Magic8

I really like the STS Turbo with the remote mounting. I think it's an elegant solution. A lot of the heat problem in a front mounted turbo seemed to address by this setup.

The problem is they don't have a kit for the 8 and I live in a small town called Cincinnati that doesn't have a dealer. The nearest one is in Chicago, but they are used to tuning Vipers and Corvettes, so I have tune the car myself. The other problem is I have to do the piping myself (or find a shop to do it for me.) My car is in winter storage so I haven't really thought about the intake piping.

I have a CZ so I think I can manage the ECU tune. I already have some experience tuning the fuel-air, ignition is something I haven't played too much with.

So to summarize:
1) STS indicated that the kit will cost $2990 without the piping.
2) I need tune the car myself. I don't think this is a Herculean effort, but it will require some time.
3) Need to fabricate piping. Which is okay because I can customize it to look really stealthy, i.e. hide the turbo setup behind sheet metal shaped to look like a muffler :D.
4) I will have STS's support becuase they are interested in seeing how their product react in an 8.
5) If I do this I will be sacrificing my 8 and myself for the good of the forum.

What do you think, do it or not do it?

AvatarQAZ

One step ahead of you .

I have been talking to STS for some time now on adapting their universal kit to a kit for the rx8. I am going to be visiting my ATL dealer (2 hours away) in the near future to start conjuring up the turbo demons for the 8 after they answer the 15 questions I had to adapting this turbo system to the 8. I am going to say that the STS kit is going to require a little bit more tweaking than just bending pipes and tuning. But that is a start for it.

Of course, it is going to require some tuning to get it running correctly of course. But that isnt a tough manner to chore around until you start getting above the 5 psi mark. I would recommend you get in touch with the Chicago dealer asap and be armed and ready with all the relelvant questions. Hopefully, if more than one owner offers up their car to the system, that can be beneficial for all as pricing would have to be competitive... and the market will have more than just the monopolizing greddy kit on it.

Magic8

Cool! Glad to hear I'm not the only one thinking about it. It's always better to undertake a task like this with company.

What 15 questions do you have in mind? What kind of tweaking were you thinking about? I'm trying to fiqure out what I am missing. The piping and ignition tuning for me would seem to be the more challenging task, although ignition tuning seems to optional in low boost application.

My ideal would be this turbo setup with a ethanol injection (tank in the trunk) to cool the intake charge :D :D :D

AvatarQAZ

Well, i can not remember every question I asked. I am still waiting on replies to all of them. But this is the general idea:

They recently turbocharged an Integra Type-R. I wanted to see the results on that. It would be a similar design to the Integra, but certainly not alike.

Since they are using the factory oil weight (5w20) would this weight have any bearing on the ability of the turbo to be cooled?

If so (to the above) adding a second oil reservoir (also optional, 2nd inline oil cooler)

Possibly fabbing a new header and new cat if the stock exhaust isnt up to the chore of dallying up the boost (I HIGHLY suspect this WONT be the case. But, this one can not be answered until I take the car to ATL)

~10:1 compression. Doesnt like to be boosted. Possibility of changing timing or piggybacking the ECU to mod AFR. This will also address many other issues and appears/is going to be necessary.

All I can think of off the top of my head. All the above questions are just basic prior to us jacking up the car and doing some tests. We are surely not going to throw a turbo on there that cant be cooled and will blow up the engine. I am sure more questions will arise (with of course, both parties scratching their heads with the terrible question "why") as we begin to fab and install. In all likelihood, i see a great possibility in this turbo and our 8. Ethanol injection=turbogasm .

BTW: I am not affiliated with STS in any way.

mysql101

maybe this is a dumb question, but for $3k, you're getting a product not meant for the rx8, not tuned for it, needs parts made to install... yet the greddy kit costs the same, is already tuned, and there is no need to do anything besides install. Why bother with STS?

epitrochoid

by the time the exhaust gets back there, it's lost much of it's thermal energy, which in combination with the excessive piping greatly increases lag. sounds like an aweful lot of complexity just to get the turbo out of the engine bay. OEM's pay millions to design perfectly functional turbo cars with the turbo (or two) right up front. i'd go with what works...

AvatarQAZ

One of the main attractions, for me at least, is the fact that I can take it off as I please. Secondly, it is another option. I hate paddling down river... too easy to just sit in the boat if you ask me. It is better for just about everyone if more options are released. Also, this kit, as stated above, could be taken off for warranty work and installed again within a matter of hours. Surely a lure for those of us who dont have deep deep pockets but have power cravings.

Overall though, I think this kit has greater growing potential simply by its design. If it is possible to create a turbo that is mounted AFTER the cat, there-by making it emissions legal, that has similar qualities to that of an intake mounted turbo (lag, power, etc), then WHY NOT?

AvatarQAZ

You read too much into it sir... by my natural being, I get my hands dirty in whatever project I may be involved with at the time. I surely do not have the time being a military officer to involve myself in any other matters besides my personal life (hobbies... such as playing with cars) and my work. Remember, I stated BOTH parties.

And the above point about the system has been WIDELY debated on this forum.

Magic8

Actually there are at least threads on the remote turbo issues and why it will work, search "STS turbo". Check out www.ststurbo.com for the "Two and A Garage" episode with their system on a Camaro and dyno results without ECU tune. No lag and almost 150 hp with 5psi without ECU tune. Sounds ludicrous until you watch the dyno chart.


Advantages I see with the STS
1) It's cat-back so the exhaust gas is already cleaned by the cat. Emissions friendlier
2) Lot less bends in the piping. This equated to less pressure drop. The drop due to length of pipe is pretty minimal compare to 90 deg bends. At least this is what I remembered from fluids 9 years ago.
3) Can run a FMIC-less setup because the intake pipe under the car will act like a intercoller. This equate to less restriction
4) No heat issue under the hood. I don't have to worry about heat due to the turbo.
5) True cold air intake - not sure if its important in turbo applications but it's got to better than under the hood air.
6) It's different and in my opinion innovative. Definitely outside the box thinking like the rotary engine.
7) The rotary seems to perfect for this setup.


Of course it all comes down to cost-benefit analysis. Thanks for the input though. Sometimes when you are excited by an idea it's hard to see faults.

Rx7Roadster

1)Emissions has nothing to do with turbo placement. Please show me documentation otherwise.
2)You will see a significant pressure drop from the length of intake piping. I dont think it will be an issue though.
3)The intake pipe under the car wont act like an intercooler. Remember air gets hot when it is compressed and a long round pipe doesnt do very well as a heat exchanger.
4)True
5)True
6)True
7)That has yet to be proven.

Now Im not saying dont try it or dont do it because I think it is a good idea and I always like to see new things tried. I was just pointing out some things that I disagree with.

brillo

emissions has alot to do with turbo placement depending on the engine, if you cool the gases down to much with a turbo, the cat won't get hot enough to work. This is why Mazda is going with a supercharger with the FI MS8.

The pressure drop from the length is a non issue. if look at the turbo piping length for the greddy kit they are prolly pretty close, the greddy kit just snakes around more. The piping back will act as a decent intercooler (really more an intercooler effect), but given the turbo location, the gases being forced back won't be as hot in the first place.

the STS is a neat idea. Its not for everyone, as I think it will work best in the low to mid boost range if your trying to just use the piping as an intercooler. I would see if you can get the universal kit down in price. For $2,990, what are the giving you other than the turbo/wastegate and oil system? If you could find out what turbo they use, you could just copy the design.

MrH

If the gases cool down too much, then yes, that cat could run the risk of not getting hot enough, though I doubt that is much concern. I'm not quite sure why you think placement of the turbo is going to affect the exhaust temperatures. Every turbo can run the risk of not running hot enough. The exhaust temperature should be the same, regardless of the pressure of the turbo.

Magic8

Brillo,

I think that is another good options. I know it's a Garrett turbo with a Tial wastegate, don't know specifically the size, although it's probably small. The design is definitely very simple. Do you have a suggestion on where to purchase just the turbo?

The link below is what's included.
http://www.ststurbo.com/what_s_included

rotarygod

Wrong!!! I answered that very thoroughly in the first STS thread. Go with what works? It is a design that works. Drop in on LS1.com or LS1tech.com and ask some actual users what they think. Piston vs rotary engine type also does not play a role in whether it would work or not.

brillo

ok, I though you said piping wasn't included, which didn't sound right to me. Obiously, some custom piping to finish the job will be needed. When Rotarygod and I had my car on a lift, I walked around under it trying to figure out how the STS would work. There is plenty of room in the muffler area, running the pipe wouldn't be to tough up to the engine, I just can't figure out how to get the pipe into the engine bay from under the car, there's just not a nice hole thats easy to run pipe through. I'm sure its doable, you just don't have the massive space a truck does.

I really like this idea, its the only turbo system I'd really consider if I did a turbo. I'm more likely going to go the S/C route, but for a reliable low boost system, I think it has real potential.

brillo

while working under the hood earlier weighing various stock components, I droped a nut while removing the battery. My pain = your gain. After removing the stock battery and battery tray, I found a hole right buy the right engine mount that would be big enough (I think) to run the piping back up to the intake.

you'd have to relocate or go with a light weight battery to get the tray outta the way, but thats no big deal. That to me was the only major problem I saw with the install hopefully solved.

rotarygod

You're forgetting that the intake could come out since it is now in the back of the car. Plenty of room there.

brillo

true, with the air box out there is room, but i didn't recall see a hole through the diffuser so you could run the pipe back easily.