Dynoing the RE Intake
03-23-2004, 12:58 AM
#51
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Hello Chuck,
What is your opinion regarding the ABS light that appears on the dash when performing a dyno on a Touring or GT model? Do you give any credence to the reported power cut or what is referred to as "limp mode"?
What is your opinion regarding the ABS light that appears on the dash when performing a dyno on a Touring or GT model? Do you give any credence to the reported power cut or what is referred to as "limp mode"?
03-23-2004, 01:27 AM
#52
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ABS light comes on because the front wheel is not turning. You put any car with ABS on the dyno, the ABS warning light will come on.
On my pre order (first batch) silver Sport Package 6 speed car which is also equipped with DSC, I got 185 rwhp. I tested it out on different days at the same dyno shop we went to and the result is the same. My other customer, Pomanferrari's car is a pre-order one and he got the same result. Recently, most people report 168 rwhp, such as JECS and BlkSF8's case. I suspect with the reflash, Mazda did something else to the ECU which I don't know what they did. Maybe the new reflash has a limp mode but the pre-order one doesn't.
Either way, I have never seen any stock car dynoed at 200 rwhp which should be corresponding to Mazda's 238 flywheel HP claim no matter how you dyno it. Canzoomer's car registered about 175 rwhp using his procedure and those numbers are already SAE corrected according to his dyno sheet. So if there is really a limp mode, maybe the procedure he used didn't really stop it from happening.
Of course, you can try both ways on the dyno to see if it makes a difference. It's not going to do any harm. It's just more time on the dyno and more money you have to spend. :D
Chuck Huang
On my pre order (first batch) silver Sport Package 6 speed car which is also equipped with DSC, I got 185 rwhp. I tested it out on different days at the same dyno shop we went to and the result is the same. My other customer, Pomanferrari's car is a pre-order one and he got the same result. Recently, most people report 168 rwhp, such as JECS and BlkSF8's case. I suspect with the reflash, Mazda did something else to the ECU which I don't know what they did. Maybe the new reflash has a limp mode but the pre-order one doesn't.
Either way, I have never seen any stock car dynoed at 200 rwhp which should be corresponding to Mazda's 238 flywheel HP claim no matter how you dyno it. Canzoomer's car registered about 175 rwhp using his procedure and those numbers are already SAE corrected according to his dyno sheet. So if there is really a limp mode, maybe the procedure he used didn't really stop it from happening.
Of course, you can try both ways on the dyno to see if it makes a difference. It's not going to do any harm. It's just more time on the dyno and more money you have to spend. :D
Chuck Huang
Originally posted by brothervoodoo
Hello Chuck,
What is your opinion regarding the ABS light that appears on the dash when performing a dyno on a Touring or GT model? Do you give any credence to the reported power cut or what is referred to as "limp mode"?
Hello Chuck,
What is your opinion regarding the ABS light that appears on the dash when performing a dyno on a Touring or GT model? Do you give any credence to the reported power cut or what is referred to as "limp mode"?
03-23-2004, 02:35 AM
#53
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Originally posted by Rotary Extreme
ABS light comes on because the front wheel is not turning. You put any car with ABS on the dyno, the ABS warning light will come on.
Either way, I have never seen any stock car dynoed at 200 rwhp which should be corresponding to Mazda's 238 flywheel HP claim no matter how you dyno it. Canzoomer's car registered about 175 rwhp using his procedure and those numbers are already SAE corrected according to his dyno sheet. So if there is really a limp mode, maybe the procedure he used didn't really stop it from happening.
Chuck Huang
ABS light comes on because the front wheel is not turning. You put any car with ABS on the dyno, the ABS warning light will come on.
Either way, I have never seen any stock car dynoed at 200 rwhp which should be corresponding to Mazda's 238 flywheel HP claim no matter how you dyno it. Canzoomer's car registered about 175 rwhp using his procedure and those numbers are already SAE corrected according to his dyno sheet. So if there is really a limp mode, maybe the procedure he used didn't really stop it from happening.
Chuck Huang
Tying off the rear wheel sensors is a pretty effective way to turn this limp mode off.
In a given Dynojet run I see a difference shown depending on what correction method you use.
For example:
The car run you mention at 175HP is at SAE correction factor, and shows 183HP using the STD correction factor.
However you mix it up, however i totally agree with one thing you say:
The RX-8 should make less than 15% parasitic loss. Consider this:
No steering pump
Generator instead of alternator ( no field drag)
Lightweight composite fibre driveshaft.
VERY light driveline parts in general.
Mazda's "238HP" claim would result in a 202HP rear wheel, and NOBODY has hit that on a dyno unless they cheated , lied, or modified the car.
The stock RX-8 motor makes about 205HP at the crank. Period.
Fortunately it is not that hard to get it back to 235 to 250HP.
Our kits and an exhaust system get you up to 250HP.
Also, there is no way the JSPEC engine makes 247HP at the crank either. Dyno's done on Japan cars show about 205HP AT BEST, so that translates to 240 at the crank.
Close maybe, but no cigar.
03-23-2004, 02:39 AM
#54
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Originally posted by bureau13
Actually, I believe the last thing I saw CZ post on the topic, the ECU went into limp mode after 20-30 seconds, with the ABS sensors out of the way...that's more than enough time for a dyno pull (I should hope!). However I don't think anyone is saying they don't get 200 rwhp due to limp mode or huge drivetrain losses, they're saying its because even the 238 number is overstated in stock form.
I would think however that if some kind of limp mode were responsible for the lower numbers the curve would look funny, rather than simply show less power.
jds
Actually, I believe the last thing I saw CZ post on the topic, the ECU went into limp mode after 20-30 seconds, with the ABS sensors out of the way...that's more than enough time for a dyno pull (I should hope!). However I don't think anyone is saying they don't get 200 rwhp due to limp mode or huge drivetrain losses, they're saying its because even the 238 number is overstated in stock form.
I would think however that if some kind of limp mode were responsible for the lower numbers the curve would look funny, rather than simply show less power.
jds
We tie back the rear wheel sensors, so they do not read wheel speed, and this prevents limp mode.
On a 175HP car when the ABS light is triggered power drops down to around 163HP
03-23-2004, 03:05 AM
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Maurice:
If you look at my dyno sheets, they are all SAE corrected. I don't use standard correction.
187.3 rwhp from my pre order car is SAE corrected. So if you use the STD correction, that will bring it up to 192 rwhp. I didn't disconnect the ABS sensor and I believe when I dynoed the car back on 10-29-03, you haven't started using that procedure.
If you can outline your latest dyno procedure and show me the difference between them, I can arrange another run and try it out. I would like to see them before I spend more money on the dyno if you don't mind. I would also like to know if you test them out at least 3-4 runs for each setup witout cooling off period on the dyno.
I would also like to know how you can run the car on the dyno within 10 sec. Please outline the procedure as clearly as possible.
Chuck Huang
If you look at my dyno sheets, they are all SAE corrected. I don't use standard correction.
187.3 rwhp from my pre order car is SAE corrected. So if you use the STD correction, that will bring it up to 192 rwhp. I didn't disconnect the ABS sensor and I believe when I dynoed the car back on 10-29-03, you haven't started using that procedure.
If you can outline your latest dyno procedure and show me the difference between them, I can arrange another run and try it out. I would like to see them before I spend more money on the dyno if you don't mind. I would also like to know if you test them out at least 3-4 runs for each setup witout cooling off period on the dyno.
I would also like to know how you can run the car on the dyno within 10 sec. Please outline the procedure as clearly as possible.
Chuck Huang
Originally posted by canzoomer
I see about a 10-15HP difference with limp mode triggered versus no limp mode. This is on 4 different 8's.
Tying off the rear wheel sensors is a pretty effective way to turn this limp mode off.
In a given Dynojet run I see a difference shown depending on what correction method you use.
For example:
The car run you mention at 175HP is at SAE correction factor, and shows 183HP using the STD correction factor.
However you mix it up, however i totally agree with one thing you say:
The RX-8 should make less than 15% parasitic loss. Consider this:
No steering pump
Generator instead of alternator ( no field drag)
Lightweight composite fibre driveshaft.
VERY light driveline parts in general.
Mazda's "238HP" claim would result in a 202HP rear wheel, and NOBODY has hit that on a dyno unless they cheated , lied, or modified the car.
The stock RX-8 motor makes about 205HP at the crank. Period.
Fortunately it is not that hard to get it back to 235 to 250HP.
Our kits and an exhaust system get you up to 250HP.
Also, there is no way the JSPEC engine makes 247HP at the crank either. Dyno's done on Japan cars show about 205HP AT BEST, so that translates to 240 at the crank.
Close maybe, but no cigar.
I see about a 10-15HP difference with limp mode triggered versus no limp mode. This is on 4 different 8's.
Tying off the rear wheel sensors is a pretty effective way to turn this limp mode off.
In a given Dynojet run I see a difference shown depending on what correction method you use.
For example:
The car run you mention at 175HP is at SAE correction factor, and shows 183HP using the STD correction factor.
However you mix it up, however i totally agree with one thing you say:
The RX-8 should make less than 15% parasitic loss. Consider this:
No steering pump
Generator instead of alternator ( no field drag)
Lightweight composite fibre driveshaft.
VERY light driveline parts in general.
Mazda's "238HP" claim would result in a 202HP rear wheel, and NOBODY has hit that on a dyno unless they cheated , lied, or modified the car.
The stock RX-8 motor makes about 205HP at the crank. Period.
Fortunately it is not that hard to get it back to 235 to 250HP.
Our kits and an exhaust system get you up to 250HP.
Also, there is no way the JSPEC engine makes 247HP at the crank either. Dyno's done on Japan cars show about 205HP AT BEST, so that translates to 240 at the crank.
Close maybe, but no cigar.
Last edited by Rotary Extreme; 03-23-2004 at 03:07 AM.
03-23-2004, 03:29 AM
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Originally posted by compaddict
It seems to me that you are in fact manipulating the data to prove your point (and sell your product at the same time).
It also seem to me that every time you are asked to substantiate your claims you only do it on your terms.
If I am allowed to prove my point the same way that you are trying to prove yours (using all the runs) I believe the best claim that you would be able to make is that you don’t loose any HP.
Vince
It seems to me that you are in fact manipulating the data to prove your point (and sell your product at the same time).
It also seem to me that every time you are asked to substantiate your claims you only do it on your terms.
If I am allowed to prove my point the same way that you are trying to prove yours (using all the runs) I believe the best claim that you would be able to make is that you don’t loose any HP.
Vince
Moreover, the figures he showed are consistent with my experience of these intake kits. Badly designed ones actually kill low-end torque.
03-23-2004, 04:11 AM
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Since you work for Ford and Mazda is owned by Ford. You got any inside scoop that you can share? Any limp mode? Why does pre-order (first batch from Japan) makes more power? Why are there so many reflahses?
Chuck Huang
Chuck Huang
Originally posted by IKnowNot'ing
Although I don't recommend changing the OEM intake system, I don't believe Chuck is manipulating data to sell his stuff. If he was, he would have come up with bigger numbers.
Moreover, the figures he showed are consistent with my experience of these intake kits. Badly designed ones actually kill low-end torque.
Although I don't recommend changing the OEM intake system, I don't believe Chuck is manipulating data to sell his stuff. If he was, he would have come up with bigger numbers.
Moreover, the figures he showed are consistent with my experience of these intake kits. Badly designed ones actually kill low-end torque.
03-23-2004, 12:16 PM
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Oh, and while you're answering Chuck's list of imponderable questions IKnowNot'ing, could you also tell me why you don't have a picture of Shultz from Hogan's Heros as your avatar? :D
03-23-2004, 01:33 PM
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Originally posted by Rotary Extreme
Since you work for Ford and Mazda is owned by Ford. You got any inside scoop that you can share? Any limp mode? Why does pre-order (first batch from Japan) makes more power? Why are there so many reflahses?
Chuck Huang
Since you work for Ford and Mazda is owned by Ford. You got any inside scoop that you can share? Any limp mode? Why does pre-order (first batch from Japan) makes more power? Why are there so many reflahses?
Chuck Huang
Re the power issue, I read a few threads here and there about that issue. I don't know the details. I have an opinion about it, but before disclosing it, I'd like to get more info. Will do a search on this. U can also recommend threads.
Reflashes : you can have reflashes for two main reasons :
1) to improve / fix bugs in the ECU strategy (or software) : I don't remember of any such reflash occuring.
2) to improve / correct calibration (or mapping) : e.g. Mondeo with hesitation on overrun due to too much retarded spark.
However, I don't remember of so many reflashes occuring on models I worked on. A dealer would be in a better position to compare an RX8 againt other models in term of frequency of reflashes.
I could not help you much on this one apparently. I would just make a last comment :
in an industry where enginners are strained to deliver the goods in always shorter development timing, we should not be surprised that most products come to the market with a lot of things to redesign.
03-23-2004, 01:42 PM
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Originally posted by Omicron
...could you also tell me why you don't have a picture of Shultz from Hogan's Heros as your avatar? :D
...could you also tell me why you don't have a picture of Shultz from Hogan's Heros as your avatar? :D
I do know Hogan's Heroes and Shultz. But why???
03-23-2004, 01:54 PM
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Originally posted by IKnowNot'ing
????
I do know Hogan's Heroes and Shultz. But why???
????
I do know Hogan's Heroes and Shultz. But why???
03-23-2004, 01:55 PM
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Originally posted by IKnowNot'ing
... I don't remember of so many reflashes occuring on models I worked on...
... I don't remember of so many reflashes occuring on models I worked on...
03-23-2004, 02:13 PM
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Originally posted by Omicron
I think Mazda knows full well they screwed up the ECU settings on the RX-8 badly, and they are fixing them, but GRADUALLY so as not to lose face. Hence the many reflashes.
I think Mazda knows full well they screwed up the ECU settings on the RX-8 badly, and they are fixing them, but GRADUALLY so as not to lose face. Hence the many reflashes.
There must be at least 6 to 8 calibration families and maybe as many strategies out there for the RX8 :
- 2 for North America (AT and 6MT) and maybe two more for more stringent emissions levels (California?)
- 2 for Europe (5MT 192 and 6MT 231 hp)
- 2 to 4 for Japan (lo/hi power - AT/MT/sequential...)
- maybe some more ROW cals (Rest Of the World) : at least one cal per country with specific emission levels and per model.
The fact that these reflashes are not done as a 'recall' probably means that there is no major issues with the original cal/strategy (no major customer complaints, no potential component failure).
I guess Mazda engineers keep working and improving the cal/strategy and make the result of their work available to the customers via the dealer network to address small, specific issues.
03-23-2004, 02:16 PM
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Originally posted by Omicron
LOL, because Shultz was always telling Colonel Hogan and his crew "I Know Not'ing, Not'ing!" and your screen name always brings Shultz's voice to mind saying that.
LOL, because Shultz was always telling Colonel Hogan and his crew "I Know Not'ing, Not'ing!" and your screen name always brings Shultz's voice to mind saying that.
03-23-2004, 05:34 PM
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Originally posted by IKnowNot'ing
No, no, no. My 'IKnowNot'ing' comes from Manuel (see pix), of Fawlty Towers...
No, no, no. My 'IKnowNot'ing' comes from Manuel (see pix), of Fawlty Towers...
03-23-2004, 08:57 PM
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thanks omicron!
Originally posted by Omicron
Compuaddict/Vince -
It's become obvious to me that no matter what Rotary Extreme/Chuck has to say or post, you will find some reason to attack it or him. Your whole argument last time was that you asked for raw data and he did not provide it to you, even though you were not "due" anything. So now he provides raw data, AND independant witnesses, AND pays for 3 different sets of Dyno runs - and it's STILL not enough for you.
It's obvious you will never be satisfied, and I have had it.
Give it a rest. Now. The warnings on this in the past have been in private, and you have listened only briefly. This one is in public to wake you up. Your attacks on Rotary Extreme are excessive, uncalled for, and counterproductive to the forum. They will not be tolerated any longer. Continue, and you will be banned. Find something else to crusade about, I've had it with this.
EDIT: Ok, since you chose to "retaliate" by opening a new thread and directing your attacks at me, you're outta here.
Compuaddict/Vince -
It's become obvious to me that no matter what Rotary Extreme/Chuck has to say or post, you will find some reason to attack it or him. Your whole argument last time was that you asked for raw data and he did not provide it to you, even though you were not "due" anything. So now he provides raw data, AND independant witnesses, AND pays for 3 different sets of Dyno runs - and it's STILL not enough for you.
It's obvious you will never be satisfied, and I have had it.
Give it a rest. Now. The warnings on this in the past have been in private, and you have listened only briefly. This one is in public to wake you up. Your attacks on Rotary Extreme are excessive, uncalled for, and counterproductive to the forum. They will not be tolerated any longer. Continue, and you will be banned. Find something else to crusade about, I've had it with this.
EDIT: Ok, since you chose to "retaliate" by opening a new thread and directing your attacks at me, you're outta here.
03-23-2004, 09:23 PM
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Just a quick note from a guy who owns a dyno. You need to do at least 4 runs to get any engine up to operating temp before you can start comparing anything. if you try and compare dyno run .001 with any other run, you are not comparing apples to apples. The proper procedure is to take the best HP reading of your first four runs (baseline), and then compare it to the best HP reading of your next four runs, after your modification or performance part is installed. This is the method that Dynojet reccomends. Any vehicle will gain HP, from run .001 to .004 and then will either do one of two things, keep making that power consistently, or start to drop off....and if it starts to drop then your cooling methods (i.e. fans to keep the car cool and simulate road conditions) are inadequate. Period. You simply cannot do one run .001 then bolt on a part and do 10 more runs and determine anything in a scientific method.
03-23-2004, 09:31 PM
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Totally agree with you and that's the methond we use. But instead of just comparing the best run. We also compare the worst run to make sure the product works in all kinds of situation. Thank you for the input.
Chuck Huang
Chuck Huang
Originally posted by FoxPerformance
Just a quick note from a guy who owns a dyno. You need to do at least 4 runs to get any engine up to operating temp before you can start comparing anything. if you try and compare dyno run .001 with any other run, you are not comparing apples to apples. The proper procedure is to take the best HP reading of your first four runs (baseline), and then compare it to the best HP reading of your next four runs, after your modification or performance part is installed. This is the method that Dynojet reccomends. Any vehicle will gain HP, from run .001 to .004 and then will either do one of two things, keep making that power consistently, or start to drop off....and if it starts to drop then your cooling methods (i.e. fans to keep the car cool and simulate road conditions) are inadequate. Period. You simply cannot do one run .001 then bolt on a part and do 10 more runs and determine anything in a scientific method.
Just a quick note from a guy who owns a dyno. You need to do at least 4 runs to get any engine up to operating temp before you can start comparing anything. if you try and compare dyno run .001 with any other run, you are not comparing apples to apples. The proper procedure is to take the best HP reading of your first four runs (baseline), and then compare it to the best HP reading of your next four runs, after your modification or performance part is installed. This is the method that Dynojet reccomends. Any vehicle will gain HP, from run .001 to .004 and then will either do one of two things, keep making that power consistently, or start to drop off....and if it starts to drop then your cooling methods (i.e. fans to keep the car cool and simulate road conditions) are inadequate. Period. You simply cannot do one run .001 then bolt on a part and do 10 more runs and determine anything in a scientific method.
04-23-2004, 11:35 PM
#73
if your not 1st your last
chuck im a believer and will be purchasing your intake
over k&n.
p.s something about the silver top cover
will drive me nuts,needs a r.e symbol or sticker on it.
over k&n.
p.s something about the silver top cover
will drive me nuts,needs a r.e symbol or sticker on it.
04-24-2004, 04:33 AM
#74
A few tips from one who has the RE intake. First, the 2" mounting spec is VERY important due to turbulence around the MAF sensor. If it is not done right you will get a CEL and erratic idle. Second, be very careful with the MAF o-ring. If you damage it, get any dirt or fluids on it, or re-install it improperly you will develop a vacuum leak. This will, again, lead to a CEL and erratic idle. A replacement ring costs about 8 bucks. Third, before you install it you might as well line the box w/acoustic foam, insulation, or whatever to reduce the harmonic ringing. It only takes a few minutes to do and it really helps the sound. I have set mine up properly and the car's performance has been enhanced just as I expected. Great product, Mr. Huang.
Charles
Charles
04-28-2004, 06:20 PM
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I believe in testing and showing results from products, but after reading this thread, I believe there should be a totally unbiased testing environment set to show parts results.
This is almost impossible though, even magazine tests are biased towards certain products due to advertising payoffs and such.
Every consumer just has to ask around, risk and take a chance on the products and also use your own common sense in purchasing aftermarket solutions. From your own experiences and other people's experiences is where the real solution is to examining how good or bad the product is.
This is why we have RX8club.com and also the many other boards to ask around. Internet, such a great thing
This is almost impossible though, even magazine tests are biased towards certain products due to advertising payoffs and such.
Every consumer just has to ask around, risk and take a chance on the products and also use your own common sense in purchasing aftermarket solutions. From your own experiences and other people's experiences is where the real solution is to examining how good or bad the product is.
This is why we have RX8club.com and also the many other boards to ask around. Internet, such a great thing
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