Xeridae

Now before you turn on your flame thrower just read what I have to say and think about it objectively. Don't immediately reply to this thread. Just think about it. This thread should be about nothing but discussing JDM tuning methods. I don't care if you get 350+ HP out of your kit with a Cobb. Talk about it in your own build threads (which I do enjoy reading).

I've been doing a lot of research on the various tuning options that we have available to us outside of Japan and frankly, it's sickening. If you have a series 1 your options are basically either Mazdaedit or the bullshit Cobb AP monopoly agreement with MM. If you own a series 2 then basically all you have is Mazdaedit (I am aware that there are exceptions out there no need to note them here). Mazdaedit doesn't seem bad but it also doesn't seem like everything is understood about it yet.

So.... this got me thinking (dangerous I know) about how JDM tuners have been tuning their FI RX-8s. I decided to do some research and the results are surprising and seem to go against some of the popular beliefs out there i.e. don't use a piggy back ECU, the Greddy E-manage is crap, NA RX-8s are hard to get 200+ HP out of, the list goes on.

So here is the question. What JDM tuning methods are you familiar with and what are they doing that is different from what we have been doing? That's the topic of discussion. I think it's important to compare to help our community improve our quality of life when it comes to tuning options. Do I expect this thread to produce some sort of magical tuning option for us? No. Without at least talking about it though we will never get there..

Here is a long list of observations that RE-Amemiya did on the RX-8. It's translated using google translate so keep that in mind.They even provide examples of a couple maps although they are pretty illegible. They also talk about the difference between their ECU and the OEM ECU. If you are in Japan they charge about the equivalent of $1000 USD to tune your car with their ECU. Dyno results are also at the bottom of the page using their ECU.

RE-Amemiya Site

Here is a link to one of their maps. It looks like it's for ignition timing.

Ignition Map

Here is a thread discussing what has been done to the RE-Amemiya RX-8. Note that this car is using both the Redom Mini A and the Greddy E-manage.

https://www.rx8club.com/rx-8-multime...ot-fake-62351/

Here is another feature discussing several different RX-8s tuned by some of the big names like RE-Amemiya and AutoExe. The RE-Amemiya tuned RX-8 caught my attention because they are using what seems like a piggy back ECU called the RE Amemiya Redom Mini. They claim that just by changing the intake, exhaust and using this ECU they are getting 220HP. If it was anyone else I'd call BS but this is RE-Amemiya, the undisputed kings of rotary tuning (again there is a dyno on their site).

[ FEATURE | R32 Skyline Mayhem ] J.D.M. OPTION INTERNATIONAL

I only found one thread that barely talked about the Redom and it was about the speed limit removal model which is NOT the ECU.

https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-int...d-help-175994/

Found this link for actually purchasing the ECU. Note that there are 3 different models and the one I am talking about sepcifically that I know is used in track cars is the RE Amemiya Redom Mini A-Type about $1000 USD. They also have the Knight Sports unit and the Leg Motorsports unit which I have zero info on...

RX-8 SE3P Aero Parts / Tuning Performance Auto Parts Online Shop - Auto-Style USA - Japan Car Parts JDM Parts

Here is a thread where Takahashi says he used the Knight Sports ECU and had expected results with a dyno sheet.

https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-aft...ecu-mod-18606/

TLDR: What are JDM tuners doing that we aren't? What tools are they using? What's their tunning philosohpy versus ours?

Brettus

iTrader: (2)

As someone who has seen jdm tuned rx8s imported into my country , I have seen what they do within the ECU and experimented with their tuning methods . I can't tell you who did the tunes but I have seen a couple of cars now and the tune was near identical.This suggests to me that they were both on the same flash from one of the major tuning houses .

It was my considered opinion after experimenting along the same lines as they have done that they don't know any more than we do and the results they quote at times are nothing more than advertising bullshit. One of the articles you linked had numbers that were just laughable.

Good idea for a thread though

Xeridae

Well that was easy. I just have never seen anyone else bother to say this. Thanks Brettus.

SenpaiInTheSheets

I don't mean to resurrect a dead thread here but this is interesting to me, because I live in japan and I also am located 20 mins away from RE Amemiya. I own a 2007 rx-8 type s mazdaspeed version which is now boosted with the Greddy kit. I am still using the e-manage. I would however most likely upgrade to a fcon vpro or the rendom in the near future. When it comes to rotary engines there is one company that stands above the rest, and that is re amemiya. To put it simply, the "jdm" tuning methods you talk about is actually really the way the Japanese mindset is. They don't build or tune a car to have incredible horsepower or torque. They build cars that will last the entire event. You have all these shops trying to build crazy numbers but within 2 months that car will take a ****. Most shops here will take an engine management system and work with it, the FAMspeed turbo kit which is pretty much the Greddy kit, comes with an fcon vpro and most rx8's that are FI here are using the vpro, they are getting 300hp on the dyno with the FAMspeed kit.
It really comes down to understanding what you have to work with, and making it work.


Oh, and none of the boosted rx8's that I have seen have the greddy fixes posted by MM.
The Japanese strive for perfection. And it shows.

Xeridae

Which is basically what got me questioning US tuning methods with FI in the first place. I am going to see if I can find some more info about this FAMspeed kit and the vpro. I really need to learn Japanese... I might PM you about a couple things if you don't mind.

SenpaiInTheSheets

Be my guest! It would be my pleasure!

The only thing about the vpro is that it needs to be tuned by a hks certified tuner, and that in itself is the hardest part. In the states I'm sure it's very rare to find an hks certified tuner who can tune a renesis to good spec. The best advice I can say about learning to read Japanese, I still am not fluent in Japanese, and my reading skills suck. I am learning everyday. But find a website that talks about what you are looking for and copy and paste the Japanese into google translate, you can use google chrome to have it automatically translate. Of course the translation will come out with some gibberish sometimes but you will understand the gist of it. The sentence structure is different so when something is translated it sometimes comes out all fricked.

TeamRX8

iTrader: (25)

It's been said many times. People with a JDM mindset are typically not well informed (nothing personal). The Renesis engines from the top builders in Japan don't make any more power than the top builders in the US, AU, etc. and the tuning methods don't accomplish any more either. Why should they? Ultimately once you access to the maps then that's it. There are no hidden easter eggs or magical secrets passed down from an ancient race of superior beings. The method used to access the maps is not all that relevant. That's more or less what's being asked by this thread.

Two others not mentioned; the Adaptronic piggyback ECU and then there is also MoTeC, which is a racing only standalone ECU and they know the Renesis setup inside out. Ultimately they don't really make any more power than the factory ECU methods within certain parameters, they just free you from the limitations of the factory programming with additional features like ditching the DBW electronic throttle with mechanical, alcohol fuel compensation, etc.

I have a great love and respect for Japan; culture, language, food, drink, etc. General society there is not really geared with a DIY thought process i.e. only a certified specialist can possibly do it well. An electrician will be called to make a house call and change a light bulb. A little exaggerated, but maybe not so much. There are distinct cultural differences at play is all I am really trying to convey. If you have a basic understanding about general society there then you will also understand their advertising methods of fancy colors & names, exaggerated claims, etc. is all geared towards presenting a superior image to a not so well informed customer base.

It clearly works, no?



.

Brettus

iTrader: (2)

The MM greddy fixes are no big deal ... In fact , only fix 2 (re the connection on the actuator hose ) is relevant today anyway . I can tell you though , If fix 2 isn't done the turbo will be out of control ... full stop!

Also ... I've seen a couple of turbo 8's imported from japan , both of which were the biggest piles of crap I've had the misfortune to ride in .

Brettus

iTrader: (2)

I really think you are undervaluing the work that has been done on this forum to find what works with these engines............

SenpaiInTheSheets

Team, I have to say I do agree with you 100% I guess I should have wordedy post earlier differently, it's all about what works. And people in the states are making as much power as cars here as well. People know the Cobb ap in the states. And it works well. It all depends on who you go to anywhere in the world, there are magnificent brains every where. And granted all the turbo 8's I have seen have the money where it is needed. I can comment more after I take my car to get tuned but that won't be for a little while.

Brettus, as I may only have 3 posts and have joined recently. I have been reading this forum for a year now and you have wonderful knowledge that had helped me with my build even. And as you have said there is not much of a difference between the tuning, you have good cars and crap cars everywhere. Just because it is from japan doesn't mean it is a mystery machine lol. But the tuning methods some what differ than what I have seen on this forum. And the rx8 is a big turd when it comes to drawing out more power. Just like you have "sat down" and did your research to make your car how it is, which is what everyone should do. But not every shop in the world is gonna be like "today we are going to see how to make the renesis not a turd to power up" what I wanted to tell the OP was that there is different methods used. More "piggy backing" and ""stand alones"" rather than AP's.. But now that I think about it I probably said nothing like that lol.

nycgps

iTrader: (1)

ok, time to put my 0.02 down

as some of you have known, I moved out of NYC to Hong Kong. and this market is heavily affected by the JDM stuff (duh) Locals here also believe in the term "JDM specialist" and they believe that when it comes to Rotary Engines, companies in Japan are god and no one is even close to them ------------- rrrrrrrrrIIIIGGGHHHTTTT

one example is, they "just started" to be sorta comfortable in porting Renesis engine and offers them to the public. One of the recent startup, it was started by a lead tech who left Knight Sports about 2 yrs ago, was bragging about his so called "side port tune", I was like, seriously ? this ? RB had it years ago. funny thing is ppl thought he is god of rotary already.

another example is --- Ceramic Apex seal, Amemiya is the first and only company that I know of actually starts selling them, at outrageous price of course, I would say a 100% markup (or more) , sorry buddy I've been using it for years and my "rotary age" is just a mere 9 yrs.

when I told the locals here stock ECU is enough to handle Greddy turbo kit, most of them thought I was nucking futs and talking out of my ***, I was laughing my *** off cuz the so called perfect tune by one of the companies here with F-Con Vpro, the car runs alright but at times the thing bucks and of course CEL is always on with all kinds of funny codes. did I mention the engine blown a year ish later?

I was like ROFL , but hey u wanna pay extra (F-Con, tune by certified dealer, all the weirdness from piggy back ECU,etc) and its ur car, who am I to judge, right ?

I have yet to see any JDM tuned ECU but I am sure there is nothing magical about it.

they do make quality products (see my FEED header thread), but really there is nothing magical about JDM stuff.

I'm fairly sure couple of people here (yeah, talking about YOU guys ) are actually better than some of the so called JDM Rotary specialist.

Xeridae

What do you mean specifically? Tuning? I would agree that a lot of work has been done in this area and it's all valuable. That doesn't mean that this site should be the only source of information on the subject.

If we are talking about FI though this site can't tell me anything I can't read in a book on the subject. That is pretty evident when you see that just about everyone that has a build thread on the subject has done something different. Some guys claim to have 50k+ miles with a turbo and then say they have an interceptor x.

There is no consistency in the turbo owners thread either as far as what ECU they are using and what their setup is. I know you've seen it but look through this thread again. https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-maj...please-121542/

Pretty much zero consistency. Anyway this thread isn't a JDM does it better thread. It's more to understand what methods and tools they are using to compare against what we are using. That's all.

Part of the problem that is never going to be solved though is that there are really only a handful of guys on here that are honest about their results and actually know what they are talking about. By the way I consider you one of those guys.

Xeridae

The tuning mindset is vastly different in Japan. It's more about how the whole car is as a package. One of the first things they change over there is suspension. HP is only a consideration if the car feels like it is lacking it. Don't believe me?

Check out this article. FEATURE – R-MAGIC’S RX-8. FLOATS LIKE A BUTTERFLY, STINGS LIKE A BEE : 7Tune.com


By the way that lap time is absolutely insane for a car with only 240HP. Let's just assume it was in the high 1.3's that is still faster than the following cars.

Porsche 911 turbo 400ish HP
Corvette Z06 400HP
McLaren F1 550HP
Honda NSX 270HP

Xeridae

That's not exactly what I meant but if that is strictly what you are talking about then yes I agree.

Brettus

iTrader: (2)

I was not trying to suggest that there isn't good stuff being done elsewhere .

Good luck with that

Well , up until a couple of years ago ...we didn't know what the best solution was . Look at how old the posts are in that thread. It has become very evident over time that flash tuning with the Cobb (and more recently M/E) is the way to go for most setups . Adaptronics has come along lately as well and is also proving to work well .
Before that , there were many things that came out that didn't work particularly well . I don't expect you have read through all the BS we went through in the early days to find these things out.

Xeridae

There is quite a lot of it I did try to read through it but after about the 50th page or so it does get old.

As far as options outside of Japan, the community has definitely found the best tools. You might say well then why look for other options but you are no stranger to trying new and unexplored options with the work you've done with Mazdaedit.

I didn't see a single reference to this Redom mini so I am probably going to just get it, test it out and let you know how it goes. Maybe I will actually be able to contribute some info to this community (something I didn't think was possible at this point) even if it turns out the Redom is a bust at least we'll know.

Brettus

iTrader: (2)

I can assure you I would have just gone for the Accessport if it was an option for me .

nycgps

iTrader: (1)

stock suspension was originally designed to fit around the world's roads, not just japan. considered they have beautiful roads in Japan, all the shops in Japan need to do is stiffen up the suspension and that puts them into "god like" mode.

and does the car you mentioned have a tuned suspension setup?

a tuned NSX will eat a Tuned rx8 for breakfast. that's all I wanna say.

TeamRX8

iTrader: (25)

I understand that you want them to lay it out on the table easy for you, and free of course, with a step by step, paint by the numbers layout. Even the ignition tuning link you posted only showed the OE timing map up to about 0.88 load (about 2/3 of the ignition vs load map). They are clearly working from a basic hex code deciphering program and make their living off of it. Regardless of whether it's significant or not they don't see a general enthusiast as a philanthropic opportunity to be charitable with.

Car tuning is not a Betty Crocker tune-in-a-box that you buy at Walmart which only requires you to add a few eggs and some vegetable oil along with several simple instructions to follow. If you aren't will to pay a tuning house to provide a meal for you then it's not even as simple as a cookbook recipe. Instead you get to play chef and use whatever ingredients are available or to your own choosing from which to cook up your own feast.

This thread is essentially asking how to boil water.

SenpaiInTheSheets

The roads here are not as good as you think fyi. The highways yes, but for me who lives in Chiba prefecture. Will tell you other wise. Not to mention that the roads barely fit two cars on them.

nycgps

iTrader: (1)

you don't wanna know how bad it is in other so called major city ... like New York ... it broke my suspension, bent wheels, etc

nothing is perfect, I drove in Japan once and I gotta say compare to NYC, ANYwhere in Japan is like heaven

Xeridae

You've said this in various forms on pretty much every thread on these forums. You seem to think that everyone is just asking for you to spell things out for them with your clearly superior intellect. Not only are you grossly over confident about what you think you know, you're ridiculously over confident about what you think other people know.

Don't worry I'm definitely not asking you for any advice or opinion on the subject so you can move on to another thread were you try your best to belittle everyone else.

TeamRX8

iTrader: (25)

Your perception of my intellect and subject knowledge level is not the issue, your inability to focus on relevance is ...

instead of posting this question on a forum I dove in 8 years ago and dumped many countless hours of research and effort trying to find out everything I could on the subject. I'm not sure how you suddenly know enough to argue the subject with anyone telling you anything except what you want to hear?

otherwise if you want to play forum dictator I'm sure the Internet Brands is willing to entertain a suitably generous offer for you to have exclusive ownership & control