PUR NRG

Just put in a new set of coilovers. Remote reservoirs are nice but require additional installation steps beyond the "normal" ones for shock install. http://www.hi-impact.org/ryang/modif...ock_moton.html has the full write-up. You can see all my other DIYs at http://www.hi-impact.org/ryang/modify/modify.html. PM me with any additional questions, feedback or suggestions you might have to make these DIYs better.
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shinronin

nice. mine are shipping this week. where did you order yours from?

i can't believe no spanner wrench is available at all... can that be true?

the other DIYS on your site are also valuable.

PUR NRG

Thanks for the compliments. For me it was a choice between Jason Saini and a local company TC Design, who is also an authorized Moton shock rebuilder. Ultimately I chose to support my local store. If they weren't around I wouldn't hesitate to buy from Jason.

It turns out Tony from TC Design and Jason know each other, and Tony asked Jason what spring rates I should use. Jason knew I was the customer in question (no one else was purchasing them at the time) yet provided that info to a "competitor" without hesitation. I consider that a class act.

According to TC Design, Moton does not make lock wrenches with the round end required for the lock rings they ship with the Club Sport. I have no idea why.

The Club Sports are still a relatively new item for the RX-8, and I think there's a minor bug that needs to be worked out of the package. The front shock bottom brackets that fit over the control arm are thicker than stock. That means the OEM bolt isn't long enough and you need to get a replacement that's 10mm longer. Either grade 10.9 or ideally 12.9. For the price of the kit they should include it as part of the package.
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Kitchen Measures

shinronin

i bought mine thru jason @ team MER. 700/400 is a combo jason and i have kicked around, but we're still working that out.

i'll double check with jason on the spanner wrench. that boggles the mind.

great tip on the longer bolts too. thanks!

shinronin

some questions on your DIY...

re: the lower spring collar and the lack of a moton spanner wrench, i surmised and jason agreed that one could just use a punch in one of the holes and rotate the collar. furthermore, jason mentioned if the car's jacked up they should be able to be rotated by hand.

re: the rears it was my understanding from jason that at least one pair of the retainer bushing and washer combos had to be drilled out (enlarged) to accommodate the larger shaft diameter (22mm). did you have to perform that step?

also, why did you remove the rear spring seat rubber? was that just your preference?

PUR NRG

Actually TC Design uses a pair of punches as well on the collars. Unfortunately I see one major problem: the lateral force is concentrated on two points. Here's an exagerrated diagram:

| /|
| / |
|/ |

It isn't so bad on the bottom but you're likely to deform the opening. Do that hard or often enough and you round off the hole to the point it's unusable.

Jason has more experience with coilovers than me, but my understanding is the two lock rings should be snug against each other--after all, that's the point of a lock ring. If they are only finger tight then over time vibration can loosen or rotate them.

For the parts shown in my picture, no. The two washers, two rubber bushings and one metal collar fit over the shaft. The shaft is stepped down to a smaller diameter at the tip. This stepped portion is smaller in diameter on the rear shocks than it is on the fronts. Maybe this was a design change after Jason worked up the original fitment?

I was not able to get the white plastic cup to fit over the shock tower with the seat rubber in place. I'm concerned that having just the plastic between the spring and shock tower would cause the plastic to split over time, but Tony assured me that wasn't a problem. If Jason has a differing opinion then I'd really like to know.
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house wives Cam

shinronin

point taken.

it's a valid concern. i guess we'll have to see and keep an eye on them. in my experience with coilovers set screws and the like are for peace of mind. they're not positively necessary so long as some torque is present. the car's weight keeps everything in place so long as you're not doin' evil knievel jumps.

huh. could be a design change, true. i'm happy any drilling has been minimized however.

ah, i see. when jason and i spoke about rear shock mounts he said he'd prefer to leave the rubber there as opposed to a spherical bearing shock mount as per speedsource to avoid the possibility of bind. i haven't spoken to sylvain or david about this issue, but the choice may just depend on the coilover app. speedsource runs dynamic suspension coilovers.

PUR NRG

Actually this is something else I'm not esctatic about. With the JIC coilover, the spring perch height is one adjustment and the overall shock length is another. That way you have a constant spring pretension regardless of ride height. Length of shock travel is unaffected as well. With the Moton Club Sport the spring perch is also used to set ride height. I think this is a problem for the rear shocks.

If you set the rear lock rings so they're snug against the spring, the ride height is ~2" too high. The only way to adjust that is by moving the lock rings so they sit lower on the shock body. This reduces the shock travel by a corresponding amount. I don't know how bad a thing that is. It also means if you go over a bump or jack up the car the spring and plastic cup will fall off the shock tower. Tony claims both will line back up as the car settles back down, but I have my doubts. I can easily see the plastic cup not lining up and cracking between the spring and shock tower.

On the rear shock the only thing I can think of that looks like a spherical bearing is the bottom attachment point. The top doesn't have anything that looks like a sphere. Can you elaborate, because what you're saying doesn't make sense to me.
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woodstock

nice writeup, awesome suspension as well!

TeamRX8

iTrader: (25)

I never realized that was your website, good job

however, no real racing shock uses the double adjustment method because it adds considerable weight, that's what helper springs are for. I can't believe they didn't provide any, if not that's pretty shabby. WRT ride height vs travel, if the shock length is set properly this is a non-issue. It shouldn't have to accommodate a +/- 2" height change. The lengths should be determined and set based on the intended ride height.

a rubber shock mount overtightened will bind, a spherical bearing will only bind if it seizes which I've never heard of one doing. The high end racing shocks have very tight control on low speed movements and velocities. The only way to squeeze that extra performance out is with a tight spherical bearing. A rubber mount will move and counter effective low speed control, unless it's overtightened and then it will bind which causes excessive shaft & seal wear. The Moton Sport is a lesser version of their true racing shock, so perhaps it doesn't have as effective of low speed control and is not as hindered by a rubber mount ...

and the reason you don't see more of these is because a few classes/categories don't allow cutting a big hole in the chassis for the reservoir to pass through, that's why I have Koni 2812's, Koni does not use reservoirs, in fact they oppose using them for performance reasons

I wouldn't mind having a set of those front upper aluminum shock mounts though ..

shinronin

sorry i didn't reply sooner PUR NRG. you and i are going through the coilover teething process with the moton clubsports. TC design and team MER agree that a rear helper spring isn't absolutely necessary given that in our apps (track and autox) we don't get four wheels off the ground much. it is indeed an issue when raising and lowering the car on jack stands or a lift, but you just have to be careful when lowering the car back down. yes, a helper spring would be nice. the lack of one certainly isn't 'shabby'.

teamx8 addressed the rubber vs. spherical mount. team MER doesn't use them and it certainly hasn't hurt their T3 rx-8 or their mx-5 cup cars. if you're going for the very nth degree of suspension performance, then, yes, spherical mounts are the way to go, but the existence of absence of spherical mounts isn't a boon or a bane to the setup.

as for the moton clubsports themselves, teamrx8 you're being disingenuous in the extreme to say they're a lesser version of their 'true' racing shock. if the 2812's had a bigger brother with 16 adjustments instead of 8 would yours be lesser? shock choice depends on the app. when you look at what the big teams are using in ALMS, world challenge and grand AM there are pretty much three/four brands: moton, ohlins, dynamic, and penske. koni is a title sponsor of grand am now, but i'm not aware of a rush of teams changing shocks. has speedsource changed over from dynamic? i somehow doubt it.

if you like we can have a thread debating koni vs. moton, but this is a DIY thread dedicated to, you know, doing it yourself. let's keep the value judgements on shocks out of it.

PUR NRG

Thanks. Yes, on this forum I can be a dick with regard to telling people to use the search button, but I'm a helpful dick once they find stuff like this I've put out.

These two statements sound contradictory. Can you clarify "double adjustment method"? Regarding the chassis hole, fortunately that isn't a problem with the RX-8.

I would agree for true racing shocks that are set low to the ground, but street use seems like it requires more adjustment to allow each driver to set height based on their tolerance to scrapes. Having said that, I think Moton's answer for Club Sports is poor.
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Daihatsu leeza

shinronin

PUR NRG what are the specs on your eibachs? free length? ID?

also will you update/add pics for steps 5-7 in your DIY?

PUR NRG

For totally unintended reasons, I tend to be on the receiving end of a lot of teething problems. But there are worse things in life.


I strongly disagree with this. Hopping over speed bumps is a frequent occurance. Autocross means you're changing wheels/tires every two weeks, and frequent DIY oil changes and other maintenance also adds to how often the car is in the air. How exactly is one person supposed to make sure both springs are seated correctly when lowering the car? At home I either jack up the front or the rear. At autocross you jack up one side. In both cases two wheels are off the ground at once.

Actually I agree with teamrx8--the Club Sports are a lesser version. You can argue the coarser adjustment settings don't make a difference, but the Club Sports are place more emphasis on endurance than performance. Racers rebuild their shocks on a frequent basis, just like top drag racers rebuild their engine after every run. Guys like us don't want that and are willing to give up some performance for reduced maintenance cycles.

Personally I find value in having this discussion regardless of location. I don't mind if it happens here, and doesn't detract from the DIY link in the first post. I find all of this very informative, so let's keep the conversation going!
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Hayley

PUR NRG

It's whatever TC Design gave me. I can check later tonight.

After I actually complete those steps. My problem is having a turbo means routing the front right reservoir requires partial intake dissasembly and I haven't had a chance to do that yet.
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shinronin

for those of autox'ing in street tire classes (teamrx8 and i run in STU), we don't have to change our tires. if you're swapping wheels/tires from street rubber to race rubber and then back again then, yes, it'd be a pain. i'm not trying to minimize the issue, but i'm also wondering if your issue has to do at least in part with your spring lengths which is why i asked.

well then lets bust out the shock dynos and have at it my point regarding moton motorsport vs. clubsport vs. 2812 is that moton and koni have a very different approach to shock design and construction. comparing them isn't exactly apples to apples. my point was that the 2812 and moton clubsports have the same number of clicks. of course the clubsports will have a coarser curve compared to the motorsports. whether that makes them 'lesser' depends on your app. for autox it doesn't make them lesser. for road racing it does.

heh, ok, it's your thread. i just hate to see threads go way off topic. hopefully we can keep it on topic and civil.

shinronin

cool, do let us know.

ah, gotcha.

PUR NRG

I missed that part. I was referring to Clubsport as "lessor" than Motorsport because when it comes to all-out performance, I (perhaps naively) think Motorsport as a "race" shock is better than "street/race".

In one sense the answer is yes, but I don't think that is the main problem. Here's what I see in a nutshell:

The Club Sports do not have a threaded body which allows you to independantly adjust ride height separate from spring pretension. Adjusting spring perch height as a means of adjusting ride height is, in my opinion, a hack. I will state up front my experience with coilovers is limited--except for these Club Sports and JIC Magic's FLT-A2 I have never dealt with them before.

When assembling the Club Sports, only the bottom spring perch is adjustable. The top perch is fixed in location. When setting the bottom perch, I put it snug (one turn tigher than touching) against the spring. After doing so, the front shock assembly is roughly the same overall length (top attachment point to bottom attachment point) as the JIC's. When I do this with the rears, the Club Sport overall length is ~2.5" longer. This means the rear sits higher even than stock.

The only way to lower the ride height is to lower the bottom spring perch. There's maybe 3" of thread left on the shock body before it bottoms out so you don't have much room to adjust, even using this hack. Doing this means the spring is not firmly seated against the top perch unless it's under load, so any time you jack up the rear the spring and plastic up flop around.

The plastic part has only a 3/8" lip where it seats against the shock tower. So even lowering to OEM ride height means that plastic is going to flop around. When weight is put back on the rear wheels I think there is a good chance the plastic won't be seated properly around the shock tower and it will get damaged as a result.

With this concern in mind, how are you rationally expected to keep the spring and cup properly aligned while lowering the car? At first glance that seems to require one person per wheel and another manning the jack. And for those at each wheel, how do they ensure proper alignment? They'd have to poke their head under the car just to see the spring. Doing that while lowering the car does not strike me as good safety practice.

I'm not familar with helper springs, but it may be a weak-*** spring on top of the normal one whose only purpose is to keep the plastic up mated against the shock tower would prevent this situation. Is that what you were thinking?
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Red Devil

Out of curiosity, what spring rates did you settle on for this setup? Also, at the track are you driving on street tires or R comps?

shinronin

hmm, i don't want to presume too much given that my motons haven't arrived yet (argh...), but perhaps you could take some pics of the rears?

edit: i re-read your post and i think we're having terminology issues here. on the rears when you lower the black lock ring down the shock body what exactly happens?

shinronin

we both run 700/400. PUR NRG mentions his spring rates at his site.

my front and rear eibach springs are both 2.5" ID. afa free length the fronts are 8" and the rears are 7".

PUR NRG

Look at the first photo attached. With the black lock ring at the bottom part of the threaded body, there is a gap between the plastic collar on top and the bottom of the shock tower. The second photo shows that gap more clearly.
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shinronin

is that a '14' to the right of the word 'eibach' i.e. 1400.xxx.xxxx? if so that's your problem right there. your rear spring's free length is 14" which is way too long. the rear spring i got from team MER is 7" long.

PUR NRG

Both front and rear springs are 8" long, 2.5" ID. So unfortunately that isn't the problem.
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shinronin

hmm. that isn't a 14 i'm seeing there? any chance you could take a closeup of the script on the spring? what information/documentation assures you your springs are 8" long? just trying to narrow down what's going on.

fyi, my motons arrived this morning finally. i won't be able to install them for ~1 week, but i'll see about fitting up a rear spring at least to see about shock body placement and what full droop might look like.