Genom

So I've had the stage 1 for about 3 weeks. About 2 weeks ago while driving around and merging onto the turnpike I was accelerating at about 60% throttle when all of the sudden I got a CEL. Didnt feel any hesitation in the car, it just happened to go on right when I was glancing at the dash. Otherwise I would have never noticed it until later. Car seemed fine and I drove home. Once there I tried starting it up and didnt have any problem, just a persistant CEL. Well, afetr starting the car 5 times (in the next day and a half) it went out. I figured I'd wait it out and see what happened. Sure enough, it came up again. SO I unplugged the battery to clear out any CEL, then turned off the stage 1 and ran the car for a week with no CEL's. Then yesterday I turn it back on and after about 45 minutes got another CEL.

OK, so I go to the source and email Maurice about it and here is what he had to say: (I am posting so as to save him the trouble of going over it again, as well as the fact that I found the info very usefull as I am still learning about tuning and think others might apreciate it as well)


We have seen this 3 or 4 times now.
I **think** what is happening is an interaction with another function in the ECU.

We have been working on an entirely new map and configuration.
Mazda came out with en ECU flash that seems to be targeting improvement in fuel economy.
Among other changes it makes the midrange very lean, then retards timing to compensate.
This ECU flash seems to be found on cars imported after some point in late December, and on those recently having a service where the dealer reflashes it. These started showing up about 2 weeks ago.
Whether or not your is subject to this , or not, however is not the point.

We did a new setup, and mapping based on using a bit of advance, combined with a new fuel map.
It is a bit less aggressive in the fuel settings, and adds a bit of ignition advance, in some strategic places. We originally did it to alleviate some of the "dip" at around 4,500rpm.
We found that trying to tune out these dips with fuel only was not terribly reliable. Changes in air intake tracts, combined with fuel adjustments could make it awkward. For example, we tune it to smooth out in a 1st or 2nd gear run where you go through the rpm range in a short time period. The actual time factor is short, and the changes have a delay before they come in to effect. So we have to do the changes in advance of the targetted rpm point. If we set this advance time factor for 1st or 2nd, it is wrong for 4th or 5th, where the revs climb more slowly.
However if we use a bit of ignition advance at those points ( 3 to 5 degrees, for a range of about 100 to 250rpm) it is much more controllable and predictable. There is no latency or lag in the application of a change in timing advance.

As a result, all new units now have ignition control integrated in them, same as a Stage2 build.
As a result all units now are the same hardware setup, simply a different tuning map for Stage 1 or Stage2.

This also makes the process of upgrades much easier. If someone buys a Stage1, and wants to upgrade to Stage2, all they need is a software revision.
We will have a program for this available in the next few days. It is written already, just needs some tweaking to make the user interface a bit more friendly.
It also requires that there be access to the programming port, as we covered it in the earlier ones.
All new units have the port open, with a cover plate over it, secured by screws.
We will sell the cable and update software for $75
Further, if people want to do their own tweaking and tuning, we will offer the cable and the full software for $150. We are not gong to sell that to everyone, as it requires the use of a proper wide-band, 5 wire fuel/air lambda sensor and logger. Some skills and knowledge are required for that, or bad things could happen!

BTW, the ignition control interface we have added inside these units has a true rpm or tachometer output, which is useful for tuning, as the tach in the dash is badly inaccurate, and not very useful fro tuning, where only the driver may see it!

We have planned to contact our customers who already have Stage1, and offer an upgrade.



So there ya have it folks. For this being a side-venture sure looks like time is being taken to do it right huh? Hope ya dont mind the blatant copy/paste Maurice, but I didnt feel like trying to re-explain all of your reply :D

brothervoodoo

Genom, thanks for the info. Doesn’t this bring a new "hook" into the equation? I guess Maurice is retuning his piggyback (ver1.1) under the assumption that the end user has had a reflash, which many early pre-orders may not have done. Any thoughts on having a ver1.1 piggyback installed and how it will react on a originally tuned car?

Maurice states, "Whether or not your is subject to this , or not, however is not the point."

From what Maurice has written above I am not certain whether he is planning or already has compensated for this difference. I'm curious what the answer will be on this?

Gyro

so whats better for performance. The original PCM fuel maps....with richer A/F's
-------------OR------------

The new PCM calibration with LEANER A/F's along with retarded timing.

Is there any difference in over all feel or power from the engine with the new Mazda fuel maps?

compaddict

Good stuff.

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

With the interface port, tuning software and true RPM/tach interface, it is starting to look like my setup more and more each day! :p

Genom

brothervoodoo: From what I understood even with the ECU reflash the new map should prove to be smoother in the 1.1

RX Guy

So sounds like for those of us who has a pre-ordered 8, we should find out if Mazda plans to reflash our PCM. If so, then we'll need to upgrade to Stage 1.1 after the re-flash.

davefzr

From my point of view it sounds like the ECU mod is based upon RPM and doesnt take into consideration other factors that seem to be important (ie Stage, Mazda remap which produced Stage 1.1).

If it was based upon fuel ratios and air and rpm then to me it wouldnt matter if the mapping changed as you are basing the calculations on more reliable data to make the changes on the fly...

But what do I know

David...

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

That isn't the case; so whatever you do know, it does not include this.:p

The Canzoomer box works just like the E-Manage system I've outlined (see SIG) only with no setup or installation hassles.
Plug-n-play.
It tracks RPM, airflow and throttle position.
What adjustments that are made are dependant on data gathered on RX-8s that were programmed from the factory with one set operating parameters that existed up until just a few weeks ago. Those parameters are quite different after this new ROM flash and adjustments have to be made to the Canzoomer box just like I will have to do with my E-Manage setup.
It isn't voodoo, just a new set of circumstances.

davefzr

Ohh ok.. I got it now. Thankx for the reply! I can see many versions of this mod coming out ir that is the case then.

David...

emailists

Now I am really confused as what to do......

I guesse we need to know what Madza firmware Genom's car has. Also since my 8 was built in December, I am wondering what firmware is in mine. When I talked with Maurice I thought he indicated the new Mazda maps were done in the last few weeks, not months.

I would love to get this unit installed- it just seems like things will be delayed till all variables are considered. Of course another option seems like perhaps if every unit shipped with the cable and software (even at additional cost for the cable- the SW may have to be a freebe)- Maurice could create safe maps for each version of the Mazda firmware, and every owner could upload the appropriate map for thier car. If you didn't know what firmware was in your car, I suppose we could try a different map until we hit one that didn't trigger any CEL.

Genom

I would imagine I am running the old maps as the last time I was in for a Mazda oil change was about 2 months ago and I never noticed any kind of difference at all.

shebam

Me too; my reflash was almost 6 weeks ago. I guess when I bring it in for the warranty work in March I might as well just uninstall the Stage One and ship it back to CZ for upgrade, as I'll be afraid to turn it back on -- IF they are reflashing every time you bring in the car, as opposed to only in response to your getting a CEL or complaining about the mileage. This would be the part that would be nice to know.

Racer X-8

Hey Genom,

So what you are saying then is that you think that nothing Maurice has mentioned applies to your CEL situation?

You don't think you have any new Mazda reflash.

You obviously have the original CZ Stage 1 map.

So, you still have an unanswered problem. Right?

BRx8

ok here's my story which seems to correlate to all this:

about 3 weeks ago i had a CEL light which i took in and they reflashed my ECU...they had to told me from about 2 weeks before that when i got my first CEL light that a new program was available to enhance MPG...anyways, my 2nd recflash came at the exact time i got Canzoomer's Stage 1...i got my car back from service and then i installed Canzoomer's Stage 1

well that's when i noticed that when my car is cold, the car 'stutters' from 2500-3000 and from 3000-3250 in 1st and 2nd gear respectively as if fuel was being cut off...it felt as if i was driving a manual car for the first time in 1st gear and the car was jolting back and forth but my foot was completely steady on the gas...and this WAS DEFINITELY NOT there before i installed the unit...

anyways, it's still happening now, but only when the car is cold...once it warms up those problems do disappear, but i AM experiencing rough idling when warm...

so do we, who seem to have the new flash upgrade, turn the unit off so that the CEL doesn't come on?

TitaniumRX8MD

Does anyone know what the current version of the ECU firmware so we can find out which one is causing the CEL?

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

Mazda is calling it "L".

canzoomer

Not really.
With the new flash ( which i had done on my car so I could test) the AFR ratio gets a bit leaner in midrange than before, but not so much as to be dangerous.

However it is outside of the range we want to keep it within.

So, we are backing off a bit in that area on fuel lean-ness ( is that a word??), and adding a bit of advance.

This makes it a proper set up with either the old or the new ECU maps. And still makes for a smooth response, and the proper power output.

By doing this we have also alleviated a bit of a "power dip" that is present in that range.

It is interesting as well, when we look at the map on some Australian cars, where they took the step of leaning out the mid rpm range as well, but went even further. In those it reached the point where it was definitely too lean.
So, if they ever do this version over here we want to make sure it is still safe.

BTW, for the Aussies reading this, we are now very close to the point of having a map for your cars.

canzoomer

Exactly.
Initially we did not offer some of this in Stage1, as we were tying to keep the costs down.
However, now that we have also found the source for the connectors at a better price, and have designed a board for the ignition control wiring to go inside our box, we found that the cost increase is only slight.
So we decided to implement this in all of our builds.

We also added a connection point on it for a real tach output.
As the stock tach is rather inaccurate, and as some people have asked for this so they can hook up other tachs, or shift lights, we felt this would be useful.

Also, we will be providing for hooking up the Stage3 controller with this, so one may use multiple maps, stored on a SD FLASH RAM card. One can then select different maps for different applications.
It is still necessary to shut off the engine to do this, as the ECU would get annoyed if you did it while running.

That way people have a bit more flexibility.
For example you could have a Stage1 tune for daily driving, a stock tune for service and emissions tests, and a Stage2 tune for track use. You would still need to swap out your mid pipe fo rthe Stage2 tune useage, but this is not a very difficult job.

For those who do club racing, or similar, i feel that is a handy setup.

Another benefit of this is that if you do purchase the tuning cable and software, and have the tools and skills for doing your own tuning, you can store different maps for different track conditions, altitude, temperature, humidity, fuel type, etc.

Here is a picture of the display and controller for the Stage3 kit:

brothervoodoo

Thanks Canzoomer, so out of curiosity when is the next shipment of piggybacks going to happen?

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

At what kind of price point are you sending those controllers out ?

I want one for my Miata setup.
Can you supply the version with boost-control capabilities at a good price?

canzoomer

Genom's problem, which has shown up on 3 or 4 cars so far, was due to a firmware bug in the boards up to recently.
We have tracked it down, and that has now been corrected.
The maps and the ECU tune are a newer issue.
Basically, the new Mazda maps push the AFR leaner than i want to see it on a Stage1 setup. Not so far as to cause ping normally, and not in the higher rpm range where the exhaust gas temps become an issue.

Still, if one ran on 87 octane, in hot humid weather, and with a particularly crappy tank of gas there is a slim chance it will ping.

So, we backed off on the fuel/air tune that range a little bit, and added some advance to compensate.

Let's describe it in AFR ratios at 4,500rpm:
Mazda old ECU map made an AFR of around 11.4:1
Mazda's new ECU map makes it 12.6:1

Our old Stage1 map raised the AFR to 12.4:1 on the old Mazda ECU map.

This same Stage1 map will raise the new Mazda map to 13.6:1

Our new one raises it to 12.0 with the old Mazda map, and 13.2 with the new Mazda map

We added a few degrees of advance, so if you run the old Mazda map you gain about the same power as before, and with the new one you gain a couple more HP at that RPM. The increase over stock at that rpm is about 5 now, where it was about 2 before.

This tune is not possible on our older units, which only incorporated provision for fuel/air mixture, but not ignition advance.

So, we are contacting the people we already shipped to, and offering them an upgrade.
We are not charging for the upgrade itself, but one does have to pay for the freight.

canzoomer

Yes, you definitely should do this.
As mentioned in a couple of other posts here there are reasons to do so, both for the sake of safety, and for better performance and smoothness.

As for future flashes, I really can't see Mazda pushing the AFR any leaner, as it would become out of the range they like to use.
It would inevitably raise exhaust gas temperatures if they went any further, and the catalytic converter life would be an issue.

I DO want to congratulate Mazda for doing this, BTW.
The newmap does seem to gain a bit more fuel economy inlower rpm range..
I have run through 3 tanks with it on my cr so far, in normal driving conditions, and I do see some improvement.

This is occuring in the lower rpm ranges, where our tuning does not change the stock maps.

There, I said something nice about Mazda!

canzoomer

We are building them now.
As I mentioned earlier we had some grief with a supplier of wiring components, and this cost us a rather long delay of about 3 weeks in building.
We used the time to work on the new tuning, finishing of Stage2, and so on.
Better road conditions due to milder weather also helped a lot, as we need this for road testing.

I expect to be shipping out new units by the end of this week.

brothervoodoo

Sounds great, I look forward to hear reviews as people start to receive their new units!