Possible answers to the common question?
08-31-2004, 11:40 PM
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Possible answers to the common question?
Ok, I know everyone's put some thought into this, and I know that there are a lot of factors that play a role in the potential output, but, I wanted to just check and see what everyone was thinking.
what do ya'll project 0-60 times will be with a super or turbocharger, 1/4mile times? what kind of torque increase can we expect? What was the output of previous rotary engines before and after TC/SC ?
I love my 8, although it needs just a bit more torque, so, I plan to throw a super or turbocharger into it as soon as they become available.
What do yall think the chances are that Mazdaspeed will release a TC/SC kit? I know they wanted to keep the costs down, but, they've gotta see that there is a large market for this, ...I hope there perusing it.
what do ya'll project 0-60 times will be with a super or turbocharger, 1/4mile times? what kind of torque increase can we expect? What was the output of previous rotary engines before and after TC/SC ?
I love my 8, although it needs just a bit more torque, so, I plan to throw a super or turbocharger into it as soon as they become available.
What do yall think the chances are that Mazdaspeed will release a TC/SC kit? I know they wanted to keep the costs down, but, they've gotta see that there is a large market for this, ...I hope there perusing it.
09-01-2004, 02:24 AM
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There are alot of factors as you have said. One day we'll be seeing 0-60 times in the 3's and quarter mile times in the 10's. That's a ways off though. Realistically we'll see high 12's to low 13's in the quarter for low to mild boost systems. 0-60 will probably end up in the low to mid 4's. There is so much that can make this accurate or inaccurate.
09-01-2004, 04:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Jarred
What do yall think the chances are that Mazdaspeed will release a TC/SC kit? I know they wanted to keep the costs down, but, they've gotta see that there is a large market for this, ...I hope there perusing it.
cheers
michael
09-01-2004, 05:55 AM
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There is no RX-7 market in the US, at least not as far as Mazda is concerned. There hasn't been an RX-7 market in the US since '95 (if I remember correctly), which is why they quit selling them here. AFAIK, there hasn't been a RX-7 market elsewhere since '99 (which was the last year they made RX-7s, if my information sources are correct).
Rumors are abound that FI will happen sometime at or before 2008. Rumors also have it that Mazda will be showing it off at the Tokyo Auto Salon in two years (assuming that I remembered the right event and it hasn't already happened for this year). Rumors also claim that there may be a new RX-7, at which point, I'll believe Lock & Loads claims.
Rumors are abound that FI will happen sometime at or before 2008. Rumors also have it that Mazda will be showing it off at the Tokyo Auto Salon in two years (assuming that I remembered the right event and it hasn't already happened for this year). Rumors also claim that there may be a new RX-7, at which point, I'll believe Lock & Loads claims.
09-01-2004, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Lock & Load
Fairly slim in my opinion as they would eat into the potential RX7market would you buy a RX7 if your mazdaspeed RX8 could produce 250kw .????
cheers
michael
cheers
michael
I don't forsee an RX-7 in the future. I believe the 3rd gen. may be the last unicorn. Is it possible for Mazda to release two sports cars, with rotary engines?
09-01-2004, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by robertdot
AFAIK, there hasn't been a RX-7 market elsewhere since '99 (which was the last year they made RX-7s, if my information sources are correct).
Mazda Motor Corporation today announces the launch of three models in the RX-7 "Spirit R," a limited-production series of the RX-7 rotary engine sports car. As the final limited-production series of the RX-7, the Sprit R series goes on sale on April 22 at Mazda Anfini and selected Mazda dealerships throughout Japan.
The third-generation RX-7, first launched in 1991, has a particularly distinctive exterior design. Its lightweight, compact and high-output rotary engine enables the driver to feel superb driving pleasure. Epitomizing Mazda's spirit of sports car, RX-7 has won popularity among the customers since its 1978 launch. Mazda envisions the production of the current RX-7 model (FD-3S) to come to an end in August 2002.
The Spirit R series is available in three models: the Type A, a two-seater with a five-speed manual transmission; the Type-B, a four-seater with a five-speed manual transmission; and the Type-C, a four-seater with a four-speed automatic transmission. All three models are equipped with common interior and exterior features, such as BBS-manufactured 17-inch wheels, red brake calipers, and interior panels with a special soft coating, while each model shows off its own equipment to make a difference from the other.
The Type-A Spirit R is a two-seater model fitted with the Recaro-made exclusive red full bucket seats. These lightweight seats reduce the overall chassis weight of the vehicle by approximately 10 kg. Braking performance is enhanced through the use of large drilled type ventilated disk brakes for all four wheels and high rigid stainless mesh brake hoses. The Type-A Spirit R model is the ultimate RX-7, boasting the most outstanding driving performance in its history.
Applicable to any model of the Spirit R, five outer panel colors including Titanium Gray Metallic are available.
1,500 units of the RX-7 'Spirit R' series are sold only in Japan.
The RX-7 line-up is available with the Spirit R series and the special edition model "Type R Bathurst" that was launched last December.
Product Outline of Limited-Production Model 'Spirit R'
Features common to all three series models
- Interior panels with soft coating (meter panel, center panel, center console, power window switch panels)
- Steering wheel and **** with red stitching (Nardi-made leather steering wheel, leather shift ****, leather parking brake lever, and shift boot for manual transmission model)
- Red brake calipers and front strut tower bars
- 17-inch aluminum wheels manufactured by BBS (gun metallic color for Type-A, and silver for Type-B and Type-C)
- Spirit R exclusive ornament
- Spirit R exclusive meters
Exclusive features - Large drilled type bench rated disk brakes for all four wheels (Type-A and Type-B)
- High rigid stainless mesh brake hoses (Type-A and Type-B)
- Exclusive dampers manufactured by Bilstein (Type-A and Type-B)
- Recaro lightweight full bucket seats (Type-A)
- Authentic leather red bucket seats (Type-B and Type-C)
Body Colors
Titanium Gray Metallic (exclusive color for Spirit R series), Innocent Blue Mica, Pure White, Brilliant Black, and Vintage Red
The third-generation RX-7, first launched in 1991, has a particularly distinctive exterior design. Its lightweight, compact and high-output rotary engine enables the driver to feel superb driving pleasure. Epitomizing Mazda's spirit of sports car, RX-7 has won popularity among the customers since its 1978 launch. Mazda envisions the production of the current RX-7 model (FD-3S) to come to an end in August 2002.
The Spirit R series is available in three models: the Type A, a two-seater with a five-speed manual transmission; the Type-B, a four-seater with a five-speed manual transmission; and the Type-C, a four-seater with a four-speed automatic transmission. All three models are equipped with common interior and exterior features, such as BBS-manufactured 17-inch wheels, red brake calipers, and interior panels with a special soft coating, while each model shows off its own equipment to make a difference from the other.
The Type-A Spirit R is a two-seater model fitted with the Recaro-made exclusive red full bucket seats. These lightweight seats reduce the overall chassis weight of the vehicle by approximately 10 kg. Braking performance is enhanced through the use of large drilled type ventilated disk brakes for all four wheels and high rigid stainless mesh brake hoses. The Type-A Spirit R model is the ultimate RX-7, boasting the most outstanding driving performance in its history.
Applicable to any model of the Spirit R, five outer panel colors including Titanium Gray Metallic are available.
1,500 units of the RX-7 'Spirit R' series are sold only in Japan.
The RX-7 line-up is available with the Spirit R series and the special edition model "Type R Bathurst" that was launched last December.
Product Outline of Limited-Production Model 'Spirit R'
Features common to all three series models
- Interior panels with soft coating (meter panel, center panel, center console, power window switch panels)
- Steering wheel and **** with red stitching (Nardi-made leather steering wheel, leather shift ****, leather parking brake lever, and shift boot for manual transmission model)
- Red brake calipers and front strut tower bars
- 17-inch aluminum wheels manufactured by BBS (gun metallic color for Type-A, and silver for Type-B and Type-C)
- Spirit R exclusive ornament
- Spirit R exclusive meters
Exclusive features - Large drilled type bench rated disk brakes for all four wheels (Type-A and Type-B)
- High rigid stainless mesh brake hoses (Type-A and Type-B)
- Exclusive dampers manufactured by Bilstein (Type-A and Type-B)
- Recaro lightweight full bucket seats (Type-A)
- Authentic leather red bucket seats (Type-B and Type-C)
Body Colors
Titanium Gray Metallic (exclusive color for Spirit R series), Innocent Blue Mica, Pure White, Brilliant Black, and Vintage Red
Rumors also claim that there may be a new RX-7, at which point, I'll believe Lock & Loads claims.
Regards,
Gordon
09-01-2004, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by robertdot
There is no RX-7 market in the US, at least not as far as Mazda is concerned. There hasn't been an RX-7 market in the US since '95 (if I remember correctly), which is why they quit selling them here. AFAIK, there hasn't been a RX-7 market elsewhere since '99 (which was the last year they made RX-7s, if my information sources are correct).
As cool as having a status of a cult car is, Mazda would rather have the RX-7 have success like a Miata than a cult car.
Last edited by Magic8; 09-01-2004 at 11:56 AM.
09-01-2004, 12:24 PM
#8
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Originally Posted by Magic8
I wonder if it is more of a questions of: "If there is room for both an RX-7 and a Miata/MX-5." I don't think the general consumer is going to care what powers their vehicles, but do care how many people the car will carry and if they can get a tan driving it around on a sunny day.
As cool as having a status of a cult car is, Mazda would rather have the RX-7 have success like a Miata than a cult car.
As cool as having a status of a cult car is, Mazda would rather have the RX-7 have success like a Miata than a cult car.
09-01-2004, 07:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Gord96BRG
Your sources are very wrong! The last JDM FD RX-7 was produced in August 2002, at which point they shut down the line to prepare for the start of RX-8 production. The last versions of the FD had a 280 hp version of the 13B-REW twin-turbo rotary. For interest, here's a March 24, 2002 press release about the last version of the FD:
There already is a new RX-7 - Mazda had an RX-7 Concept ready to show at last year's Tokyo Motor Show in September, but pulled it from the show at the last minute so as not to distract from the Ibuki and the other concepts they wanted to focus on at that time. They still haven't given a production go-ahead to the J77 RX-7, but it's ready for when they do.
Regards,
Gordon
There already is a new RX-7 - Mazda had an RX-7 Concept ready to show at last year's Tokyo Motor Show in September, but pulled it from the show at the last minute so as not to distract from the Ibuki and the other concepts they wanted to focus on at that time. They still haven't given a production go-ahead to the J77 RX-7, but it's ready for when they do.
Regards,
Gordon
Yeah. I JUST got done reading about the 2002 model on TruboRX7.
Assuming that the RX-7 concept is released to production, I agree with Lock & Load.
Were any photos of the concept released? I'm going to search google, but if anyone has any links, I'd like to see it.
09-19-2004, 09:59 AM
#10
Since the original question involved performance time potential, please allow me to pass along some real-world(more or less) experience in that arena. Since I got my 8, I have been modifying all the different aspects of it, the most noticeable of which was/is the nitrous system. I also have the usual versions of the intake, exhaust, flywheel/clutch, and etc. As it stands, my G-Tech has indicated low 14's at 99 or so mph prior to the nitrous. This is somewhat confirmed by my routinely smoking stock Mustang GT's in various performance comparisons. When I added the nitrous, a 55 h.p. boost, my G-Tech indicated low 13's at 109 mph. This is on stock tires/wheels with massive wheelspin through first and second gears. The 0-60 times were around 5.0-5.2 seconds with 60' times of 2.2 seconds. I am now tending to think that the G-Tech reliability and accuracy is better than most people would believe. I'd also be willing to bet that in comparing the G-Tech to actual dragstrip chronometers we would find a greater level of inaccuracy or variability among people than we would the devices, themselves. My measure of 13.3 sec. is probably not too far off as I recently did an acceleration "comparison" against my good friend's mildly modified Evo8. His Escort reported times in the mid 12's. From a 20 roll we dropped the hammers and his mouth gaped in disbelief as I leaped to a three-car lead and never looked back, with my tires spinning until my first gear change. When I was researching nitrous versus FI, I concluded that a 55 h.p. shot equates an FI boost of approximately 3.5 lbs, based on 220 h.p. at the flywheel. With a weight of 3,269 entered in the G-Tech I was getting 235 w.h.p. I would say that the performance gains could be roughly predicted using such formulae combined with prior experience. When FI was first discussed most tuners were confident with a 5-8 lb. boost on the stock engine. As it now stands, my impression is that those same tuners/racers are growing more confident the further they get into the Renesis. This confirms my earliest suspicions based on philosophy and history, alone. Rotarygod can confirm this. That's why I was quite sure a 55 h.p. boost would work with no trouble. Strengthwise, the Renny will handle around a 100 h.p. boost rather easily with the proper tuning, IMO. That's my next target, with 75 h.p. being a slight stop over on the way. I am still using the factory ECU with the "L" flash but once I can get a piggyback that I like, I'll be able to get into the mid to low 12's on a set of drag radials, or maybe even good street tires. Of course, the factory drivetrain will be where the weaknesses in the RX-8 lie, if there are any concerns to be had. I know Ito has done more than his fair share in testing the durability of the factory transmission, but I have yet to experience any problems with mine.
Charles
Charles
Last edited by Charles R. Hill; 09-19-2004 at 10:11 AM.
09-19-2004, 12:18 PM
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Not sure how you come up with 3.5lbs of boost equating your current HP level since boost is not a linear figure. Different superchargers, turbochargers, tuning, manifolds, intercoolers, and tuning will all play a huge role in how much HP forced induction makes. If you look at the 3rd gen RX-7's they made around 220whp on 10psi stock but with a full 3" exhaust and a stand alone ECU you could make over 300whp on 10psi. However there are certain types of superchargers or turbos you could use that would only make 230whp on an RX-8 with 7 or 8 lbs of boost, not to mention exhaust modifications etc. will have a huge effect on the power gains. I think the biggest problems arent with the forced induction but in order of most important in my opinion with the engine seals and ports, ECU and transmission. Keep up the good work testing Charles as they're aren't too many people out there doing this stuff to their own car and good to see you have had some good results.
09-20-2004, 07:27 AM
#12
If you take a given engine and tune it for N/A operation the output can be measured. If you take that same engine and put 14.6 pounds of boost on it and tune it properly, the output will be close to double the h.p. measured when N/A. The formula is not precisely linear but predictable, nonetheless. In my own trevails I used 220 h.p. as a fly figure because most were reporting 178 +/- at the wheels and the opinions from the resident sages was around 40 h.p. drivetrain loss. With all that in mind I set about my upgrades and, so far, things have gone as expected or better.
The first example you give regarding the 3rd gen. is flawed because it is already boosted in your example. A better example would be to measure the h.p. of the 3rd gen prior to boost and then after boost. With 10 lbs. you would most likely find a before and after gain of 67%. A numerical example would be that a given engine may put out, say, 300 h.p.(N/A) but with 14.6 lbs. of boost the potential would be 600 h.p. The mannerisms of the engine in question would be directly related to the nature of the tune, itself. The reason I think there is a certain linearity to all this is because we can objectively measure and predict the airflow through an engine under N/A conditions(14.6 psi/1 bar) and then again under boost conditions(another 14.6 psi/2 bar) as in the above example. Since engines are air pumps, by design, knowing the amount of overall airflow will give us a pretty good idea of the h.p. potential of a particular engine. One of the tuner magazines had this same curiosity and did some A/B dyno tests before and after boost. They discovered that there is a linear nature to the boost question.
Thanks for the props on the project and let's examine and discuss the potential for performance upgrades on the RX-8 in more detail. I like this conversation.
Charles
The first example you give regarding the 3rd gen. is flawed because it is already boosted in your example. A better example would be to measure the h.p. of the 3rd gen prior to boost and then after boost. With 10 lbs. you would most likely find a before and after gain of 67%. A numerical example would be that a given engine may put out, say, 300 h.p.(N/A) but with 14.6 lbs. of boost the potential would be 600 h.p. The mannerisms of the engine in question would be directly related to the nature of the tune, itself. The reason I think there is a certain linearity to all this is because we can objectively measure and predict the airflow through an engine under N/A conditions(14.6 psi/1 bar) and then again under boost conditions(another 14.6 psi/2 bar) as in the above example. Since engines are air pumps, by design, knowing the amount of overall airflow will give us a pretty good idea of the h.p. potential of a particular engine. One of the tuner magazines had this same curiosity and did some A/B dyno tests before and after boost. They discovered that there is a linear nature to the boost question.
Thanks for the props on the project and let's examine and discuss the potential for performance upgrades on the RX-8 in more detail. I like this conversation.
Charles
09-20-2004, 08:12 AM
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To add to what I want to see from my car. I'm really not concerned with hp or torque numbers, just bragging rights as far as I'm concerned. I'd like to see 1/4 miles in the 12.5 range and a 0-60 in the 4 range.
Closely watching the Richard Paul and Hymee supercharger developments. Not as interested in the Pettit roots-type, but still a consideration.
Closely watching the Richard Paul and Hymee supercharger developments. Not as interested in the Pettit roots-type, but still a consideration.
09-20-2004, 01:05 PM
#14
I am well on my way to numbers like those, as mentioned above. At the least, we know the drivetrain can handle repeated low 13 second blasts on the stock rollers and with bang-free shifts.
Charles
Charles
09-20-2004, 01:34 PM
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Thanks Rotarygod, didn't see they were doing both, I suppose that would be the more expensive option?
Charles, I saw you're running low 13's with nitrous. I just don't want the hassle of it and would rather have an SC that I don't have to refill or do any type of upkeep on.
Charles, I saw you're running low 13's with nitrous. I just don't want the hassle of it and would rather have an SC that I don't have to refill or do any type of upkeep on.
09-20-2004, 10:49 PM
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They also use nitromethane which doesn't require an intercooler and they are the ONLY supercharger allowed by the rules. They have no choice. They'd make more power if the rules permitted it. They already can't get enough traction so they don't really need any more power.
09-21-2004, 05:19 AM
#21
I have been surprised as to how long 10 pounds of nitrous has lasted me(pretty much a Summer's worth of weekends!). I used three pounds during the initial testing and tuning phase. I then re-filled the tank and have numerous blasts while at the same time I still have a solid 700 lbs. of pressure left. I have discovered that my black paint provides a good trunk temperature for the nitrous tank. If it is 75 degrees, or more, outside the tank stays warm enough for that night's races. In addition, I didn't have to fab up piping and stuff. Maybe I'll re-consider the nitrous versus FI decision when I see a well-thought-out and tested system. I find myself quite happy with the nitrous, though.
Charles
Charles
09-21-2004, 05:26 AM
#22
Regarding the drag racing use of Roots-type supers, it is my understanding that there are several classes (aside from Top Fuel, Funny Car, and Modified) that allow the use of any type of forced induction and several racers are allowed, and do use, centrifugals such as Procharger and others. In some of these classes we see screw-type, centrifugal, turbos, and nitrous all competing with each other. Those classes make for some very interesting setups from which we may learn.
Charles
Charles
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