorry for being so picky about this but I did reasearch just about every high end brand and there was always something that turne me away from them. But Polk right now seems golden for what I'm lookin for, unless there's any bad things about them like there was Kicker.

firebirdude

iTrader: (3)

You deserve to be picky! It's your audio system and your money!

When it comes to those low frequencies, it's all about air displacement. Which speaker can move more air. The two 3 1/2" speakers simply do not have the cone area or travel to equal the output of the 12".

And brand matching means nothing, but sure does look much better. My personal pet peeve is mis-matching amps. lol I realize different amps may be better for someones specific application, but it just makes the install look ghetto. If you want to go with all Polk speakers/sub and Rockford amps, that's fine IMO.

catchmeifyoucan631

I agree completely. A frend of mine has an MTX sub, an Alpine amp, Eclipse Speakers, and Kenwood deck.

Well I was only considerig Rockford because I couldn't find anything to match the specs of the Polk's but I saw the Polk PA500.4 and they're 250 x 2 @ 4 ohms in 2-channel mode which is perfect. As far as Subs go, I need a 10" and Polkaudio.com doesn;t have any 10" subs on their sight. such a shame since the SR 12" looks so nice. Regardless of price, what are THE BEST 10" subwoofers on the market?

simplec

Memphis cheaper? Dollar for dollar better than JL or kicker?. I looked, Kicker has cheaper similar sized speaker sets and more expensive sets. JL is expensive yes, but have you ever heard anyone that has them complain? Hey though, if you'd like to put that Memphis 15 inch heavyweight sub on their website with a MSRP of $1,500 up against a Kicker 15L7 MSRP of $550 you'd make me a betting man already with a grand in my pocket.

firebirdude

iTrader: (3)

Uh. Which website are you looking at?
http://www.polkaudio.com/caraudio/products/subs/10inch/

Using two 4-channel amps plus a sub amp is going to play hell with your wiring. 9-channel RCAs anyone? How about a single PA1100.5? Bridge the 4-channel section to power your front stage, sub output on the sub, and power the rear speakers off the headunit? Build up that front stage and simply everything? Just an idea.

And IMO, the headunit doesn't count when it comes to match up. Some of the better manufacturers of headunits make crappy everything else. And those that make great amps/subs/speakers don't make headunits at all. If you wanted to make an entire setup all one brand.... Alpine?

alexanderiv99

i wouldnt go with memphis subwoofers....i would go with mmats....and that i would definately go with over kicker or jl....kicker and jl amps cant even touch a mmats amp...and you cant just look at numbers you have to hear the memphis speaker...even if they are low watts....but get a hold of some mmats.. and you can put any kicker speaker up against mmats and you will get squished....speaker for speaker....you will need muliple speakers to compete against one mmats

firebirdude

iTrader: (3)

I'm going to go out on a limb here.... lol

alexanderiv99, what gear are you using in your car now?

catchmeifyoucan631

What the hell? Lol I was looking on polk's site but when I clicked subwoofer it only brought me to the 12" section. OK so I can get the SR series 10"

Specs for the PA1100.5:
250 watts RMS x 2 bridged output at 4 ohms + 600 watts RMS x 1 at 1 ohm

The sub's impedance is 4 Ohms so what does that mean for getting the most out of that set up? and Won't it sound a little off-balance with the fronts amped and the rears not amped?

I looked at MMat's too but the only components I saw are 3-way and where will I put those 5" or 4" mids in the front? Also their own site has no specs for ohm impedance or wattage.

firebirdude

iTrader: (3)

That SR 10" sub is also available in dual 4 ohm. Meaning you can run it at 2.

catchmeifyoucan631

Ugh I wish I understood Ohms more. so what's the outcome of an amp pushin 600 at 1 ohm to a 2 ohm sub? how many watts will actually be goin to it and whats the defference between the ohms matching and them not matching?

Socket7

Ohms are a measure of resistance. If an amplifier makes 200 watts of power at 4 ohms impedance , then it will make 400 watts of power at 2 ohms (halving the impedance doubles the amount of current used)

Few amplifiers like being wired up to a system with less then 2 ohms impedance. Check your owners manual before using anything less then 4 ohms or serious damage to your amplifier could result.

Also remember that the amp itself is going to have current limitations, so an 800 watt amp wont produce 1600 watts at half the impedance. it can only ever do 800. trying to make it produce more will probably just damage it in the long run.

Also remember impedances and power ratings aren't exact. Your numbers are never going to be exactly double or half or whatever.

http://www.bcae1.com/ <--- Read chapter 7. All you ever wanted to know about resistance/impedance. Actually, read the whole website. It's a must for anyone into car audio. Ohms law is one of the most fundamental basics of electronics.

catchmeifyoucan631

Thanks for that site. That did explain it a bit more, but that was more focused on how much power the amp really puts out for each Ohm impedance, which I did understand. Maybe the answer is so obvious I'm just overlooking it, but what I don't know is how to calculate whether the speaker can handle it or not. I have no idea what I'm confused about, I'm confusing myself as I'm typing this (not exagerrating)

Maybe I'm asking it wrong, so I'll try again. The Ohm Impedance on the amp measures the resistance and in turn, how much power is actually coming out depending on how it's hooked up. What does the Ohm impedance on the Speaker measure? What does it represent?

Socket7

A speaker has a fixed impedance. Usually in cars, it's 2 or 4 ohms. Some subs have dual voice coils, which gives you an option of wiring them up in series or parallel, to get a couple different impedances (this really just gives you more ways to hook it up).

Your amp has a maximum output power. This is measured in peak and RMS. Pay more attention to RMS then peak. RMS is the average maximum output. No matter how you wire your amp, it wont produce more power then that. At any given impedance, you can expect to get a certain amount of power, out of a certain amount of current. For your amp to produce 150 watts of power at 4 ohms impedance, it will use about 6.1 amps of current. To produce the same 150 watts at 2 ohms, you'll draw 8.6 amps of current. (I = Square Root of (P / R))

The lower impedance/resistance of a circuit, the more current will flow through the circuit. So too low of an impedance on a speaker will cause an amp to draw too much current, overheat, fail, or blow fuses. Too high an impedance and you won't be able to extract the full rated power of your amp, because not enough current will flow through the circuit.

Read your amplifiers manual, if it can take a 2 ohm load, then use 2 ohm speakers. If it can only take a 4 ohm load, use 4 ohm speakers. This will insure you get as much power out of your amps as possible.

Realistically, you are never going to be playing your system at RMS power levels for any extended period of time. You'd go deaf. I've measured SPL's of 120DBa inside my car, and the whole system is running with a 60 amp fuse at the battery. the amp has 100 amps worth of fuses on the side.

When you are talking about the subjective listening experience, numbers are an excellent guide to get you in the ballpark, but once you're sure nothing is going to explode on your system by looking at the numbers, they become pretty much useless for measuring the quality of the speaker/system.

catchmeifyoucan631

So hypothetically if you were to hook up 4 ohm speakers to an amp powered at 2 ohms, would it blow out the speakers because more power is coming in than its meant to handle or will it simply resist the power at the speaker and put out as much power as the amp would at 4 ohms? or did I just completely misunderstand what you said? I'm not so concerned about this personally because I am going to match the Ohm impedances, but I am a little embarrased at myself for not understanding Ohms.

On a side note I'm applying to Mobile Technical Traing school in Jersey, and I'll be starting in March 09 and graduate in september 09.

Socket7

Using higher impedance speakers then an amp is intended for is fine. You won't be able to extract the most power out of your amp with a higher impedance, but for SQ projects, thats not necessarily a big deal. I think my JL's up front are all 4 ohm speakers, and my amp is rated for 2 ohm minimum load. Still loud as all hell when I crank it up, and they sound damn good too given the amount of tuning ability I have in my current setup.

If you use to low of an impedance, then the amp will draw more current then it's designed to handle and bad things will happen ranging from distortion to blown fuses, to amplifier death.

electricity is very mysterious. Not really intuitive. I really recommend beating your head against that BCAE website until you start being able to see how things work inside your head. Once you start understanding how current effects voltage effects wattage effects amperage, the role of resistance in circuits, it will all start making sense.

catchmeifyoucan631

Of course. I'm gonna study that as much as I can before March. Thanks a lot for explaining that to me I now have a better understanding of it.

firebirdude

iTrader: (3)

I think that's the key sentence to understand. I can use a 16 ohm subwoofer if I want. The amplifier won't output much power to it, but it's still completely safe.
At 100% efficiency. Which is completely impossible, but I get where you were going with it.

forbidden

Put the spec sheet up to your ear and tell me how it sounds. If you can go ahead and buy on a spec. If you can't perhaps you should start taking in advice from some of the well traveled people that are directly involved in car audio and have been since christ was in diapers. You are flip flopping around more than a fish out of water and in the end all of your "research" is going right out the window. You can have the "best" equipment in the world and have the worst reults possible if it is matched incorrectly, used incorrectly and installed incorrectly. No offence intended with the next comment but if you state you know how to install, you would also know how to match equipment to your needs and to what the install needs. Stop now before you spend cash on items that will not give you the results you are after. What you want is a highly predictable outcome for your investment, this takes time and $.

catchmeifyoucan631

Nothin for nothing, but the reason I am "flip flopping like a fish", if you will, is because I've read numerous opinions from everyone who has posted, and some contradict others. "get Memphis" "don't get memphis", "this brand is good", "this brand sucks" so telling me to take advice from people who've been around since "christ was in diapers" wont do me much good, would it? Because taking the advice of one will ignore the advice of another. And I also took your own advice by dropping the 8" woofers in the front and going with 2 way components instead of 3. So how am I not taking advice, because I continue to keep an open mind of different brands/opinions, and am picky about it?

And who are you to say I don't know how to install or match equipment!? I'm completely capable of installing and tuning sound to my liking, but right now my main concern is to not buy amps or speakers that is too powerful or not powerful enough for the other, which is why I'm trying to match the specs more than anything else.

Of course I want a highly predictable outcome for my investment, and everyone's input has shined light on some companies I wouldn't think of (Polk, MMat), so I actually am taking advice from those who have been so kind to help me, how can you expect me not to take insult to what you just said!?

forbidden

No insult intended dude. Just to draw a much closer attention to what you have going on here. Yes there are some on this forum who cannot give advice without reading it somewhere else. There are on the other hand a select few of us that can indeed give you the information that you desire. It is your job to sift through the posts and figure out whom these people are and if you like research the information that is posted or ask them their background.

Your 8 is a nice vehicle, I have worked on a couple now for full systems and they are without a doubt a real pita. The new radio deletion kit from Metra or Corksport is going to solve many headaches for the people who are on the path to the start of good sound in their 8. You are on a good path as well, save for the flip flopping based on what?

Everyone hears different, everyone has a different bias when it comes to what works and what does not. I am biased against Kicker for business reasons, not personal ones. As a business owner (in Canada so it is different in the US market), Kicker is just not a good investment for me, this means it is even a worse investment for my customer.

One thing that being the owner of a shop leads to is this. I get to play with all the lines, get to experiment, get to know what works with what and how. All on a much grander scale than the average consumer. I do things different than the consumer and many of the shops as well. Does it mean the other shops are wrong, no, it means perhaps that I look at what is in the customers best interest and if I do not have what they need, I find it.

JL Audio is another example of poor business in Canada. While the line itself I like and is rock solid, if you think it is overpriced in the US market, wait until you see it in Canada. In most but not all cases, the Canadian dealer is forced to pay what your retail price is as our dealer cost. The line in Canada is about 40% more than what it sells for in the US. Is this in my customers best interest? If the customer can afford it and the product is right for the install, then yes. Otherwise, there are many other great options to consider.

Keep your system simple. Just because a speaker can handle 150w rms of power does not mean that you need to give it that. A speaker given 50% less power will on the average play approximately 3db quieter, that is all. That is a difference that you can notice as a slight change in output levels (or ah crap, my girl is talking to me and I better pay attention).

You need to look at what your goals are again. Start from scratch here is what I recommend. You do indeed want a highly predictable outcome, you are prepared to do it right. You are my favorite type of customer, one whom wants to learn and become educated and is not afraid to try on their own. Take it a step at a time and slow down some.

Socket7

There is much wisdom in these words.

Socket7

well yeah, but I didn't think i needed to state that 100% efficiency in ANYTHING is impossible according to the laws of thermodynamics. I also didn't want to have to do math with non whole numbers, then explain how I pulled 86% efficiency out of my *** instead of some other number to do my calculations with.

Maybe I should caution that when wiring 2 4 ohm speakers up in parallel, you can end up with less then 2 ohms impedance because your speaker won't necessarily be exactly 4 ohms each? But then I have to caution that it could be more then 2 ohms, or that your amp could be fine running a load of 1.724 ohms? It starts introducing all kinds of "if" when you include those losses. Makes things more confusing then they need to be.

firebirdude

iTrader: (3)

Why 86%? This amp I'm looking at only does 84%. Can you crunch all the dem numbers for me again?

And although I can't honestly say it has caused a problem, I HAVE been worried that the actual Re of the subwoofer(s) was too far from nominal and when paralleled may cause an issue with the amp I was using. But like I said, I've never had a confirmed issue.

catchmeifyoucan631

OK then Forbidden, I apologize for the blow-up. I must say that on the Avic411 forum, members are quick to be a smartass and insult, so that's how I took it, But I see it's not like that here, again I apologize.

Maybe I asked for the wrong thing from the start. As I am aware of and decently educated in the main name brands, Kicker, Alpine, JL, etc, (I personally owned products from Kicker Alpine Pioneer and Hifonics) I feel that these brands (for anyone wealthy who owns these brands, please don't take offense) that they are a mediocre to good quality. What I'm looking for is very high quality sound and bass, more so bass. I wanted to see what experienced members had to say, what they'd recommend, and why. What I'm looking for is a lot of bass in the cabin, something that will, not make it hard to breathe, which my Kicker's did at full boost, but something that will deffinitly blow me away. But at the same time, nice, clear and crisp High's for when I listen to something more subtle. What brands or models will give me exactly this I guess is what I am asking. I've heeded Firebirdude's advice and I am going to go with a single 10" subwoofer (or is 2 subs recommended for balance) with a 4080 box, and 2 sets of 6.5" components amped. That is basically the structure of what I'm looking to buy.

On a side note, I took everyone's advice and went to Best Buy to hear them myself...absolutely nothing was accomplished...First they had about 20 different HU's and none had any FM or AM stations, with no CD's available. great, at least I know how static sounds differently throughout the speakers. Second, They had a WIDE selection of Alpine and Infinity...nothing more. Then I asked for the electronics rep to get a personal opinion, and he was in the back, so I had to follow the manager to the installation department, only to find myself talking with a 16 year old kid who knew absolutely nothing about electronics, other than Alpine and Infinity, which is what the store carries. I asked how he felt about Polk, Kicker, JL, MB, BA, and I just found myself mentioning names while he stood there shaking his head.