Socket7

I'm currently running JL TR's in the fronts, 6.5 inch components in the doors, and a 3.5 inch coaxial for the front center channel. In the back I'm running Infinity kappa 6x9 coaxials. I've also got a 10" rockford fosgate sub in a 4080 box in the trunk. (eventually to be replaced with a JL 10W6, when I sort out my other issues)

I'm quite pleased with the results. It's orders of magnitude better then the Bose system, and gives you the clarity you want for solos, and is still more then capable of maintaining that clarity while blowing holes in your eardrums when its time to get LOUD. The bass is very tight, which is great for tracks with technical bass (say drum and bass), and with a remote volume control for the sub, you can tone it down so it's not overpowering when you don't want it to be.

Crutchfield is good stuff. They'll let you return anything if it doesn't work.

simplec

Was this guy serious in his thought that car audio cannot sound well and that car audio equipment is made using cheap parts? Please contact Bowers and Wilkins and let them know that their speakers are crap then. Especially those put in a Jaguar. Talking about speakers reflecting off of the inside of a car and hearing 90 percent reflection, but seem to be willing to put on Bose headphones???? Bose- the company known for using reflection off your walls. Car audio is more of a challange I admit to get decent sound. As for your untouchable SLA... A lot of sound depends on the environment that it's reproduced in. Any top of the line quality made car/home system can sound crappy if it's put in too big/small of a space and numerous other variables.

User24

iTrader: (1)

You are all mostly correct. Except, "square unobstructed room" is actually the worst room shape, not the best.

Some last pointers to think about for your car audio system:

1. Resolution cannot be gained above what is already recorded, only lost with each additional component added into the signal path.

2. Ears do not hear in a linear fashion. Would you rather have a better measuring equipment that sounds bad to you, or a worse measuring equipment but fulfills your aural needs?

This means, in car audio, a field that advertises on various technical "numbers" thrown around, may or may not have any relevance.

3. In the long run it is cheaper to not use "band-aids" to modify the tone to your liking. Just fix the problem at the source to keep it simple.

4. Point of diminishing returns cuts in very quickly with car audio. You cannot fight physics.

With these ideas in mind anyone should be able to assemble a car audio aftermarket system with minimal frustration. In fact you should come out on top of those guys who purely try to power it through audio, like brute hp versus rx8 refinement in driving.

"Synergy" is only one of the most important factors in audio satisfaction. If you throw some pieces together, and for some reason they just don't sound good together to you, and fail to emotionally draw you into the music, then what have you got? Nothing at all!

They must synergistically operate together in a manner which touches off your emotional responses. Sometimes you get recommendations, other times you just need to experiment.

I went out on a limb to defend a much maligned brand, Bose, while others bash Bose and throw around big brand names such as "B&W" and even "Jaguar". There is some sort of misunderstanding or uninteded hypocrisy in the air, but no big deal. My preference of equipment reveals my bias, taste, and the current state of my maturity in hobby, but does not reveal a price tag. I want you to know I've enough experience to justify my thoughts, important to whip it out on the table and establish when trying to defend an underdog brand of products.

If you like it, if not, no big deal. Just keep in mind I drive rx8 not Ferrari which means I did not spend much money on audio. I prefer to sling a little solder myself to modify electronics or have another hobbyist build a kit for me. Sometimes the cheapest of modifications have the greatest impact. Big name brands like B&W do not matter at all to me. But I am also not afraid of name brands lower on the food chain, such as Bose, when they do the job.

Clarification, SLA ie Sealed Lead Acid battery, like car audio in fact. Powering components with batteries instead of using the ac grid. It really is untouchable in price/performance category. SLA batteries from Radio Shack, instead of buying an overbuilt amplifier because they had to spec the AC power section so clean.

I hope this closes any cans of worms that people are trying to pop open. My advice brochure is on the table to pick up or leave. Read it, either understand it, or just toss another skeleton into my closet. Doesn't matter in the end.

Socket7

But you still aren't grasping the basic concept here. Bose may have some wonderful studio quality gear, They may have great club quality gear too. In fact, I'm quite satisfied with the quality of the signal coming out of my head unit. None of this changes the fact that the overall quality of the system Bose put in the RX-8, sucks.

Audio should move you. As you yourself said, brands and numbers don't matter, it's about what you hear. What I hear from the Bose system, It's cheap paper cone speakers, and its 0.5 ohm impedance 9 inch door woofers, and 2 inch tweeters is a distorted, muddy, underpowered mess, which just happens to have more frequency range then a base radio. So much information is lost between the head unit and what you hear coming out of the speakers it's unreal, but thats to be expected when you try and band-aid fix cheap speakers with wild EQ settings like are applied in the Bose amplifier.

By your own words. The Bose system is worth nothing. They threw together some cheap speakers, made them sound slightly better by using the Bandaid of EQing, for an all around unsatisfactory experience. It's not particularly loud, it lacks low end grunt, and high end clarity.

I'm inclined to sling solder around whenever I've got nothing better to do, and thats why I've done a complete upgrade from the Bose system. I knew I could easily do better. I didn't need to spend as much as I did, but I wanted to push it as far as I could go.

The bottom line is this. The RX-8 is a sports car. The audio system was an afterthought, and the quality from the audio system reflects that. Even the Bose system is a compromise to save weight and money, and again, the sound quality reflects that clearly. There are massive gains to be made with after market gear.

If you think your experience says otherwise, you may sit in my car and let your ears decide for yourself.

onefatsurfer

Anyway, if you want to upgrade sound, the fastest, cheapest, and easiest way is probalby to replace the crappy speakers in the car w/ better ones. I don't have experience w/ JL speakers, but I've heard good things. Clarion stuff sucks, IMO. I really like my pioneer 4/5 way speakers in my Taurus. They sound really good, especially since they can be had w/out much coin. The best way to go re: sound is to swap out one system at a time, and see if that makes the sound good enough to your liking. Don't blow your wad spending thousands of $ at first. Swap out the speakers, and if that doesn't do it for you, address the concerns you have next. If, at that point, you feel you need more bass, you could (ugh) put in an amp and subwoofers. If you need more highs, you could get better tweeters. If you need even better sound quality after all that, put in another amp to power the speakers, replace all the wiring, re-run new ground lines, add capacitors, dynamat, etc etc. until you die from claustrophobia working in such cramped quarters.

Have fun, and don't forget that the rx8 is a lightweight sports car that will be made heavier with each speaker change, subwoofer addition, etc. Do clean, careful work, have patience, and don't compromise what the car is just to make it sound a little better.

Socket7

Replacing all 4 speakers is going to gain you less then a pound of weight. An amp is going to be maybe 5-10 pounds. The heaviest part of my system is the sub and it's enclosure, which comes to over 20 pounds I'd reckon. Those 4080 boxes weigh 13 pounds each, empty.

I suppose you could spend 600 bucks on 100 pounds if dynamat and try and seal out all external noise, but I feel thats a complete waste of time.

powering aftermarket speakers with the bose amp will lead them to sound bad because of the EQ curve applied by the Bose amp. However, you can replace all speakers but the door woofers with aftermarket speakers. You really have to ask yourself why not go and get yourself a real amplifier if you're going to all the trouble.

User24

iTrader: (1)

Just a though here since you said you listen to classical music. You may have heard of Tripath semiconductors company. They are out of business and bought out by Cirrus Logic semiconductors, but had a version of Class D amplification that caused quite a stir. I am currently using an amplifier based off the Tripath TA2020 chip. It performs fairly well with massed string instruments. You might be able to find some used car audio products that have Tripath amplifier chips in them. If they have enough power for your requirements, they may be worth a look.

The level of refinement will be dependent upon how good the design implementation is, of course.

It may be informational for the rest of you to find out what is inside your digital front end and your car amplifier. Calculate the total parts cost, and figure in how good of a value they are. Perhaps discover that the cheapest parts were used that they could get away with, in order to maximize profit. I would not mind hot rodding a car amplifier with better internal parts, if it didn't mean tearing rx8 apart.

I can say this of my digital front end and my amplifier. I know the internal components used, their parts cost, whether or not quality capacitors were used in the signal path, etc. There are reasons why an old Philips TDA1543 dac chip was used inside even though the consumer manufacturing industry has moved on, and I happen to know those reasons.

As rx8 driver, we know there is a metaphysic grey area that separates vehicle specifications sheet, and your driving pleasure. You can have great hp, but have the driving experience just not satisfy your appetite. But the more experience you have, the better you can bridge the gap between the technology, design, and create a means to an end for your pleasure. If only more people who buy audio equipment really understood these things.

User24

iTrader: (1)

Pro audio can be a good value, just don't accept it is good just because it is from a pro brand name. I once used a pro audio product years ago, and they billed it as "audiophile" sound quality. But it was still bottlenecked by the performance of a much-maligned opamp on the analog side! I clipped it out and desoldered, then I replaced with a drop-in compatible opamp with better sonics. Then biased it into class-a operation via building JFET cascode from the (-) supply to output rail.

The devil is always inside the details and you have to understand a thing or two about the microcosm of audio equipment before you can start tossing around advice like a blind man.

firebirdude

iTrader: (3)

Saw this at Circuit City today.... instantly thought of this thread.

[]RhOdEs[]

Sorry to jack this thread, butSpeaking of Bose,, anyone had trouble with the head unit? I have issues of it cutting out the left side of my speakers when playing cd's. Radio is fine though. Sound is ,,well I'm not a fan, but it will have to do unless I upgrade.

rddragoness

I recognize everything but the JL TR's...Fosgate is part of the plan, however I've been told that I can't mix anything else with the Bose head unit, or its hard to do anyway. Some places I have found wont do it period. Actually the Fosgate is the main unit I was going to use, and build the speakers around it, or am I totally wrong in my thinking because of what I have been told.

Keep in mind I have to explain to someone else what I want. It sounds like you have the right idea of my tastes.

Socket7

Whatever shop told you they can't do an 8 because of the Bose head unit doesn't know it's ****, or doesn't know 8's at all. There are several options available for interfacing with the Bose's low level, differential outputs that range from 150 to 600 bucks depending on what you choose and where you buy it.

Be aware that a standard line converter will not cut it for the Bose HU. It uses both the positive and negative signal wires to push audio signal, and most line converters short the negative wire to ground to act as a shield. This is fine for a non differential unit (like most aftermarket gear), which actually uses the negative wire as a ground, but will lead to head unit failure with the Bose HU.

An OEM interface like the JL cleansweep can take the Low level differential signals coming directly out of the Bose head unit, and convert them into a pre-amp output suitable for driving an aftermarket amp, without having any EQ curve applied to the signal. The Audiocontrol LC6 is supposed to be able to do the same, but I've had bad luck with Audiocontrol gear, and no problems with the cleansweep. Other people have had no issues with Audiocontrol, so make of it what you will. Rockford Fosgate also makes the 3sixty which supposedly does the same job as the cleansweep, only with more options. Alpine has its own interface too, which comes with a microphone you put in the car while it runs a test CD to minimize audio interference from reflections and whatnot. I recommend the cleansweep because I've used it and can personally vouch for it working.

The only speakers in the Bose system which are non standard impedances are the front door woofers, with an impedance of 0.5 ohms. The rear deck, tweeters, and center speakers all use standard impedances of 2 ohms or 4 ohms. (2 ohms for the rear deck woofers, 4 for the tweeters and front center)

You could replace all those speakers but the door woofers and get decent results. Jedi went that path with his install in fact, though he added 2 10" subs for low end grunt. Absolutely check out his install thread.

Just replacing speakers is a good way to start, if you're not getting what you want out of it, you can continue on to adding an OEM interface and an amp to power the new speakers. It's a cheap inroad to building a system that can grow to suit your needs.

djkrazy

i have had that problem and what i read in the forum a few others had that problem too .... bose = crap