Floyd

would the hp gains from the stage2 ECU upgrade be in addition to the gains one would get from putting in a straight pipe? In other words 45-55hp(ecu) + 15-20hp(straight pipe) = 60-75hp gain from stage 2 mod? Sounds pretty sweet!

my10ae

Well I'm disappointed that this ECU upgrade won't be avaliable for the AT. Maurice, what would it take to get this done for us auto owners?

Kevin

PS who would be interested in this upgrade and has an auto tranny?

canzoomer

Only place of possible damage is that the life of the catalytic converter MAY be shortened.

From what we have determined the reason Mazda had to retune for North America was to mee the new EPA2 spec for 2004.
This requires that the cat will last 120,000 miles, instead of the 50,000 miles dictated by the old spec.

With our mod, we are essentially retuning to the old spec, in the sense that the exhaust temperatures will be similar, and cat life should also be similar.

canzoomer

Sure, by re-installing the stock exhaust midpipe, and disabling the kit.
We will provide instructions on how to wire a switch to it, or you can simply remove it, as it only takes a few minutes.

Still, I DO want to point out that in some jurisdictions if you are caught running modifications that make your car make illegal emissions, you could be liable for a $2,500 fine.

Some places they never check.
And some places the DO.

You have been warned..

canzoomer

No. I expect that you will get something in between.

We have to do a bunch more testing with this, before I can make definitive answers.
We did some test runs with straight through mid-pipe, and the tuning levels approximating the Stage2 tune.
These were preliminary, not the final setup.
We got 52 on the dyno, and the GTech showed 55
BUT, I was running the stock muffler, so the exhasut gains would have been diminished to some degree.
Until I have a full exhaust build setup on it to test with I simply can not say what the final results will be.

That will come next month some time, weather and time permitting.

I can't do much this week, as it is -10F outside tonight..

Great power levels from cold dense air, but not exactly the ideal traction levels..

And I will be getting my car back Saturday, with the new engine, and i still have to break it in, and a few other things first..

canzoomer

I REALLY DOUBT that you could gain that much on the AT.

The AT does not even HAVE the 3rd set of intake runners that the MT has.
The AT makes peak power around 7,000rpm as a result.

On top of that the auto tranny sucks up some of the power.

Lastly, there is a damned fine reason they capped the AT power.
From what I have heard that tranny will break if you fed it much more power.

REALLY. You do NOT want to do this!

If you want a faster RX-8 sell the AT and get an 6MT.

That is the right way.
Without ANY modifications you will get an extra 30hp right off the bat.

MPG > HP

CZ,

This sounds really enticing and I have an extra $500 burning a hole in my pocket. I hope my questions will be of interest to others:

1. I'd prefer not to damage the environment any more than I have to. Other than at WOT, what is the difference in emissions between Stage I and stock at 80MPH steady cruise and also in stop-n-go?

2. How much would you charge to include the disabling switch pre-wired and connected? (I'm too lazy/preoccupied to break out the soldering iron.)

3. Will customers be able to obtain flash updates of newer maps as you make them? What would be the reflash procedure and how much would they cost? (see next)

4. We all could use an extra 20-25 HP at WOT, but for everyday (95% of the time) driving, "throttle jumping" HP isn't really needed for point-shoots through traffic, if you're crafty, so the main issue becomes MPG. What are the prospects for getting a super-efficiency map for low-mid throttle while keeping the current Stage I mapping for when you want to have some WOT fun? What would be the potential MPG gains (again in "normal" driving only)? How many orders would you need to ship this mapping at "market" prices?

5. Are you on the Canadian west coast? If you're east coast, then what the heck are you doing up at 02:30?

Thanks for providing this valuable service to us rotorheads!

my10ae

CZ:

If an ECU remap would not help the AT gain extra HP, then so be it. The issue with the tranny not being able to take an extra 5-10HP is, what I think, false. Do you really think Mazda de-tuned the auto tranny for its North American market to go along with the HP drop? The car was originally supposed to have 210HP (if I remember correctly). Mazda now has it at 197HP. If J-spec auto 8's are making the extra 13HP and not destroying their tranny's (with no ecu remap), why then do you think the (N. American) auto can't possibly take another 10+HP?

If the remap can't be done on the auto, I'm good with that. I know you have multiple hours and a large investment in the remapping for the 6sp and may not want to deal with the auto issue. I for one would buy a stage 1 upgrade if it was made available to get back that lost 13 or so HP. Would anyone else?

If it can be done and there is enough interest, would you consider this a possibility for the auto owners out there?

Regards,
Kevin

j1mb0x99

Canzoomer,

Will you be putting up a website with all of your information on it? For instance, I have heard people have been ordering import parts off of you, perhaps a website showing what you have to offer would help. Also you would be able to display all your test results and put up a FAQ so you don't have to answer the same question twenty times. Let me know what your plans, if any, are on this.
Thanks,
-JiM

FONZIE

________________________________________________

I have a question for anyone who might know...

Does anyone make a Cat bypass system where a cat and a straight pipe are in parallel and can be switched back or forth by a couple of electric valves on both ends?

It got me thinking that if you could do this and canzoomer made his system switchable between Stage 1 and Stage 2 then with a pair of switches you could easily convert from a Stage 1 setup to a Stage 2 setup in seconds. Viola, ~30 extra hp when you need it........

djmano

fonzie,

i assume your are making this so you can say you have a cat running on your car, making it emissions legal. however, you would fail even a visual inspection making the straight pipe/cat alternate setup useless. i have heard of CHP in using mirrors to look at the underside of cars to check if they still retain a catalytic converter. however, if this was not your attention please tell me other wise.

Speed Racer

Fonzie,
Someone posted a link to an electrically controlled exhaust by-pass valve a while ago but I haven't been able to find it again. It is an interesting idea but I don't know how well it would work in the real world (i.e. actual performance gains & hassle at dealership or inspection).

FONZIE

It was just a thought I had last night. Inspections aside, I thought it would be cool way to have the option to drive the car normally most of the time, but get that extra power by flicking a couple of switches.....

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

1) A CAT cutout of any kind would fail the visual inspection
2) You can't "switch" Canzoomers kit on the fly. The ECU will freak out. You have to turn off the car, disconnect it, and the reset the ECU.
3) When do NOT the extra 30 HP?:p
I can tell you, you would NEVER have that switch in the off position if you had it.

FONZIE

Omicron

Fonzie, JC Whitney sells cable-actuated exhaust cut outs. You could, in theory, have a good muffler shop weld one in place before the cat, and put a cat bypass pipe in place. However, I have looked at the space under the car closely, and can tell you that there is NO room for this kind of setup... you'd have to give up some serious ground clearance.

Maurice, at one time you were working with Random Technologies on a high-temperature cat that could replace the factory cat, thereby allowing one to run your stage 2 mod on the street. Did their cats wind up not being able to handle the extra heat, or are you still working on this? If so, you can sign me up for a stage 2 kit too... :D

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

Supreme Performance http://www.supremeperformance.com offers a converter called "MetalCat".
I don't think is available quite yet, but the rep at SEMA said it will be available by the end of the year.
The element is made of steel instead of ceramic and will survive up to 2200°F.

canzoomer

At 80mph you are at around 4300rpm.
We do not change anything below 3750rpm. At roughly 4,000 to 6,000 we enrich the mixture slightly, to yield about 4 to 7HP increase. This will not change much in your emissions, as the cat cleans it up the same as stock.
We have designed this to make a 14.6:1 mixture in these conditions, versus roughly a 15.6:1 to 16:1 as provided by Mazda.
Using a Mazda switch, that is normally used to control the rear fog light ( in Japanese models this is an option) we could provide the wires configured to attach this as part of the harness.
Cost would be $36 for the switch, and probably about $50 for the extra work to configure it to attach to that.
That way you would have an original switch that fits in the dash, next to the DSC and lighting control switches.
No, but one could exchange the unit to get this. The unit is not designed to be reflashed, but we can replace the ROM here with a new one with a different map.
If you wanted to send it in we will charge the difference between this version, and the one you are going to switch to, plus shipping and handling.
So, to upgrade from a Stage1 to a Stage2 setup, it will run about $350.
However bear in mind the Stage2 is NOT designed for street use.
It requires removal of the stock catalytic converter, and it also requires the installation of a small device that spoofs the O2 sensor output to prevent a CEL.
Essentially you would be trading in the control module we provide. The wiring could be left in place, as the Stage1 and Stage2 harness is identical. Everything involved in the change is in the box, and that just plugs in.
Poor. The stock configuration from Mazda does not run rich at partial throttle and lower rpm ranges. The gains to be had are mostly at high rpm and mostly full throttle operation.
This is not going to result in big fuel savings except when you play hard. In certain circumstances, as you will require less throttel to maintain speed, you may gain some mileage.

I feel that anyone who claims otherwise is BS'ing.

One could do something like disable the controls that open the third set of intake runners, but that would make the car run like a dog.
We could probably do an "economy map" but i doubt that many would be happy with it.
We plan on a multi map setup in the future, and this could be one of the options. For now, however, our kits will initially only be capable of holding one map set.
We expect to be shipping the multi-map version in the spring. Our target market for this is mainly for people who are installing boost, and who want a daily driver, as well as a performance tune. This will be a considerably more expensive unit, as it will be incorporating a controller like the Apexi FC or similar.
We are in Alberta. Edmonton and Red Deer specifically.
Mountain Time Zone.
Rust never sleeps.
As i have mentioned before i have a business, and a family, and sometimes the only time I get to catch up on correspondence is in the wee hours. Plus I deal a lot overseas in Asia, and when it is night here it is daytime over there.
As I have mentioned earlier, my motives are fairly selfish.
I want this for my car, and I figured the only way it was going to happen in a fairly prompt time frame was to do it myself.
After I started doing it and talking with people on the forums about it, I was deluged with others who were interested.

Thus it all began.

canzoomer

I do not think that it is not completely a matter that the tranny could not take the power, as a matter of the rpm.

Not too many automatic trannies can take 9,000rpm.

As the peak power is made above 6,000, and peaks at 8500, it is a matter that there was no point in them building in the third set of intake runners, and the intake crossover port, which only come into play at 6,000 and 7,200rpm respectively.

Maybe we can do one to make 10-13hp.

To do this we would need an RX-8 with AT to tune with, and some reasonable number of people who would buy this from us.

So far I have had about 4 enquiries for an AT kit, versus about 500+ people who have ORDERED our MT kit to this date.

Before I even consider this we have to satisfy these people.
Then we have to finish design and testing on our Stage2 kit.

We have aout 100+ serious requests for that version.

That is about a third of a million dollars worth of kits.

It is also a LOT of hours on the kit building, co-ordination, packing, shipping , paperwork involved in handling these orders, and so on.

It is a LOT of work!

Another factor is that we are paying for all the parts out of our pockets right now, and have not taken any money in yet!

Once we get enough shipped, and get caught up we will have some time to do more serious work on further projects.

Before we look at MT, we want to finish our work on Stage2, and on exhausts, catalytic converter replacements, and other things that are higher priorities.

Remember,we are just a couple of guys and there are only so many hours in each day.

canzoomer

It is technically possible, I guess.
Pretty tight for room to put two midpipes in, and the cat, and so on.
The direction I am following at present is to try a cat with a higher temperature rating, and a kit with a medium tune level that can work with this to make more power, but still be emissions legal, at least in some places.
The testing is going to take some time, as the only realistic way to test converter longevity is to install it and put some considerable mileage on it while monitoring it to see if the cat is still working.
I doubt we will know this with any level of certainty until well into the spring.

However, in many jurisdictions this will still not cut it, as it would fail a visual inspection, and the regulations say that you can not modify the exhaust to circumvent the stock emissions controls.

We could only sell this as a kit for off-road use.

canzoomer

Well put, and true.
To switch setups you HAVE to disconnect power from the battery to the ECU. Remember it is "live" even with the car turned off.
Think about the security system..

Then, once you switch, there is still a few minutes of varied running required for the ECU to "re-train" to the new conditions.

If you are looking for something to allow you an occasional "street kill" you should be looking at a mild nitrous kit.

But this is pretty stupid, IMHO, as it will wreck things.
And we are not doing this stuff for people to do "street kills".

OK?

We have three goals:
Short term:
To allow the RX-8 to perform as originally advertised by Mazda.

Long term:
To produce parts for people to bolt on the RX-8 to allow them to run in track events, with higher performance, and NOT on the road.

Longer term:
To provide both of these tune levels, plus the option of one for use with boost. This will be a two or three map setup, and will cost considerably more, as it requires a MUCH more sophisticated computer in it.

Omicron

Maurice, just a thought here... may be a stupid question...

With the current setup you are designing, one has to disconnect the battery to add and remove the piggyback. Then there's the "reprogramming" needed. Would it be possible to maintain power to the factory ECU somehow, to eliminate this process? If so, it might be possible to have a setup one could switch on the fly.....?

canzoomer

It is possible.
It is also really easy to cause enough disturbance to cause a check engine light to come on.
This is easy enought to clear in the operational sense, by disconnecting the battery.

However, that fault code will b stored in the ECU until cleared by a scan tool at the dealers..

One can most safely switch it with the car turned off.
As long as one does it then the result will be safe.

You should still run it a bit to get the re-train done, if you are doing this prior to an emissions check.

No Pistons

How do I go about getting myself a stage 2? I want one and I am very very interested.

Thanks
- Drew

Lock & Load

Canzoomer

Dyno run done by hymee in the australian forum showed our cars running A/F/Mixtures at 12.5

US rx8 you have stated run at 14.6 at patial throttle and at 13.2 at WOT.

How will OZ rx8 be affected by this difference in Air Fuel Mixtures on your stage 1 kit???

Can you foresee any problems ???

Thanks from kangarro 2 , i will fax order in the morning from wifes work place .

Michael.