RX8 Programmer by Harrison R&D
02-21-2008, 02:00 PM
#51
In re-reading your comment, all H R&D needs to do is post on his web site-
Tuners, please place a NO READ in this non checksumed region and I will not download your files.
That will not stop everyone but it would be a responsible first step.
Tuners, please place a NO READ in this non checksumed region and I will not download your files.
That will not stop everyone but it would be a responsible first step.
02-21-2008, 02:00 PM
#52
Registered User
Thread Starter
Harison didn't make this device to rip anyone off. They made it for tuning purposes. If the user so chooses to use someone elses work on their car then thats up to them. This isn't the first reflasher to hit the market for cars so don't get your panties all in a ruffle about map sharing. It's happened with other cars and it was bound to happen with a popular sport car such as our beloved 8.
02-21-2008, 02:05 PM
#53
I can agree with that statement, however since RB already has flashed cars out there, they can't retroactively do it. Thus why he contacted them to see about a way to block transfer of their flash.
02-21-2008, 02:07 PM
#54
Registered User
Thread Starter
Everything you use on a daily basis got ripped off at one point or another from someone elses idea....from the keyboard you're using right now and the monitor you're staring at to the very language you speak. Does that mean that all the tools that went into making these items should be banned and prohibbited from being used by others? No. Why? Because if that happened our technological advancements would come to a screaching hault and our rotary engine that we have today would not exist.
Last edited by nmarz77; 02-21-2008 at 02:16 PM.
02-21-2008, 02:15 PM
#55
I believe, in talking to my Subaru friends, they can share maps with the Cobb AP. The bonding tech built into the unit is only there so only one car can use the hardware and it can't be shared between cars. They are selling hardware/software, not the actual maps. I think Cobb gives you a couple of maps just to get you in the ball park. As a starting point. Each car is unique and each owner has his own requirements. I think most people will go to a professional tuner. Most of us know just enough to be dangerous.
Last edited by alnielsen; 02-21-2008 at 02:23 PM.
02-21-2008, 02:21 PM
#56
If you are interested in getting calls, you say call me and I will protect you.
If you are interested in protecting, you honor NO READ statements.
Please PM as I think we are thrashing a dead horse.
02-21-2008, 02:43 PM
#57
No means yes
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Step 1: Reasearch security through obscurity
Step 2: Repent
Step 2: Repent
02-21-2008, 04:17 PM
#58
the enemy in the mirror
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Let's not forget all the various hardware versions and their respective different flashes, when people are concerned about straight up copying.
You'd have to know that your setup will be compatible with the flash you're taking from somewhere else, before you'd be foolish enough to do a plain old copy->overwrite.
More likely you'd take the map data or other changed values and merge them into your current flash (or something like that - assuming they were compatible, which is again another risk). If you have that much skill, you could probably bypass a simple 'no copy' bit.
How far down the rabbit hole is it worth going? Eventually you'll make it just difficult enough so someone else will come up with their own more flexible solution.
I for one would rather see good open tools. Modern automotive flashing is based on a standardized protocol, no? I don't see how you can create a new end-to-end security model without changing the way the car works. (Edit: & if that's really the heart of your complaint, then you should blame Mazda for electing to use this fundamentally insecure ECU setup)
Finally isn't there already some encryption support already in the design? (VIN based or something...) Or is that merely enforced on the tool side, and everything is truly open on the ECU if you have an 'unrestricted' tool? (Client-side-only security is a flawed idea)
Didn't Nissan make some attempt to secure the GT-R? That didn't last too long and the car is barely in anyone's hands...
2 cents
You'd have to know that your setup will be compatible with the flash you're taking from somewhere else, before you'd be foolish enough to do a plain old copy->overwrite.
More likely you'd take the map data or other changed values and merge them into your current flash (or something like that - assuming they were compatible, which is again another risk). If you have that much skill, you could probably bypass a simple 'no copy' bit.
How far down the rabbit hole is it worth going? Eventually you'll make it just difficult enough so someone else will come up with their own more flexible solution.
I for one would rather see good open tools. Modern automotive flashing is based on a standardized protocol, no? I don't see how you can create a new end-to-end security model without changing the way the car works. (Edit: & if that's really the heart of your complaint, then you should blame Mazda for electing to use this fundamentally insecure ECU setup)
Finally isn't there already some encryption support already in the design? (VIN based or something...) Or is that merely enforced on the tool side, and everything is truly open on the ECU if you have an 'unrestricted' tool? (Client-side-only security is a flawed idea)
Didn't Nissan make some attempt to secure the GT-R? That didn't last too long and the car is barely in anyone's hands...
2 cents
Last edited by secret8gent; 02-21-2008 at 04:25 PM.
02-21-2008, 05:03 PM
#59
Administrator
It seems as if each latest flash from Mazda has some sort of BS politics surrounding it. Stuff like having to make the proper claim in order to get the latest, needing to know someone who works at a dealership, knowing someone with the right hardware, etc. For this one, I have no idea.
you just get a subscription and get it from here
http://www.mazdatechinfo.com/home/DandPCcatalogTop.asp
02-21-2008, 05:18 PM
#60
Registered User
Before anyone makes the argument for COBB's maps are copyrighted, I would like pointed out there is an ASCII copyright statement in the factory PCM that COBB themselves are ignoring anyway.
(That is unless COBB wants to argue their maps are 100% from scratch.)
-Mr. Wigggles
(That is unless COBB wants to argue their maps are 100% from scratch.)
-Mr. Wigggles
02-21-2008, 05:20 PM
#61
Administrator
US law states that companies have to allow access to flash updates. it also allows them to charge a fee for the portal. remember they have to actually host the site and make the transfers possible. that does cost them some money. besides its their work product. they deserve to get something for it.
i do think its proper. what i dont think is proper is them not saying what the flash does- and the Oregon Attorney generals office agrees. i think with each flash there should be a pamphlet or handout that in laymans terms describes the changes.
if a mechanic takes a wrench to your car he has to tell you why- a flash is just a techy wrench and they should explain what they are doing.
http://www.drewtech.com/support/j2534/intro.html
i do think its proper. what i dont think is proper is them not saying what the flash does- and the Oregon Attorney generals office agrees. i think with each flash there should be a pamphlet or handout that in laymans terms describes the changes.
if a mechanic takes a wrench to your car he has to tell you why- a flash is just a techy wrench and they should explain what they are doing.
http://www.drewtech.com/support/j2534/intro.html
02-21-2008, 05:40 PM
#62
Before anyone makes the argument for COBB's maps are copyrighted, I would like pointed out there is an ASCII copyright statement in the factory PCM that COBB themselves are ignoring anyway.
(That is unless COBB wants to argue their maps are 100% from scratch.)
-Mr. Wigggles
(That is unless COBB wants to argue their maps are 100% from scratch.)
-Mr. Wigggles
They are smart guys and have been around for a very long time. I suspect they are doing everything the right way.
02-21-2008, 06:42 PM
#65
Fair enough.
Most of the tuners I have seen do fetch data from the PCM. You can then use the tuning tool company's software to edit that data and push it back on the PCM. Any data is encrypted as the tuning tool company does not want to distribute the map data that they spent a lot of time generating. In addition, the tools are usually locked to a VIN or VINs as well. All of these elements are barriers to moving one tuner's property from one car to another without paying him for his product. These barriers are the responsible way to make money without enabling theft.
Harrison came by the seed/key stuff and added it to his scan tool. He does not encrypt files pulled from PCMs and thus he does not take the precautions of a Cobb, Hymee or EFIDude to protect a tuner's property.
Is it the tuner's fault that H R&D does not have an editing package or any map knowledge? Why should the tuner be open to being ripped off out of no fault of his own? Why should the tuner, like Jim M, be forced to give H R&D a call to keep from being ripped off?
Some people think it is ok to move files from one car to another. Some do not. All I was trying to point out is the H R&D is doing something that no other tuning company that I know of (and I do not know them all) will permit to happen. I thought it was good to know.
We can talk more if you would like to PM as I am not sure anyone would be interested in the gory details.
Most of the tuners I have seen do fetch data from the PCM. You can then use the tuning tool company's software to edit that data and push it back on the PCM. Any data is encrypted as the tuning tool company does not want to distribute the map data that they spent a lot of time generating. In addition, the tools are usually locked to a VIN or VINs as well. All of these elements are barriers to moving one tuner's property from one car to another without paying him for his product. These barriers are the responsible way to make money without enabling theft.
Harrison came by the seed/key stuff and added it to his scan tool. He does not encrypt files pulled from PCMs and thus he does not take the precautions of a Cobb, Hymee or EFIDude to protect a tuner's property.
Is it the tuner's fault that H R&D does not have an editing package or any map knowledge? Why should the tuner be open to being ripped off out of no fault of his own? Why should the tuner, like Jim M, be forced to give H R&D a call to keep from being ripped off?
Some people think it is ok to move files from one car to another. Some do not. All I was trying to point out is the H R&D is doing something that no other tuning company that I know of (and I do not know them all) will permit to happen. I thought it was good to know.
We can talk more if you would like to PM as I am not sure anyone would be interested in the gory details.
Obviously you have zero clue about the thing Dan is trying to create.
02-21-2008, 07:06 PM
#66
I guess I am the one with zero clue, especially when it comes to the thing Dan is trying to create. Where are Alice and that darned rabbit?
As for tools to copy other people's work, opinions tend to differ between those doing the lifting and those creating the value. I am concerned for those creating the value which seems to put me in the minority. I can live with that.
I can not believe people are so vehemently defending this stuff. I hope those with such strong opinions actually do something useful one day only to loose it without being paid for it. The only problem with that "round world" theory is that the person must first do something useful before it can be taken.
As for Cobb being protected, good for them. I am glad to hear it.
02-21-2008, 10:24 PM
#68
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02-22-2008, 02:26 AM
#69
Registered User
Firmware can be copywrited. I've been told by those familiar with the legal side of tuning companies that the tables are not. If this is true, then Cobb is doing nothing wrong.
They are smart guys and have been around for a very long time. I suspect they are doing everything the right way.
They are smart guys and have been around for a very long time. I suspect they are doing everything the right way.
If you download somebody else's Cobb tune to your car, that should be treated no differently than what Cobb did when they downloaded Mazda's tune originally for their own development and now resale.
I am probably getting way ahead of things, but I see future complaints from Cobb coming due to products like the Harrison device. Cobb might complain: "People are stealing our maps!" Well that's kind of what Cobb did to Mazda to get the map in the first place.
Once again, this is all hypothetical.
-Mr. Wigggles
02-22-2008, 05:23 AM
#70
I wasn't attacking Cobb but preempting their potential legal argument once people start "stealing" their maps.
If you download somebody else's Cobb tune to your car, that should be treated no differently than what Cobb did when they downloaded Mazda's tune originally for their own development and now resale.
I am probably getting way ahead of things, but I see future complaints from Cobb coming due to products like the Harrison device. Cobb might complain: "People are stealing our maps!" Well that's kind of what Cobb did to Mazda to get the map in the first place.
Once again, this is all hypothetical.
-Mr. Wigggles
If you download somebody else's Cobb tune to your car, that should be treated no differently than what Cobb did when they downloaded Mazda's tune originally for their own development and now resale.
I am probably getting way ahead of things, but I see future complaints from Cobb coming due to products like the Harrison device. Cobb might complain: "People are stealing our maps!" Well that's kind of what Cobb did to Mazda to get the map in the first place.
Once again, this is all hypothetical.
-Mr. Wigggles
I started from Mazda's base so I am guilty as well.
02-22-2008, 07:05 AM
#71
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I am probably getting way ahead of things, but I see future complaints from Cobb coming due to products like the Harrison device. Cobb might complain: "People are stealing our maps!" Well that's kind of what Cobb did to Mazda to get the map in the first place.
Once again, this is all hypothetical.
-Mr. Wigggles
02-22-2008, 07:37 AM
#72
Its a moot point as after you marry the Accessport to you car's ECU, even the dealer can't reflash or read the flash... only access the OBD-II data - like most flash tuning devices or else the manufacturers would be going out of business pretty quickly with people stealing tunes and sharing flashing tools.
02-22-2008, 08:11 AM
#73
Finally Boosted!!!!!!!
Why would you take your car to the dealer without reflashing it back to the OEM flash that you store on the AP? I would never let the dealer touch my reflash.
02-22-2008, 08:44 AM
#74
02-24-2008, 07:26 PM
#75
The true issue to me is about being able to see and edit the flash you uploaded from your own car or flash from another source.
If you can't do this than you have just a re-flasher. It is also dangerous to your car to download somebody else's flash to your ECU. There is also the issue of different PCM and flashes for different countries. So downloading a JDM flash to your U.S. car can be a problem too. In addition, to unverified or flashes of unknown specifications.
You have to know if the flash will work on your car.
Part of the key is being able to see parameters of the flash while on a computer. You can see what the flash does and better yet would be being able to modify the flash.
If you can't do this than you have just a re-flasher. It is also dangerous to your car to download somebody else's flash to your ECU. There is also the issue of different PCM and flashes for different countries. So downloading a JDM flash to your U.S. car can be a problem too. In addition, to unverified or flashes of unknown specifications.
You have to know if the flash will work on your car.
Part of the key is being able to see parameters of the flash while on a computer. You can see what the flash does and better yet would be being able to modify the flash.