Dynoing the RE Intake
03-21-2004, 09:42 AM
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Actually, I believe the last thing I saw CZ post on the topic, the ECU went into limp mode after 20-30 seconds, with the ABS sensors out of the way...that's more than enough time for a dyno pull (I should hope!). However I don't think anyone is saying they don't get 200 rwhp due to limp mode or huge drivetrain losses, they're saying its because even the 238 number is overstated in stock form.
I would think however that if some kind of limp mode were responsible for the lower numbers the curve would look funny, rather than simply show less power.
jds
I would think however that if some kind of limp mode were responsible for the lower numbers the curve would look funny, rather than simply show less power.
jds
Originally posted by Rotary Extreme
Gordan:
BTW, if you want, you can dyno your car according to Canzoomer's procedure to see if you can get any SAE corrected 200 rwhp on the dyno from a complete stock car. If you can get me the dynosheet showing 200 rwhp, I don't mind getting those guys together again and test the cars on the dyno following the procedure.
The only way I see it's possibe to do so will be run it at first gear and pop the clutch on the dyno like you are drag racing so you can accelerate from 1000 to 9000 rpm in less than 10 sec. The dyno tech better do it fast too becuase when the wheels start rolling, the count starts so you can't even do rolling start.
Chuck Huang
Gordan:
BTW, if you want, you can dyno your car according to Canzoomer's procedure to see if you can get any SAE corrected 200 rwhp on the dyno from a complete stock car. If you can get me the dynosheet showing 200 rwhp, I don't mind getting those guys together again and test the cars on the dyno following the procedure.
The only way I see it's possibe to do so will be run it at first gear and pop the clutch on the dyno like you are drag racing so you can accelerate from 1000 to 9000 rpm in less than 10 sec. The dyno tech better do it fast too becuase when the wheels start rolling, the count starts so you can't even do rolling start.
Chuck Huang
03-21-2004, 10:09 AM
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Originally posted by bureau13
Actually, I believe the last thing I saw CZ post on the topic, the ECU went into limp mode after 20-30 seconds, with the ABS sensors out of the way...
Actually, I believe the last thing I saw CZ post on the topic, the ECU went into limp mode after 20-30 seconds, with the ABS sensors out of the way...
03-21-2004, 11:33 AM
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Welp, for those people who have criticized Rotary Extreme's intake, this set of multiple dynos with multiple independant witnesses is pretty solid evidence that all the accusations were unfounded. Chuck's even putting the raw dyno data up on his website for those that want to see it.
I'd say some apologies are in order.
I'd also like to take this opportunity to point out that despite the multiple attacks, Chuck is one of the few rotary tuners to go so far as to pay for independant dyno testing. Pretty "extreme" measure to please this community, don't you think?
I'd say some apologies are in order.
I'd also like to take this opportunity to point out that despite the multiple attacks, Chuck is one of the few rotary tuners to go so far as to pay for independant dyno testing. Pretty "extreme" measure to please this community, don't you think?
03-21-2004, 02:45 PM
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The way the torque curve is scaled on that graph makes it looks like there is a huge drop. Each drop is about 10 ft-lb of torque. The torque scale doe not start at 0 but it stars at 90. When I post the dyno raw data later today, you can use the dynojet software and rescale it on the viewer program. You will see the bumps occur when the different intake valve opens. There are definitely there when you are driving.
You can also dyno your car to see it yourself in person.
Chuck Huang
http://www.rotaryextreme.com
You can also dyno your car to see it yourself in person.
Chuck Huang
http://www.rotaryextreme.com
Originally posted by IKnowNot'ing
Power : + 4.3 % ; Torque : + 1.8 %.
That's, as expected (by me that is), well under the 5 % line where a very experimented vehicle appraisal specialist can detect any change in performance.
Normal users like us need more than a 10% increase to feel any difference !!
And I don't even mention test to test variability of rolling dynos...
EDIT : very interesting curves though, showing how torque is delivered across the rpm range, and the bumps (I don't feelthemwhile driving). Thanks
Power : + 4.3 % ; Torque : + 1.8 %.
That's, as expected (by me that is), well under the 5 % line where a very experimented vehicle appraisal specialist can detect any change in performance.
Normal users like us need more than a 10% increase to feel any difference !!
And I don't even mention test to test variability of rolling dynos...
EDIT : very interesting curves though, showing how torque is delivered across the rpm range, and the bumps (I don't feelthemwhile driving). Thanks
03-22-2004, 12:39 AM
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Dyno analysis and raw data posted here.
http://www.rotaryextreme.com/rx8dyno.html
Have fun.
Chuck Huang
http://www.rotaryextreme.com
http://www.rotaryextreme.com/rx8dyno.html
Have fun.
Chuck Huang
http://www.rotaryextreme.com
03-22-2004, 01:49 PM
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You obviously did not read any of the analysis. After each run, the heat soak factor gets into place and you will see a very consistent HP and Torque drop run after run. If you compared the best runs of both, the intake makes more power. I have shown the dyno sheet there and blksf8 did that too. If you compared the worst runs when the engine is totally heat soaked, the intake still makes more power. If you compare the corresponding runs such as run 2 from the stock intake vs run 2 from the RE intake, the intake still makes more power.
I gave rx8guy, blksf8, brothervoodoo, and Mr. Weston all the raw data so they can verify my statements and they saw those runs in person.
I don't want to post all the raw data because people who don't know how to do the analysis or people who have wicked intention will compare the best run of the stock intake when engine is at normal operating temp with the worst run of the my cold air intake when the engine is totally heat soaked to show there is no gain or even worst than stock. To do a fair comparision, you have to compare runs with the same engine operating condition. So either you compare the worst runs from both or the best runs from both. Or runs in between with the same engine condition. You never compare worst to best. As a engineer as you claimed, I am pretty sure you know that if you want to test a variable, you need to keep all the other variable fixed.
Fourth gear pull gives the car enough load the the rpm does not move up as fast so the a/f datalogging will be accurate. That's explained in the analysis.
I have done my part and asked regular people like yourself and tested the products on their cars. If you have more problem with my result, which you always do by calling me a crook or a liar without basis, you are more than welcome to do the testing yourself. While you are at it, show me how much horsepower at the wheel a Mazdaspeed flywheel can give you.
Chuck Huang
I gave rx8guy, blksf8, brothervoodoo, and Mr. Weston all the raw data so they can verify my statements and they saw those runs in person.
I don't want to post all the raw data because people who don't know how to do the analysis or people who have wicked intention will compare the best run of the stock intake when engine is at normal operating temp with the worst run of the my cold air intake when the engine is totally heat soaked to show there is no gain or even worst than stock. To do a fair comparision, you have to compare runs with the same engine operating condition. So either you compare the worst runs from both or the best runs from both. Or runs in between with the same engine condition. You never compare worst to best. As a engineer as you claimed, I am pretty sure you know that if you want to test a variable, you need to keep all the other variable fixed.
Fourth gear pull gives the car enough load the the rpm does not move up as fast so the a/f datalogging will be accurate. That's explained in the analysis.
I have done my part and asked regular people like yourself and tested the products on their cars. If you have more problem with my result, which you always do by calling me a crook or a liar without basis, you are more than welcome to do the testing yourself. While you are at it, show me how much horsepower at the wheel a Mazdaspeed flywheel can give you.
Chuck Huang
Originally posted by compaddict
I don't see any real difference besides what's normal between runs.
Can you post all the data from all the runs please?
And why did you do fourth gear pulls?
Vince
I don't see any real difference besides what's normal between runs.
Can you post all the data from all the runs please?
And why did you do fourth gear pulls?
Vince
Last edited by Rotary Extreme; 03-22-2004 at 01:57 PM.
03-22-2004, 02:03 PM
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great write up chuck. i am very confident in the gains that the rotary extreme intake makes now. anybody else who reads through the data should be able to discern a 8 hp gain over stock!
03-22-2004, 02:22 PM
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If he has raw data to show me that using his procedure will make the graph look any different, I will try that next time. Doing the dyno run at 4th gear takes 30-40 sec. I have video clip to show that.
http://www.rotaryextreme.com/rx8exhaust-1.MPG
You will need to right click and save target as because the file is too big for buffer to work.
I think we should ask Racing Beat the question if there is really a limp mode since they use engine dyno and there is no wheel to turn to begin with.
Chuck Huang
http://www.rotaryextreme.com/rx8exhaust-1.MPG
You will need to right click and save target as because the file is too big for buffer to work.
I think we should ask Racing Beat the question if there is really a limp mode since they use engine dyno and there is no wheel to turn to begin with.
Chuck Huang
Originally posted by bureau13
Actually, I believe the last thing I saw CZ post on the topic, the ECU went into limp mode after 20-30 seconds, with the ABS sensors out of the way...that's more than enough time for a dyno pull (I should hope!). However I don't think anyone is saying they don't get 200 rwhp due to limp mode or huge drivetrain losses, they're saying its because even the 238 number is overstated in stock form.
I would think however that if some kind of limp mode were responsible for the lower numbers the curve would look funny, rather than simply show less power.
jds
Actually, I believe the last thing I saw CZ post on the topic, the ECU went into limp mode after 20-30 seconds, with the ABS sensors out of the way...that's more than enough time for a dyno pull (I should hope!). However I don't think anyone is saying they don't get 200 rwhp due to limp mode or huge drivetrain losses, they're saying its because even the 238 number is overstated in stock form.
I would think however that if some kind of limp mode were responsible for the lower numbers the curve would look funny, rather than simply show less power.
jds
03-22-2004, 02:42 PM
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It seems to me that you are in fact manipulating the data to prove your point (and sell your product at the same time).
It also seem to me that every time you are asked to substantiate your claims you only do it on your terms.
If I am allowed to prove my point the same way that you are trying to prove yours (using all the runs) I believe the best claim that you would be able to make is that you don’t loose any HP.
Vince
It also seem to me that every time you are asked to substantiate your claims you only do it on your terms.
If I am allowed to prove my point the same way that you are trying to prove yours (using all the runs) I believe the best claim that you would be able to make is that you don’t loose any HP.
Vince
03-22-2004, 02:56 PM
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How am I manipulating data? Raw data are given to you and raw data are given to those people who are there.
Both stock intake and my intake has HP loss due to heat soak run after run and the effect on the heat soak is very consistent run after run. Do you know what heat soak is and do you know how it affects HP? Maybe you can show me a car that has no heat soak effect when you run it from 35-120 MPH 4 times in a row without any cooling off period. Try that on your car on your car on the dyno and post the raw data.
You don't have to believe anything I say. I don't need to prove anything to you.
Chuck Huang
Both stock intake and my intake has HP loss due to heat soak run after run and the effect on the heat soak is very consistent run after run. Do you know what heat soak is and do you know how it affects HP? Maybe you can show me a car that has no heat soak effect when you run it from 35-120 MPH 4 times in a row without any cooling off period. Try that on your car on your car on the dyno and post the raw data.
You don't have to believe anything I say. I don't need to prove anything to you.
Chuck Huang
Originally posted by compaddict
It seems to me that you are in fact manipulating the data to prove your point (and sell your product at the same time).
It also seem to me that every time you are asked to substantiate your claims you only do it on your terms.
If I am allowed to prove my point the same way that you are trying to prove yours (using all the runs) I believe the best claim that you would be able to make is that you don’t loose any HP.
Vince
It seems to me that you are in fact manipulating the data to prove your point (and sell your product at the same time).
It also seem to me that every time you are asked to substantiate your claims you only do it on your terms.
If I am allowed to prove my point the same way that you are trying to prove yours (using all the runs) I believe the best claim that you would be able to make is that you don’t loose any HP.
Vince
03-22-2004, 03:11 PM
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How are you manipulating data?
By only showing us runs selected by yourself.
Funny that when you are asked hard questions and are asked to show the raw data or all the data you always say near the same thing:
"You don't have to believe anything I say. I don't need to prove anything to you.
Chuck Huang"
Funny thing.
Vince
By only showing us runs selected by yourself.
Funny that when you are asked hard questions and are asked to show the raw data or all the data you always say near the same thing:
"You don't have to believe anything I say. I don't need to prove anything to you.
Chuck Huang"
Funny thing.
Vince
03-22-2004, 03:16 PM
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I have all the dyno runs in zip file and can send to you. Just PM me w/ your e-mail address. He's not hiding anything. There were others there that day too to witness firsthand: BrotherVoodoo, RX guy, and Weston.
William
William
03-22-2004, 03:26 PM
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Yeah, yeah. Now the fact that all the other guys who happened to be there, watched the whole dyno session, and have all the raw data are out of the question?? I know they will not misuse the raw data so I don't mind giving those to them. But you on the other hand, is the kind of poeple with wicked intention. Who knows if you are not from a competitor?
I don't even give you the raw data of the best runs of both. My intake shows more power gain when engines are not heat soaked but I choose to give you the raw data from the worst runs because I want to show people the minimum gain and you still have a problem with that?
All the dyno sheets are posted there. Run 1-11. Did I select just a few runs? No.
What are you trying to prove here? I really don't get it.
Do your own testing! Spend the money. Instead of attacking me without basis, why don't you get the testing done and prove me wrong. Talk is cheap.
Chuck Huang
I don't even give you the raw data of the best runs of both. My intake shows more power gain when engines are not heat soaked but I choose to give you the raw data from the worst runs because I want to show people the minimum gain and you still have a problem with that?
All the dyno sheets are posted there. Run 1-11. Did I select just a few runs? No.
What are you trying to prove here? I really don't get it.
Do your own testing! Spend the money. Instead of attacking me without basis, why don't you get the testing done and prove me wrong. Talk is cheap.
Chuck Huang
Originally posted by compaddict
How are you manipulating data?
By only showing us runs selected by yourself.
Funny that when you are asked hard questions and are asked to show the raw data or all the data you always say near the same thing:
"You don't have to believe anything I say. I don't need to prove anything to you.
Chuck Huang"
Funny thing.
Vince
How are you manipulating data?
By only showing us runs selected by yourself.
Funny that when you are asked hard questions and are asked to show the raw data or all the data you always say near the same thing:
"You don't have to believe anything I say. I don't need to prove anything to you.
Chuck Huang"
Funny thing.
Vince
Last edited by Rotary Extreme; 03-22-2004 at 03:46 PM.
03-22-2004, 03:29 PM
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William:
His intention is so obvious. He wants to do anything he can to show there is no improvement on the intake. He will compare the run when the engine is totally heat soaked with the run that's not. You were there and you saw how heat soak plays a big part on the HP curve.
I will give the raw data to anyone but him. Don't send it to him.
Chuck Huang
His intention is so obvious. He wants to do anything he can to show there is no improvement on the intake. He will compare the run when the engine is totally heat soaked with the run that's not. You were there and you saw how heat soak plays a big part on the HP curve.
I will give the raw data to anyone but him. Don't send it to him.
Chuck Huang
Originally posted by blksf8
I have all the dyno runs in zip file and can send to you. Just PM me w/ your e-mail address. He's not hiding anything. There were others there that day too to witness firsthand: BrotherVoodoo, RX guy, and Weston.
William
I have all the dyno runs in zip file and can send to you. Just PM me w/ your e-mail address. He's not hiding anything. There were others there that day too to witness firsthand: BrotherVoodoo, RX guy, and Weston.
William
03-22-2004, 03:43 PM
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For those of you who have purchased the RE intake, you are entitled to the full access to all the raw data. Email me your name, the paypal trasaction ID at rotaryextreme@aol.com and you will get an email with all the raw data. Thank you.
Chuck Huang
Chuck Huang
03-22-2004, 03:45 PM
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Thank you for the support. I am glad 99.9999% of the people on this board can analyze the data in a proper way.
Chuck Huang
Chuck Huang
Originally posted by ranger4277
I believe you Chuck.
I believe you Chuck.
03-22-2004, 03:55 PM
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Compuaddict/Vince -
It's become obvious to me that no matter what Rotary Extreme/Chuck has to say or post, you will find some reason to attack it or him. Your whole argument last time was that you asked for raw data and he did not provide it to you, even though you were not "due" anything. So now he provides raw data, AND independant witnesses, AND pays for 3 different sets of Dyno runs - and it's STILL not enough for you.
It's obvious you will never be satisfied, and I have had it.
Give it a rest. Now. The warnings on this in the past have been in private, and you have listened only briefly. This one is in public to wake you up. Your attacks on Rotary Extreme are excessive, uncalled for, and counterproductive to the forum. They will not be tolerated any longer. Continue, and you will be banned. Find something else to crusade about, I've had it with this.
EDIT: Ok, since you chose to "retaliate" by opening a new thread and directing your attacks at me, you're outta here.
It's become obvious to me that no matter what Rotary Extreme/Chuck has to say or post, you will find some reason to attack it or him. Your whole argument last time was that you asked for raw data and he did not provide it to you, even though you were not "due" anything. So now he provides raw data, AND independant witnesses, AND pays for 3 different sets of Dyno runs - and it's STILL not enough for you.
It's obvious you will never be satisfied, and I have had it.
Give it a rest. Now. The warnings on this in the past have been in private, and you have listened only briefly. This one is in public to wake you up. Your attacks on Rotary Extreme are excessive, uncalled for, and counterproductive to the forum. They will not be tolerated any longer. Continue, and you will be banned. Find something else to crusade about, I've had it with this.
EDIT: Ok, since you chose to "retaliate" by opening a new thread and directing your attacks at me, you're outta here.
Last edited by Omicron; 03-22-2004 at 07:45 PM.
03-22-2004, 09:04 PM
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The part about the 4th gear runs just sank in, of course the runs are taking longer in that gear. Makes perfect sense.
Btw, nice job with all the data from the dynos. Hopefully more vendors will follow your lead on this (I'm not holding my breath :D)
jds
Btw, nice job with all the data from the dynos. Hopefully more vendors will follow your lead on this (I'm not holding my breath :D)
jds
Originally posted by Rotary Extreme
If he has raw data to show me that using his procedure will make the graph look any different, I will try that next time. Doing the dyno run at 4th gear takes 30-40 sec. I have video clip to show that.
http://www.rotaryextreme.com/rx8exhaust-1.MPG
You will need to right click and save target as because the file is too big for buffer to work.
I think we should ask Racing Beat the question if there is really a limp mode since they use engine dyno and there is no wheel to turn to begin with.
Chuck Huang
If he has raw data to show me that using his procedure will make the graph look any different, I will try that next time. Doing the dyno run at 4th gear takes 30-40 sec. I have video clip to show that.
http://www.rotaryextreme.com/rx8exhaust-1.MPG
You will need to right click and save target as because the file is too big for buffer to work.
I think we should ask Racing Beat the question if there is really a limp mode since they use engine dyno and there is no wheel to turn to begin with.
Chuck Huang
03-22-2004, 11:12 PM
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Thank you!!!
Finally the time I wasted on him can be spent on something more productive.
Don't forget he still got a bunch of other aliases. :D
Chuck Huang
Finally the time I wasted on him can be spent on something more productive.
Don't forget he still got a bunch of other aliases. :D
Chuck Huang
Originally posted by Omicron
Compuaddict/Vince -
It's become obvious to me that no matter what Rotary Extreme/Chuck has to say or post, you will find some reason to attack it or him. Your whole argument last time was that you asked for raw data and he did not provide it to you, even though you were not "due" anything. So now he provides raw data, AND independant witnesses, AND pays for 3 different sets of Dyno runs - and it's STILL not enough for you.
It's obvious you will never be satisfied, and I have had it.
Give it a rest. Now. The warnings on this in the past have been in private, and you have listened only briefly. This one is in public to wake you up. Your attacks on Rotary Extreme are excessive, uncalled for, and counterproductive to the forum. They will not be tolerated any longer. Continue, and you will be banned. Find something else to crusade about, I've had it with this.
EDIT: Ok, since you chose to "retaliate" by opening a new thread and directing your attacks at me, you're outta here.
Compuaddict/Vince -
It's become obvious to me that no matter what Rotary Extreme/Chuck has to say or post, you will find some reason to attack it or him. Your whole argument last time was that you asked for raw data and he did not provide it to you, even though you were not "due" anything. So now he provides raw data, AND independant witnesses, AND pays for 3 different sets of Dyno runs - and it's STILL not enough for you.
It's obvious you will never be satisfied, and I have had it.
Give it a rest. Now. The warnings on this in the past have been in private, and you have listened only briefly. This one is in public to wake you up. Your attacks on Rotary Extreme are excessive, uncalled for, and counterproductive to the forum. They will not be tolerated any longer. Continue, and you will be banned. Find something else to crusade about, I've had it with this.
EDIT: Ok, since you chose to "retaliate" by opening a new thread and directing your attacks at me, you're outta here.
03-22-2004, 11:15 PM
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Thank you for the support.
Chuck Huang
Chuck Huang
Originally posted by bureau13
The part about the 4th gear runs just sank in, of course the runs are taking longer in that gear. Makes perfect sense.
Btw, nice job with all the data from the dynos. Hopefully more vendors will follow your lead on this (I'm not holding my breath :D)
jds
The part about the 4th gear runs just sank in, of course the runs are taking longer in that gear. Makes perfect sense.
Btw, nice job with all the data from the dynos. Hopefully more vendors will follow your lead on this (I'm not holding my breath :D)
jds