Product Feeler: Battery Relocation Kit
12-20-2009, 06:15 PM
#77
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No, sorry guys. I had the prototype built but i needed to find a good way to replicate it weather it was doing it myself or having a shop do it for me. In the process I ended up losing my job and had to take a new position half-way across the country (moved from Seattle WA to Norman OK recently). In Seattle I had a nice sized shop with a garage and all and now i'm temporarily in a one bedroom apartment which makes it a little difficult do work on any projects 
Plus i'm not familiar enough with the area to find a good shop to do it nor have i had the time lately.
Maybe come spring i'll find a shop in the area that can make them or by then i'll be living in a house with garage or shop so i can get some work done on them myself. Either way the project is on hold.
Plus i'm not familiar enough with the area to find a good shop to do it nor have i had the time lately.Maybe come spring i'll find a shop in the area that can make them or by then i'll be living in a house with garage or shop so i can get some work done on them myself. Either way the project is on hold.
12-20-2009, 08:19 PM
#79
First, if the battery is going in the engine bay then you need to get the metal jacket option with the Odyssey battery due to the high temperature. I'm not aware of this option for Braille so it's just a matter of time before it fries.
Second, stop wasting your time and effort making the actually battery mount. There are aluminum mounts made for both the Odyssey PC545and PC680 and the cost is likely less than you can hope to achieve with a small volume run. By doing this all you will need is an adaptor plate between the pre-fabbed battery mount and the chassis. Do not even attempt to use the smaller PC545 on the street - this is a smaller racing size only option. It's usual application is larger displacement motorcyles.
There was a 3rd point, but between eating dinner and typing this on a PDA it slipped my mind. I'll post it up if I remember what it is.
Second, stop wasting your time and effort making the actually battery mount. There are aluminum mounts made for both the Odyssey PC545and PC680 and the cost is likely less than you can hope to achieve with a small volume run. By doing this all you will need is an adaptor plate between the pre-fabbed battery mount and the chassis. Do not even attempt to use the smaller PC545 on the street - this is a smaller racing size only option. It's usual application is larger displacement motorcyles.
There was a 3rd point, but between eating dinner and typing this on a PDA it slipped my mind. I'll post it up if I remember what it is.
12-20-2009, 09:02 PM
#80
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Team, which Odyssey would you say is a equal to the Braille B2317R? I heard that for a somewhat daily driver car, that battery would do..but wasn't sure what the Odyssey equivalent would be. Also, got links to any of those mounting hardware and all so one could do this himself? Would be nice to see the difference between that and Jantzen's setup.
12-20-2009, 09:28 PM
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First, if the battery is going in the engine bay then you need to get the metal jacket option with the Odyssey battery due to the high temperature. I'm not aware of this option for Braille so it's just a matter of time before it fries.
Second, stop wasting your time and effort making the actually battery mount. There are aluminum mounts made for both the Odyssey PC545and PC680 and the cost is likely less than you can hope to achieve with a small volume run. By doing this all you will need is an adaptor plate between the pre-fabbed battery mount and the chassis. Do not even attempt to use the smaller PC545 on the street - this is a smaller racing size only option. It's usual application is larger displacement motorcyles.
There was a 3rd point, but between eating dinner and typing this on a PDA it slipped my mind. I'll post it up if I remember what it is.
Second, stop wasting your time and effort making the actually battery mount. There are aluminum mounts made for both the Odyssey PC545and PC680 and the cost is likely less than you can hope to achieve with a small volume run. By doing this all you will need is an adaptor plate between the pre-fabbed battery mount and the chassis. Do not even attempt to use the smaller PC545 on the street - this is a smaller racing size only option. It's usual application is larger displacement motorcyles.
There was a 3rd point, but between eating dinner and typing this on a PDA it slipped my mind. I'll post it up if I remember what it is.
To your second point, some of us like things to look good rather than just hold a battery. I made this wanting a single flowing piece of aluminum to clean up the look of gaping hole in the engine bay. We're not all hardcore autocrossers like you Team. Sometimes a little form over function is what we're looking for.
12-20-2009, 09:54 PM
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The metal jacket is definitely not a bad idea but after a 25 min session in 105 degree temps the battery is really not that hot to the touch. What do they consider high temps?
To your second point, some of us like things to look good rather than just hold a battery. I made this wanting a single flowing piece of aluminum to clean up the look of gaping hole in the engine bay. We're not all hardcore autocrossers like you Team. Sometimes a little form over function is what we're looking for.
To your second point, some of us like things to look good rather than just hold a battery. I made this wanting a single flowing piece of aluminum to clean up the look of gaping hole in the engine bay. We're not all hardcore autocrossers like you Team. Sometimes a little form over function is what we're looking for.
12-21-2009, 12:18 AM
#83
Oh yeah, point 3 is that these are sealed "nonspillable" batteries. The legitimately and legally ship any way you want; UPS, FedEx, USPS, etc., even Air Express. There are some requirements for packaging and marking the exterior shipping container, but nothing that shouldn't be done anyway. The battery comes with a brochure that explains all this.
The PC545 and PC680 Odyssey batteries are only rated for 113 degF maximum operating temp, then the metal jacket is required. Your radiator is putting out well in excess of 180 degF, plus the usual heat that comes off a rotary engine. Anybody who owns an RX-8 knows that everything in the engine bay becomes very hot from this heat. I'm pretty sure this is what caused my Braille to go off and eventually die in under a year. When I switched to the Odyssey PC680 it was relocated to the trunk, but at the time I wasn't aware of this requirement. Failing to use the metal jacket in a high temp application will void the warranty.
Also, never use a trickle charge on the Odyssey if the battery is below 12.65 volts. You have to use a fast charger otherwise this will also kill the battery. If you use a trickle charger it must put out at least 3 amps and have it must have an output between 13.5 - 13.8 volts. For the longest life you want to maintain the battery voltage above 12.8 volts. If in doubt, buy the Odyssey charger. Not following this will also void the warranty.
Got my best price shipped for everything here, mainly because they sell the basic mount for less than anyone else:
http://www.sepbatteries.com/
mounts
http://www.sepbatteries.com/Odyssey-...cessories.aspx
.
The PC545 and PC680 Odyssey batteries are only rated for 113 degF maximum operating temp, then the metal jacket is required. Your radiator is putting out well in excess of 180 degF, plus the usual heat that comes off a rotary engine. Anybody who owns an RX-8 knows that everything in the engine bay becomes very hot from this heat. I'm pretty sure this is what caused my Braille to go off and eventually die in under a year. When I switched to the Odyssey PC680 it was relocated to the trunk, but at the time I wasn't aware of this requirement. Failing to use the metal jacket in a high temp application will void the warranty.
Also, never use a trickle charge on the Odyssey if the battery is below 12.65 volts. You have to use a fast charger otherwise this will also kill the battery. If you use a trickle charger it must put out at least 3 amps and have it must have an output between 13.5 - 13.8 volts. For the longest life you want to maintain the battery voltage above 12.8 volts. If in doubt, buy the Odyssey charger. Not following this will also void the warranty.
Got my best price shipped for everything here, mainly because they sell the basic mount for less than anyone else:
http://www.sepbatteries.com/
mounts
http://www.sepbatteries.com/Odyssey-...cessories.aspx
.
Last edited by TeamRX8; 12-21-2009 at 12:37 AM.
12-21-2009, 12:30 AM
#84
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They're super cheap here too:
http://www.portablepower.com
$98 -- i got free shipping when i bought mine but i'm not sure if they still do that.
http://www.portablepower.com
$98 -- i got free shipping when i bought mine but i'm not sure if they still do that.
12-21-2009, 01:06 AM
#85
yes, but you need to add everything to see what the total is because everything else is higher, including the metal jacket. The SAE post price is each, so x 2, or for the 680 you can order the PC680MJT which also gives you the metal jacket and SAE terminals for a lower overall price.
.
.
Last edited by TeamRX8; 12-21-2009 at 01:12 AM.
12-21-2009, 05:34 PM
#88
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Here is my twenty dollars worth:
Please include a screwdriver and a phone book with your kit. This way you can poke a hole in the radiator so it will heat up and toast your motor faster and get to the ultimate desitination that blocking the radiator will get you---motor failure. The phone book is to look up the numbers of a tow truck, a salvage dealer or your local Mazda shop. I'm being harsh fellas because this scares the crap out of me.
NOBODY is talking about the increased water temps this thing is going to see. These engines don't like high water temps sports fans. Any idea where the best engine builders like to see operating water temps? Huh? What? 190 F and less is preferred. 210 is not good. 220 is risky. 230+ and you might as well start ebaying for a new engine.
Here's the deal: The ability of the fans to extract/pull air through your stock or aftermarket radiator is about nil WHEN THE MOTOR IS HOT and the car is moving slowly or stopped. This means your ability to recover is also about nil. $100 says when you test this setup and perform dyno pulls you will see 220F lickity split. The oil and water cooling system work together so higher water temps will also increase (and retain) oil temps. So now you have both water and oil at high temps with limited ability to recover. Nowhere is it listed in this thread (that I could see) where there is any data supporting how temps were influenced. One person offered temps when you drive the car at a zillion miles an hour but that is not where the problem is going to rear its VERY ugly head. Go ahead and not drive your car under 15 mph and you'll be just fine. I haven't figured out how to do that yet.
It is my responsibility to point out those things that are detrimental to car owners who are new to modifications. This would be one of them.
Now for you naysayers that want to talk about intake temps. Have you tested the temps of your intake when measured on the exterior of your intake and come to any repeatable findings? I have. Back to back. Several times. Here is what you will find. With an AEM/Mazdaspeed intake like the one shown (we use the same intake actually as we've found it to produce the most torque for us: 150 ft. lbs). You will find on the dyno that the actual air temp that the ECU will read (the RX-8 measures intake air temp as part of it's stock system (IAT)), doesn't vary much when exposed to heat blown from the radiator. In otherwords, when you run the car up and hot and then measure the underside (the hot side) of the intake, you will find that this temp is NOT what your car is actually reading. What the car will read is something much more closer to the actual temp at the air filter. Yes it increase a bit but nothing like you'll read with an infrared on the bottom side of the intake. We use the gold foil popular in racing circles and cover our intake. This helps quit a bit. I've found about 2 or maybe 3 hp delta between very hot air temps (measured just past the throtle body) and something more ambient. Therefore, you might earn a couple but at the expense of super hot water temps.
What about if you remove the plastic black plastic belly pan to allow the air on the back side of the radiator to escape? Strike two. It actually gets worse as the air that you want forced THROUGH the radiator diverts around it never to see the radiator and never (or very, very little) to flow through the rad and reduce water temps.
You want to learn something about your cars gang? Take a close look at how the air flows through the radiator and take a guess where it goes AFTER it passes through the radiator. Go ahead, take a look. You'll be surprised.
If you want a fancy-smancy sexy interior to impress your buddies in the supermarket parking lot then by all means have at it.
If you want to make your car go faster on the track then stick your battery in the RR of the trunk like a smart ole' chap on this forum already mentioned. Better yet, use the stock battery as these cars really need more weight in the RR.
I sit here before you guys typing on my laptop and expose myself to the arrows and bullets one might introduce WITH DATA. Don't give me that crap about (my little temp arrow is now on the other side of the little gauge thingee). Go find out the answers. Do you think race engineers stick their finger up in the air to measure outside air temp? Of course not. This is why your RX8 already measures water and air temp within it's stock system.
Please, somebody who can validate this step up with findings.
Respectfully and to help expose readers of this thread and forum with information so they can make informed decisions.
Eric Meyer
Please include a screwdriver and a phone book with your kit. This way you can poke a hole in the radiator so it will heat up and toast your motor faster and get to the ultimate desitination that blocking the radiator will get you---motor failure. The phone book is to look up the numbers of a tow truck, a salvage dealer or your local Mazda shop. I'm being harsh fellas because this scares the crap out of me.
NOBODY is talking about the increased water temps this thing is going to see. These engines don't like high water temps sports fans. Any idea where the best engine builders like to see operating water temps? Huh? What? 190 F and less is preferred. 210 is not good. 220 is risky. 230+ and you might as well start ebaying for a new engine.
Here's the deal: The ability of the fans to extract/pull air through your stock or aftermarket radiator is about nil WHEN THE MOTOR IS HOT and the car is moving slowly or stopped. This means your ability to recover is also about nil. $100 says when you test this setup and perform dyno pulls you will see 220F lickity split. The oil and water cooling system work together so higher water temps will also increase (and retain) oil temps. So now you have both water and oil at high temps with limited ability to recover. Nowhere is it listed in this thread (that I could see) where there is any data supporting how temps were influenced. One person offered temps when you drive the car at a zillion miles an hour but that is not where the problem is going to rear its VERY ugly head. Go ahead and not drive your car under 15 mph and you'll be just fine. I haven't figured out how to do that yet.
It is my responsibility to point out those things that are detrimental to car owners who are new to modifications. This would be one of them.
Now for you naysayers that want to talk about intake temps. Have you tested the temps of your intake when measured on the exterior of your intake and come to any repeatable findings? I have. Back to back. Several times. Here is what you will find. With an AEM/Mazdaspeed intake like the one shown (we use the same intake actually as we've found it to produce the most torque for us: 150 ft. lbs). You will find on the dyno that the actual air temp that the ECU will read (the RX-8 measures intake air temp as part of it's stock system (IAT)), doesn't vary much when exposed to heat blown from the radiator. In otherwords, when you run the car up and hot and then measure the underside (the hot side) of the intake, you will find that this temp is NOT what your car is actually reading. What the car will read is something much more closer to the actual temp at the air filter. Yes it increase a bit but nothing like you'll read with an infrared on the bottom side of the intake. We use the gold foil popular in racing circles and cover our intake. This helps quit a bit. I've found about 2 or maybe 3 hp delta between very hot air temps (measured just past the throtle body) and something more ambient. Therefore, you might earn a couple but at the expense of super hot water temps.
What about if you remove the plastic black plastic belly pan to allow the air on the back side of the radiator to escape? Strike two. It actually gets worse as the air that you want forced THROUGH the radiator diverts around it never to see the radiator and never (or very, very little) to flow through the rad and reduce water temps.
You want to learn something about your cars gang? Take a close look at how the air flows through the radiator and take a guess where it goes AFTER it passes through the radiator. Go ahead, take a look. You'll be surprised.
If you want a fancy-smancy sexy interior to impress your buddies in the supermarket parking lot then by all means have at it.
If you want to make your car go faster on the track then stick your battery in the RR of the trunk like a smart ole' chap on this forum already mentioned. Better yet, use the stock battery as these cars really need more weight in the RR.
I sit here before you guys typing on my laptop and expose myself to the arrows and bullets one might introduce WITH DATA. Don't give me that crap about (my little temp arrow is now on the other side of the little gauge thingee). Go find out the answers. Do you think race engineers stick their finger up in the air to measure outside air temp? Of course not. This is why your RX8 already measures water and air temp within it's stock system.
Please, somebody who can validate this step up with findings.
Respectfully and to help expose readers of this thread and forum with information so they can make informed decisions.
Eric Meyer
Last edited by EricMeyer; 12-21-2009 at 05:39 PM.
12-21-2009, 05:43 PM
#89
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By the way, relocating your stock battery box and/or the entire battery will LOWER your water temps as there is less airflow blockage behind the rad (but you have to measure it before and after). Even better add a vented hood. Your thermostat will help to insure your water temps will not get too low. We run a water and an oil thermo to insure the engine operates at it's optimum (and safe) temperature range.
Paul----would you mind quickly asking Rick about the water temps he likes to see? This is one of the sources I have talked to about this exact same water temp issue. Same for Haskell at SpeedSource. Same for Daryl Drummond.
Paul----would you mind quickly asking Rick about the water temps he likes to see? This is one of the sources I have talked to about this exact same water temp issue. Same for Haskell at SpeedSource. Same for Daryl Drummond.
12-21-2009, 05:59 PM
#90
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I'm not really sure why you're getting your panties in a twist. There are stock panels (one that holds the stock battery one that holds the stock airbox) that cover the exact same area as this thing.
So what's your point again?
So what's your point again?
12-21-2009, 06:30 PM
#91
I think the points were:
A) You can achieve minimal intake temp deltas (ambient to TB) without the panel.
B) Flow through the engine bay is poor in an Rx8.
C) Removing the battery from the engine bay is a cooling improvement.
D) There hasn't been any cooling system capacity tests.
E) Excessive heat kills engines.
So, you've mostly removed the battery blockage (an improvement) and then replaced it with a more thorough blockage than stock. So, if the stock cooling system is an issue stock (and in some applications it is) and you've constructed a part which has a net benefit of minimal intake improvement and net cooling system effectiveness reduction then it's a bad idea.
When you read and digest the entirety of Eric's post, it makes a lot of sense on its own foregoing his background/credentials. I wouldn't just discount it. You might run some numbers and stock you're fine. Others who might want to mimic the design should take its full effect into consideration. Maybe in some applications it is a very bad idea.
A) You can achieve minimal intake temp deltas (ambient to TB) without the panel.
B) Flow through the engine bay is poor in an Rx8.
C) Removing the battery from the engine bay is a cooling improvement.
D) There hasn't been any cooling system capacity tests.
E) Excessive heat kills engines.
So, you've mostly removed the battery blockage (an improvement) and then replaced it with a more thorough blockage than stock. So, if the stock cooling system is an issue stock (and in some applications it is) and you've constructed a part which has a net benefit of minimal intake improvement and net cooling system effectiveness reduction then it's a bad idea.
When you read and digest the entirety of Eric's post, it makes a lot of sense on its own foregoing his background/credentials. I wouldn't just discount it. You might run some numbers and stock you're fine. Others who might want to mimic the design should take its full effect into consideration. Maybe in some applications it is a very bad idea.
12-21-2009, 07:00 PM
#92
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It just seemed a little excessive for something that changes very little compared to stock. Saying this little piece of aluminum that replaces a stock part is going to end up frying my engine is quite the accusation.
12-21-2009, 08:09 PM
#93
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Jantz,
The best thing you can do is test your product in various forms for the customers who will use it in thier own unique applications to see what it does.
The worse thing that can happen is you make a few bucks on these things, somebody blows a motor and you get a nice letter from a lawyer.
Prospective customers----the best thing you can do is ask questions and help define value to make this product as good as it can be. I have found that a zillion of the people on this crazy forum are THE biggest tire kickers/"I want one of those"/"can we group buy this"/so and so will do it for $3 cheaper. I said it. Some of you are wonderful researchers and others like to ask "it's my first track day how much camber should I run duh de duh de duh." Read people, read. Lots of good info on this forum and their out a ton of good resources to tap into. Read. And then read some more. OK. Off soapbox. Back to reality. Most people want tire rack cool wheels and a subwoofer---good for you. Bad for you to beleive everything on this forum at face value.
The best thing that you can do Jantz is you make a few bucks and take your sweetheart to a nice dinner. And I'm behind product innovation 110%. Capitalism at it's finest.
Like I offered before, I have covered, uncovered, big fan, little fan, no fan, belly pan, big rad, bigger rad, super huge rad, stock water pump, remedy water pump, stock oil coolers, big oil coolers, giant oil coolers, oil thermo with and without, blah, blah, blah. My gut talks to me more strongly on this thread then any other thread on this forum. Most likely because we battled a heat issue and blown motors before we figured out what the heck was going on----this started my sales and marketing *** down the mechanical engineer / data collection road. I'm just a plain ole' dude that realizes the power of confirming your hunches. And my solid hunch says heat wave city.
There is another thing we saw and I'm not qualified to comment on this---perhaps someone smarter than I on the subject. I believe we saw in the very early stages of a stock ecu with a header, no A/F sensor recording and Ron Davis radiator a leaning of the motor with high water/oil (both?) temps. This led to a few expolosions and was related to the various issues (no sensors recording anything with our aim dash other than oil p, oil t, water t and volts. These really don't tell you much other than the engine is hot or not or the thing blew up. High rpms, temps and inconsistant fuel delivery = boom, boom get out of yellow pages. These issues went away when we adressed each of these issues----heat being the largest one. Some of you know we blew up and I purchased 14 motors that year. 14 (not a typo). So I was rather motivated to find out what the hell was going on inside of these things that make a header exhaust note that people hate.
The best thing you can do is test your product in various forms for the customers who will use it in thier own unique applications to see what it does.
The worse thing that can happen is you make a few bucks on these things, somebody blows a motor and you get a nice letter from a lawyer.
Prospective customers----the best thing you can do is ask questions and help define value to make this product as good as it can be. I have found that a zillion of the people on this crazy forum are THE biggest tire kickers/"I want one of those"/"can we group buy this"/so and so will do it for $3 cheaper. I said it. Some of you are wonderful researchers and others like to ask "it's my first track day how much camber should I run duh de duh de duh." Read people, read. Lots of good info on this forum and their out a ton of good resources to tap into. Read. And then read some more. OK. Off soapbox. Back to reality. Most people want tire rack cool wheels and a subwoofer---good for you. Bad for you to beleive everything on this forum at face value.
The best thing that you can do Jantz is you make a few bucks and take your sweetheart to a nice dinner. And I'm behind product innovation 110%. Capitalism at it's finest.
Like I offered before, I have covered, uncovered, big fan, little fan, no fan, belly pan, big rad, bigger rad, super huge rad, stock water pump, remedy water pump, stock oil coolers, big oil coolers, giant oil coolers, oil thermo with and without, blah, blah, blah. My gut talks to me more strongly on this thread then any other thread on this forum. Most likely because we battled a heat issue and blown motors before we figured out what the heck was going on----this started my sales and marketing *** down the mechanical engineer / data collection road. I'm just a plain ole' dude that realizes the power of confirming your hunches. And my solid hunch says heat wave city.
There is another thing we saw and I'm not qualified to comment on this---perhaps someone smarter than I on the subject. I believe we saw in the very early stages of a stock ecu with a header, no A/F sensor recording and Ron Davis radiator a leaning of the motor with high water/oil (both?) temps. This led to a few expolosions and was related to the various issues (no sensors recording anything with our aim dash other than oil p, oil t, water t and volts. These really don't tell you much other than the engine is hot or not or the thing blew up. High rpms, temps and inconsistant fuel delivery = boom, boom get out of yellow pages. These issues went away when we adressed each of these issues----heat being the largest one. Some of you know we blew up and I purchased 14 motors that year. 14 (not a typo). So I was rather motivated to find out what the hell was going on inside of these things that make a header exhaust note that people hate.
12-21-2009, 08:28 PM
#94
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A few things you guys might like:
Crazy airbox testing on the dyno. Note the 3 fans. Although this might look like a hillbilly beer fest, we collected lots of good data. You will see white racers tap on the various intakes which represent a dyno pull number based on the average of 3 pulls done back to back at about same engine temps. We did this a few times with other crazy intake designs however I didn't take any pics.
Sorry for the dirty car, I think we were pushing hard to get to Daytona or something.
Items logged were:
-Lambda .92 (if you don't know what this----google it!)
-Fuel P (usually about 90)
-Water T (start pulls about 185)
-Oil T (car makes more power when oil gets hotter---about 2 hp Oil at 210 F and water below 200, IAT as low as you can. We like to keep both water and oil below 200 on the dyno.
-Oil P: 8 trillion Kelvin (we have never had an oil pressure related issue). I hardly look at it anymore.
-ECU correction factor
-TPS (by the way, sometimes the stock throttle assembly will go kaput and you might chase your tails trying to figure it out). If there is a thread on this forum about that and you are playing with your car---read it.
-RPM blah, blah
-EGT (2)
http://gallery.me.com/meyermotorsports#100760
Crazy airbox testing on the dyno. Note the 3 fans. Although this might look like a hillbilly beer fest, we collected lots of good data. You will see white racers tap on the various intakes which represent a dyno pull number based on the average of 3 pulls done back to back at about same engine temps. We did this a few times with other crazy intake designs however I didn't take any pics.
Sorry for the dirty car, I think we were pushing hard to get to Daytona or something.
Items logged were:
-Lambda .92 (if you don't know what this----google it!)
-Fuel P (usually about 90)
-Water T (start pulls about 185)
-Oil T (car makes more power when oil gets hotter---about 2 hp Oil at 210 F and water below 200, IAT as low as you can. We like to keep both water and oil below 200 on the dyno.
-Oil P: 8 trillion Kelvin (we have never had an oil pressure related issue). I hardly look at it anymore.
-ECU correction factor
-TPS (by the way, sometimes the stock throttle assembly will go kaput and you might chase your tails trying to figure it out). If there is a thread on this forum about that and you are playing with your car---read it.
-RPM blah, blah
-EGT (2)
http://gallery.me.com/meyermotorsports#100760
Last edited by EricMeyer; 12-21-2009 at 08:31 PM.
12-21-2009, 08:39 PM
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12-21-2009, 10:00 PM
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So far i've said i built a battery relocation kit that replaces the stock battery tray and intake tray and moves the battery further back and lower than stock. It's made out of aluminum... it's painted black...
If you really wanted to give some constructive criticism you would respond with something like... you shouldn't make it out of aluminum because of blah blah blah... or you should have the battery mounted there because of blah blah blah...
You don't really address my product in any of your posts here which doesn't help anyone. You keep talking about heat and how it destroys the engine but you don't say how this product contributes to higher engine or intake temps.
This was one of your first comments ....
"NOBODY is talking about the increased water temps this thing is going to see. "
Until you answer the question "Why will this product increase water temps?" please do not post here.
Furthermore, if you read post #77 you would realize that development on on this product ceased for a number of reasons (and quite a while ago). I had planned on testing intake and water temps once i had a finalized prototype and the means to measure temps etc (w/ a Cobb AP or something of the like -- which i still do not have)
12-22-2009, 09:22 AM
#98
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I'm all for that but you're not really telling me anything about what is wrong with the product...
So far i've said i built a battery relocation kit that replaces the stock battery tray and intake tray and moves the battery further back and lower than stock. It's made out of aluminum... it's painted black...
If you really wanted to give some constructive criticism you would respond with something like... you shouldn't make it out of aluminum because of blah blah blah... or you should have the battery mounted there because of blah blah blah...
You don't really address my product in any of your posts here which doesn't help anyone. You keep talking about heat and how it destroys the engine but you don't say how this product contributes to higher engine or intake temps.
This was one of your first comments ....
"NOBODY is talking about the increased water temps this thing is going to see. "
Until you answer the question "Why will this product increase water temps?" please do not post here.
Furthermore, if you read post #77 you would realize that development on on this product ceased for a number of reasons (and quite a while ago). I had planned on testing intake and water temps once i had a finalized prototype and the means to measure temps etc (w/ a Cobb AP or something of the like -- which i still do not have)
So far i've said i built a battery relocation kit that replaces the stock battery tray and intake tray and moves the battery further back and lower than stock. It's made out of aluminum... it's painted black...
If you really wanted to give some constructive criticism you would respond with something like... you shouldn't make it out of aluminum because of blah blah blah... or you should have the battery mounted there because of blah blah blah...
You don't really address my product in any of your posts here which doesn't help anyone. You keep talking about heat and how it destroys the engine but you don't say how this product contributes to higher engine or intake temps.
This was one of your first comments ....
"NOBODY is talking about the increased water temps this thing is going to see. "
Until you answer the question "Why will this product increase water temps?" please do not post here.
Furthermore, if you read post #77 you would realize that development on on this product ceased for a number of reasons (and quite a while ago). I had planned on testing intake and water temps once i had a finalized prototype and the means to measure temps etc (w/ a Cobb AP or something of the like -- which i still do not have)
The black aluminum piece on your product is a huge inhibitor to air flow through the radiator. Especially at the highest point of the bent aluminum shroud as it appears to be near flush with the radiator. This essentially makes the top 25% +/- non-functional. A closer look reveals what appears to be about 2/3 lateral restriction and possibly 1/3 to 1/4 height restriction. Hard to say for certain.
The bottom or lower portion of the height of your metal piece funnels the air downward. This means that balance of the air (100% - 25 or 30% or whatever is blocked from the upper part of the radiator) is now cramming itself. This INCREASES air pressure or makes more high pressure. Think of the top part of the black aluminum as a big wall that doesn't allow any or anymore air to enter and flow through the radiator. Basically it's contributing to higher pressure. To put this another way---you have made the radiator smaller. Most radiators have unrestricted area behind them. This helps air flow through the radiator and reduces heat. Think of the hood of a Ford GT as a more extreme example. Packaging of this radiator allows a design like this because the engine is in the rear and there is lots of space under the hood to allow for this design.
Since you are from Norman and moved to Seattle I would guess (probably wrong) that you worked at Tinker and now you work for Boeing (I'm probably wrong). Picture any of the engines in bldg. 3001. Think of air restriction behind the inlet fan or the turbine----this limits the amount of air the engine can process---same for automotive radiators. This leads to less cooling which leads to more heat retention in the engine resulting in higher temps which are nood good for rotaries in particular. Ask any rotary engine builder and they will confirm this.
Summary----dump the black cosmetic plate so the air can perform it's role to cool the engine.
One thing that would be trick (and you'd have to test and measure it to confirm functionality) is to place your smaller battery in front of the motor and make a diverting shroud which flows air (hopefully) to the sides of the motor to help it escape through the wheel wells. The front of our motor is also a "wall" of sorts that creates high pressure. Air flowing through the radiator hits the front of the engine and stalls/swirls/stops/restricts nice and smooth air flow to let the air escape. This is why you see some of the trick smaller radiators that flow lots of air and then let it freely escape on open wheel cars like IndyCar and F1. Smaller radiator that flow alot equate to better packaging, aero and give a designer more flexibility when coming up with a design.
Here is an example: http://www.yearone.com/enthusiast/ar...e/garage18.jpg
You will notice that there is nothing behind the radiator restricting air flow (which is the point I'm trying to make).
Your current battery tray the way its positioned also makes an airflow "wall". If you could go back to turning it on it's side it would have less exposed surface area and help increase more air flow than your current design. Is this making sense yet?
One of the things your design has working against it is the angle of the stock RX8 radiator. The top is tilted forward obviously. This means that airflow wants to go UP. This is where your design greatly resticts air movement. Your asking the air to bend. This furthur reduces air flow. Air doesn't like to bend which is why piston engine builders look at reducing the short turn radius of intake and exhaust ports (google for more info). This is also one of the reasons why most performance exhaust headers don't look like a pretzel on acid.
Can you bag the black shroud and turn the battery on it's side exposing less surface area? This would actually HELP air flow as the big stock battery and box are also current restrictions to better cooling. Better yet, relocate the battery to the trunk (which is probably getting away from your metal fabrication resources and heads down an "electrical solution" road.
I sincerely this has helped you better understand something I took for granted that everyone knows. My bad. I'm trying to help you avoid issues with marketing your current product and have people overheat their motors. The funny thing is all the race fabrication community knows this stuff and its a no-brainer. They wouldn't think twice about it. A little google-action reveals finding the logic behind these concepts is pretty hard to find which may be why people don't know this. The other part of the equation is probably based on your initial goals to produce something attractive in the engine compartment with no (or very little) considerationi to air flow. Either way I hope this has been an enlightening post.
Please feel free to contact me if you'd like to discuss furthur and/or explore alternate designs that provide consumer value.
Eric Meyer
Email: meyermotorsports@mac.com
www.meyer-motorsports.com
Side note: A few minutes ago I recvd an email from an RX8 owner who wanted to better understand the previous posts. He is a mechanical engineer. His objective is/was to reduce engine temps. After sharing basically the same stuff I'm shared on this post he got it. This tells me these concepts may be hard to grasp.
Last edited by EricMeyer; 12-22-2009 at 09:30 AM.
12-22-2009, 10:37 AM
#99
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I understand what you're saying but I think you're still missing the point. This replicates stock parts (battery tray and intake tray) with very minimal changes. Please explain how this is at all worse for engine temps than the stock components.
As far as i'm concerned you might as well be emailing Mazda right now telling them about their flawed design of battery trays and intake trays and that your engine is going to blow because of them and you're going to sue them.
The black aluminum piece is not strictly a cosmetic piece. It was a means to securely mount the battery where i wanted to while keeping the design as close to OEM as possible. I figured keeping the design as close to OEM as possible would keep people like you from ripping the design to shreds.
Are you going to post a thread titled "Your engine is going to blow: remove your stock battery and intake ASAP!"? See what i'm getting at yet? Yes, there may be better ways of extracting heat from the engine bay but you haven't said anything about this being better or worse than stock because last time i checked most of us drive stock or close to stock cars (at least under the hood).
Please compare this product to a stock car not one of your race cars and continue...
As far as i'm concerned you might as well be emailing Mazda right now telling them about their flawed design of battery trays and intake trays and that your engine is going to blow because of them and you're going to sue them.
The black aluminum piece is not strictly a cosmetic piece. It was a means to securely mount the battery where i wanted to while keeping the design as close to OEM as possible. I figured keeping the design as close to OEM as possible would keep people like you from ripping the design to shreds.
Are you going to post a thread titled "Your engine is going to blow: remove your stock battery and intake ASAP!"? See what i'm getting at yet? Yes, there may be better ways of extracting heat from the engine bay but you haven't said anything about this being better or worse than stock because last time i checked most of us drive stock or close to stock cars (at least under the hood).
Please compare this product to a stock car not one of your race cars and continue...
12-22-2009, 10:50 AM
#100
The concepts are easy, the way they're being presented and communicated make me wonder if you've been hitting the spiked eggnog early. If excessive verbage was a grading factor you'd probably get an A+ rather than a Fail- 
otherwise you seem to have contradicted yourself multiple times which only leaves me one final option response:
To answer your own PM, I provided my sage input earlier in the thread. After that it was clear some people were intent on hanging themselves so I obliged this desire by showing them where the rope and tree are located
otherwise you seem to have contradicted yourself multiple times which only leaves me one final option response:To answer your own PM, I provided my sage input earlier in the thread. After that it was clear some people were intent on hanging themselves so I obliged this desire by showing them where the rope and tree are located