Should a novice own a turbo/sc ?
01-26-2008, 04:40 PM
#26
Even so, the GReddy tune has been addressed a multitude of ways and even adding the Int-X for a "fool-proof" install still leaves you with an easier, cheaper and more reliable and powerful solution out of the box with a confirmed, unquestionable upgrade path to far superior power and drivability
$3500 for the greddy kit = Makes more torque and is far cheaper than the SC.
Drop in another $1600 for the turbo upgrade, and you'll make far more torque (195 vs 260), more hp, and is still cheaper than the SC.
Even if you add $1500 for the int-x, the total above comes to $6600, which is still less than the Pettit II CS $7144.
So.... for more money, you get less hp, torque, and slower acceleration. And that's if you're going by the manufacturer's dyno charts. I haven't seen a single user posted dyno that verifies the numbers for the SC.
01-26-2008, 05:15 PM
#28
^But Jason, you forgot that it makes that really cool Whiney sound people love!!
And to the OP: I would suggest not going FI until you either find a local shop/person who is reputable and can tune/install and repair your turbo/SC/car, or get out there, read, pick up a wrench, and do it yourself. We all weren't born with this knowledge, we just went out and learned it and did it (and not always in that order).
And to the OP: I would suggest not going FI until you either find a local shop/person who is reputable and can tune/install and repair your turbo/SC/car, or get out there, read, pick up a wrench, and do it yourself. We all weren't born with this knowledge, we just went out and learned it and did it (and not always in that order).
01-26-2008, 05:18 PM
#29
And that is a testimonial.
However, Mysql101 doesn't even address the install aspect of it.
Both systems are not going to be installed by my mother. Not even close.
I'd even say they wouldn't be installed by the typical enthusiast.
Any FI system - regardless of whether or not it is sold as "bolt-on" - is not going to be "bolt-on".
Even if it was truly "bolt -on" (and oil filter is "bolt-on"; even an intake is barely "bolt-on"), it would be irresponsible to suggest that you can just slap it on there and expect it to be nominal, let alone safe or even completely functional.
That said, a properly engineered kit should contain everything needed to make it run out of the box. MazSport and GReddy are the only systems we've seen that actually deliver on that promise.
The available S/C kits don't even have sufficient testimonial content to suggest that they are "bolt-on".
Certainly, more S/Cs are vaporware than anything else. Do you know anyone with the DNA/MazdaTrix system self-installed?
Were still waiting on the AxialFlow and Hymee. The HKS never made it to the retail channel.
They just aren't out there, so to use them for comparison is ridiculous.
Diversity in the marketplace would be a great thing right now - especially from the S/C manufacturers. Everyone would benefit, regardless of their choice.
But if you had $5k - $10k burning a hole in your pocket right now, your choices are extremely limited.
However, Mysql101 doesn't even address the install aspect of it.
Both systems are not going to be installed by my mother. Not even close.
I'd even say they wouldn't be installed by the typical enthusiast.
Any FI system - regardless of whether or not it is sold as "bolt-on" - is not going to be "bolt-on".
Even if it was truly "bolt -on" (and oil filter is "bolt-on"; even an intake is barely "bolt-on"), it would be irresponsible to suggest that you can just slap it on there and expect it to be nominal, let alone safe or even completely functional.
That said, a properly engineered kit should contain everything needed to make it run out of the box. MazSport and GReddy are the only systems we've seen that actually deliver on that promise.
The available S/C kits don't even have sufficient testimonial content to suggest that they are "bolt-on".
Certainly, more S/Cs are vaporware than anything else. Do you know anyone with the DNA/MazdaTrix system self-installed?
Were still waiting on the AxialFlow and Hymee. The HKS never made it to the retail channel.
They just aren't out there, so to use them for comparison is ridiculous.
Diversity in the marketplace would be a great thing right now - especially from the S/C manufacturers. Everyone would benefit, regardless of their choice.
But if you had $5k - $10k burning a hole in your pocket right now, your choices are extremely limited.
Last edited by MazdaManiac; 01-26-2008 at 05:27 PM.
01-26-2008, 05:19 PM
#30
Even looking at the torque graph, I don't know if the Pettit can generate more acceleration under 3k than the MM turbo upgrade. It would be interesting to see. I now get a full 10 psi at 4,000 rpm on the dot, and can hold that to redline. I think I can move it down further to 3,500 rpm if I messed with it more.
01-26-2008, 06:01 PM
#32
The Professor
lets refer back to my first post
I would suggest a supercharger. Pretty straightforward install, low risk.
If anyone is going to bash my statement, can you disprove my null hypothesis?
Please show me how it is not more straightforward and less of a risk than a turbo install.
I never said anything about it being the most efficient choice. Nor did I say that it netted the best bang for the buck.
I just said, easy install and low risk. Please tell me how this is "absolute bullshit"
I would suggest a supercharger. Pretty straightforward install, low risk.
If anyone is going to bash my statement, can you disprove my null hypothesis?
Please show me how it is not more straightforward and less of a risk than a turbo install.
I never said anything about it being the most efficient choice. Nor did I say that it netted the best bang for the buck.
I just said, easy install and low risk. Please tell me how this is "absolute bullshit"
01-26-2008, 06:55 PM
#34
The Professor
01-26-2008, 07:07 PM
#35
That is not acceptable.
The turbo vs. supercharger debate is already concluded on pure data. Has that made it go away? Of course not.
So when you throw obfuscatory statements like "S/C is safer and easier" at people who are obviously not held sway by actual, factual statements, they are going to use your word as proof.
So, prove it:
Show us step-by-step how an S/C install is even comparable or how - in a quantifiable way - the S/C installation is low risk.
Last edited by MazdaManiac; 01-26-2008 at 07:10 PM.
01-26-2008, 07:08 PM
#36
heh. Im not bashing you, static.
I just wanted to know how you figure sc is safer. There is risk to both. If you run 8 psi with bad gas, the result will be the same on both systems. If your timing is too advanced, again, the same result. It isn't as though the sc produces softer boost that can't hurt the engine
if anything, the turbo has less moving parts and less that can break, much like the renesis itself.
I just wanted to know how you figure sc is safer. There is risk to both. If you run 8 psi with bad gas, the result will be the same on both systems. If your timing is too advanced, again, the same result. It isn't as though the sc produces softer boost that can't hurt the engine
if anything, the turbo has less moving parts and less that can break, much like the renesis itself.
01-26-2008, 07:50 PM
#37
The Professor
No, lets not. Because this claim is going to get raised over and over again and when it is not confronted straight on, people with their own agenda are going to claim the aversion to the argument as a win.
That is not acceptable.
The turbo vs. supercharger debate is already concluded on pure data. Has that made it go away? Of course not.
So when you throw obfuscatory statements like "S/C is safer and easier" at people who are obviously not held sway by actual, factual statements, they are going to use your word as proof.
So, prove it:
We have videos, pictures, testimonials, DIYs and actual experience with turbo installs.
Show us step-by-step how an S/C install is even comparable or how - in a quantifiable way - the S/C installation is low risk.
That is not acceptable.
The turbo vs. supercharger debate is already concluded on pure data. Has that made it go away? Of course not.
So when you throw obfuscatory statements like "S/C is safer and easier" at people who are obviously not held sway by actual, factual statements, they are going to use your word as proof.
So, prove it:
We have videos, pictures, testimonials, DIYs and actual experience with turbo installs.
Show us step-by-step how an S/C install is even comparable or how - in a quantifiable way - the S/C installation is low risk.
So, by your logic, if I published 100pages of data logs, 4 hours of video, and made several DIYs on the topic of shoveling a entire driveway full of snow with a spoon, it would be the best way based on pure pile of data alone?
1) a supercharger is safer because it is set to run at one calculated boost setting right out of the box. The temptation of turning up the boost just to get more power is not possible unless you are knowledgeable enough to have the part made. This instantly makes it MUCH safer because it protects the user from him/herself (which is the main danger to any FI setup, an inexperienced user)
2) a supercharger installation does not require removal of the exhaust manifold. As we know rotaries can get very hot and the manifold and catalytic converter bolts can be difficult if not impossible to remove without cutting. For the "average user" who has no experience with repairs like this, a turbo install can meet a dead end here where a drive to a shop is necessary.
3) As of right now, the ECU of the RX8 can be flashed to accommodate supercharger installs, requiring no modifications at all to the ECU wiring.
01-26-2008, 07:54 PM
#38
The Professor
A supercharger is safer because it is harder to accidentally modify, or try and alter.
By the same logic as the fact that you wouldn't give a 16 year old kid a ferrari as their first car.
All of the blow ups on the forum are attributed to people trying to run xx+ psi on their stock greddy turbos. Pushing the system past its limits because its as easy as turning a bolt or even pressing a few buttons if you have a boost controller installed.
By the same logic as the fact that you wouldn't give a 16 year old kid a ferrari as their first car.
All of the blow ups on the forum are attributed to people trying to run xx+ psi on their stock greddy turbos. Pushing the system past its limits because its as easy as turning a bolt or even pressing a few buttons if you have a boost controller installed.
01-26-2008, 07:56 PM
#39
A supercharger is safer because it is harder to accidentally modify, or try and alter.
By the same logic as the fact that you wouldn't give a 16 year old kid a ferrari as their first car.
All of the blow ups on the forum are attributed to people trying to run xx+ psi on their stock greddy turbos. Pushing the system past its limits because its as easy as turning a bolt or even pressing a few buttons if you have a boost controller installed.
By the same logic as the fact that you wouldn't give a 16 year old kid a ferrari as their first car.
All of the blow ups on the forum are attributed to people trying to run xx+ psi on their stock greddy turbos. Pushing the system past its limits because its as easy as turning a bolt or even pressing a few buttons if you have a boost controller installed.
Now, with a SC, for $300, you can surely buy a different pulley and increase boost too.
All you're doing is demonstrating that a turbo system is more easily customizable. Not that it's any riskier. The lack of a higher PSI pulley from Pettit doesn't disprove this, it just means you have less options available.
01-26-2008, 08:19 PM
#40
1) a supercharger is safer because it is set to run at one calculated boost setting right out of the box. The temptation of turning up the boost just to get more power is not possible unless you are knowledgeable enough to have the part made. This instantly makes it MUCH safer because it protects the user from him/herself (which is the main danger to any FI setup, an inexperienced user)
A "boost setting" is pointless. Flow is king. If someone is running an S/C at 6 PSI and 260°F charge temps and someone else is running a TC at 11 PSI and 100°F charge temps, who is "safer"?
What about belt slip? What if that one user actually manages to get their belt to not slip at high RPM and they suddenly get all the boost that is designed into the kit to be lost to drive inefficiency?
2) a supercharger installation does not require removal of the exhaust manifold. As we know rotaries can get very hot and the manifold and catalytic converter bolts can be difficult if not impossible to remove without cutting. For the "average user" who has no experience with repairs like this, a turbo install can meet a dead end here where a drive to a shop is necessary.
So, cutting up the ABS bracket is easier and safer than unbolting the exhaust manifold? Removing the intake manifold and potentially dropping nuts, bolts and all kinds of goodies down the LIM is safe and easy?
At least you didn't drag out the old chestnut of under-hood heat.
01-27-2008, 12:23 AM
#41
The Professor
Now, with a SC, for $300, you can surely buy a different pulley and increase boost too.
All you're doing is demonstrating that a turbo system is more easily customizable. Not that it's any riskier. The lack of a higher PSI pulley from Pettit doesn't disprove this, it just means you have less options available.
All you're doing is demonstrating that a turbo system is more easily customizable. Not that it's any riskier. The lack of a higher PSI pulley from Pettit doesn't disprove this, it just means you have less options available.
If lack of options doesn't dispove this, then by-all-means... bolt up your rx8 racing transmission to your all-wheel drive rx8 fed by a 5 rotor engine.
01-27-2008, 01:08 AM
#43
The Professor
In order for your statements to be valid you need to disprove the null hypothesis. Basic science.
In this case it would be you not only proving your theories but also throughly putting down any other ideations.
http://www.answers.com/topic/file-drawer-problem
I do research for the government. My last job was working quality control at a pharmaceutical company. This is how I do.
Then why do the few Pettit runs out there show the boost swelling and then falling off if they are "set to run at one calculated boost setting"? So you are saying it is safer because it fails?
A "boost setting" is pointless. Flow is king. If someone is running an S/C at 6 PSI and 260°F charge temps and someone else is running a TC at 11 PSI and 100°F charge temps, who is "safer"?
A "boost setting" is pointless. Flow is king. If someone is running an S/C at 6 PSI and 260°F charge temps and someone else is running a TC at 11 PSI and 100°F charge temps, who is "safer"?
The safest one is obviously the supercharger, because it is making less power than the turbocharger. less power = safer, right?
Probably the same thing as the guy who locks his wastegate shut, just to see what happens, maybe it will improve spool times or something.
I have yet to ever encounter a Renesis with frozen manifold bolts. I guess its possible to have frozen mid-pipe bolts, but this is a really, really weak argument. "Oh. I can't get my mid-pipe out. Lets install a supercharger!" But I digress.
So, cutting up the ABS bracket is easier and safer than unbolting the exhaust manifold? Removing the intake manifold and potentially dropping nuts, bolts and all kinds of goodies down the LIM is safe and easy?
So, cutting up the ABS bracket is easier and safer than unbolting the exhaust manifold? Removing the intake manifold and potentially dropping nuts, bolts and all kinds of goodies down the LIM is safe and easy?
Removing the UIM is just as easy as not shorting out the ECU when plugging the piggyback in.
Lets settle this once and for all since your so set on arguing. Buy a pettit kit and a greddy kit, lets give them to 2 18 year olds with no car experience, equal ACT/SAT scores. Lets see who installs each the fastest.
01-27-2008, 02:15 AM
#47
