JimW

If this is the case, they are not providing for and accurate way for the consumer to measure or test their product! I know I'm happy with my car but to those unfortunate few that might have a REAL problem, what explanation is going to be givin to someone who dynos at 130 whp. Hoepfully not the chasis method that is to variable for accuracy. Dynos have been used successfuly in determining lemon law cases, but those measurements were deemed to be accurate. Hey, anything to avoid lawsuits is fine with me. This might help Mazda to dispell the lower than advertised H.P. that people are recording on dynos, if in fact there is and economical and accurate way for the consumer to measure H.P. that was provided by Mazda. Are you happy with you car Gordon? or do you have and H.P. issue with it as well, just curious.

r0tor

iTrader: (1)

umm yes they are providing a way, its called going to a track and seeing if you can get the advertised acceleration numbers - and its been proven you can if your a good driver.

r0tor

iTrader: (1)

Using your same point, if an RSX with 200 hp and weighing 2750lbs can run a best of 14.7, how much more power do you think it takes for the 8 which weighs 300lbs more to run a few tenths faster then that?

It takes more then 10-15 hp... you'd have a hard time getting a 215hp RSx to run a 14.5 sec run, and even a harder time getting it to run that with 300 more lbs.

kcruboy

pr0ber-

First of all....

No not many drivers at all are running mid 14's in stock 8's. In fact very , very few are and they are much more than "good" drivers. They must run under near perfect conditions with 7k clutch drops and be willing to literally tear the car apart to acheive these times (look up tranny issues). The times posted in this forum speak for themselves.

Secondly....

Yes the 8 weighs a lil over 200 (not 300) pounds more than an RSX-S. Now here is what your missing: the 8 is RWD, the RSX is FWD ... since you dont appear to know much about track racing I'll break it down for you very simply.... there is a BIG difference at the track between a rwd and a fwd. The difference in off the line traction and wheel hop is enormous.

If it were ever made, an extremely well-driven stock, RWD RSX-S with the exact same 200 hp engine could run very low 14's, likely somewhere in the neighborhood of 14.3. As I already stated, there are stock RSX-s's right now running 14.7's (obviously well driven ones). And these are fwd!

Now 38 hp and 200 pounds more than that should produce a faster car ( do the math using lb.s / hp ). A car that even decent drivers should be able to run mid 14's in, and great drivers should be able to run 14.0 in.

Rotarian_SC

I think that a comparison with "average" drivers is not valid for hp based on 1/4mi and trap speed. The hp figure should be based on what the best drivers can do. Just because one car is harder to launch doesn't mean that it has less hp.

JimW

How can this be accurate if you have a good driver with perfect conditions and the times are way off. Then something must be limiting H.P. but how much? What can accurately record and measure in that case?

PhineasFellOff

I think some of the people here are misunderstanding things and/or are not considering the Dinan article in the correct way.

(1) Even if you did an engine dyno, it still may not get the rated HP of 238 because Mazda may have used an engine dyno in a special wind (or whatever you call it) room.

(2) We already know what Canzoomer got on the regular dyno. Even if Canzoomer had an engine dyno, it may not make much difference for the reason stated in #1 above. It appears to me that, based on the Dinan article, there may in fact be DIFFERENT KINDS of "limp" modes/factors. I'd like to hear Canzoomer's views on these other possible "limp" factors, such as the extreme difficulty of reproducing "wind" in a realistic manner (like mentioned in the Dinan article).

(3) Why in the world would Racing Beat have an engine dyno but not be able to give you the results BUT was able to give you rear-wheel HP from a regular dyno? Something is fishy there. Collusion?

r0tor

iTrader: (1)

a) Most people who have posted times here are from the first time they ever went to the track with this car. A lot of the people have never even been to a dragstrip before. You can't go and judge a cars performance from times given by average drivers. When people figure out how to launch the car, the times of average drivers will fall.

Its a fact all the major magazines and all the serious drag racing drivers here have gotten times in the 14's. Deal with it, the car performs as it was advertised.

b) Most cars on this board are over 3,000 lbs and are 300lbs heavier then an RSX

c) The RX8's IRS is not setup for drag racing and does not get great launches and probably has no advantage over a FWD car. A FWD car also typically has about 5% less drivetrain loss as well. The RWD is almost a moot point.


The general rule of thumb is for every 100 lbs you shave off you loose a tenth in the .25mile. So go find out how much power it takes to shave .6-.8 secs from an RSX's timeslip and get back to me.... I can save you the trouble and tell you you need 230-240hp but by all means don't take my word for it.

hasg

I agreed completely with you untill you said that.
Put hondata and a CAI on an rsx and it WILL run low 14s, high 13s with a decent driver.

And with those two modse they put around 190to the wheels. Which is less than 240chp.

s13lover

I totaly do not see the point in this conversation. Why do people care so much about 3 little numbers on a piece of paper that have no affect on the car. Big deal if the car has 200 hp instead of a stated 238 hp. It's still just as fast! Mazda could claim the '05 as having 125 hp and I wouldn't care because that won't change anything about how the car really performs.

As for the masses not being able to reproduce magazine's test times you must remember that those test drivers are highly seasoned professionals that have the job of producing the best numbers possilbe. They don't care if 7500rpm clutch drops will ruin a clutch, as long as it works for the test. Also, most magazines dotor their results to match what the car would do under ideal conditions (temp, humidity, elevation).

Japan8

kcruboy... look at the quote... Rotarian_SC said it best. 238hp based upon idea condition launches by professional drivers is 100% valid. The hp, 1/4, 0-60, etc. times are and should be based upon what the ultimate POTENTIAL of the car is... not what the average joe can do.

Have you ever read a car magazine? These guys talk about how the test cars they get are falling apart sometimes. Why? Because it isn't just the RX-8... it's all cars. The test drivers beat the hell out of the cars to get the very best numbers possible out of it. If a trans breaks, so what... it's a test car and manufactureres are happy to deal with the need to fix the car, because a good review will help them to sell more cars.

kcruboy

pr0ber-

Please stop making yourself seem ignorant by saying that the advantage of an 8's rwd vs. fwd is a moot point. Look at all the fastest drag cars in professional racing....do you not notice anything that they all have? Have you noticed the one thing that is keeping several Honda's from being capable of running extremely fast times without 100's of thousands of dollars in development? And no its not just because of the hp created from a v8 vs. a 4 cylinder.......

Also, why don't YOU go to the track with sum 8 buddies and see how many of you can even run below a 14.8 ?? According to you the car is VERY capable fo running 14.5's.......

hasg-

Great Point.... I myself (obviously I am not a professional driver) have run a 14.3 second 1/4 mile with just Hondata ecu upgrade and aem cold air intake. Judging from other's dynos, this should makes my whp somewhere in the neighborhood of 185 - 190. And once again.... this is with fwd....which DOES make a difference at the track.

japan8-

I've read several car magazines for years and have seen very very few complaints about test cars falling apart during or after test runs. However, I have seen more than one magazine comment how difficult it was to make the 8 run a decent 1/4 mile (esp. b/c you need a 7k+ clutch drop). Of the cars that I've kept up with, NONE have had significant problems after running 1/4 mile track times that they were SUPPOSED to be able to run in the first place. You shouldn't have problems with stuff falling apart trying to run times that the car was manuf. and designed to do. I can understand this ONLY if you add significant power upgrades and / or track the car every month.

r0tor

iTrader: (1)

do a search for the term "wheel hop" and find out how great the RX8 with RWD launches.... not many IRS cars launch well, its a reason the Camaro/Mustang (except the Cobra) stayed a solid rear axle

Also, what time did you run the first time you ever took your car to the track??

Rotarian_SC

Maybe he didn't read the quote. I will say it again, it doesn't matter how hard it is to run the times, what matters is what the times that the best drivers get. That may make it perform worse on average at the drag strip, but Ito pulled a 14.2 on a stock RX8. Hard to do I admit, but he proved the car can perform that well, it just takes a great driver.

Ok, now lets say your 190whp RSX does a 14.3. In Weight to HP ratios that means that it is 2750/190, which equals 14.47. For an RX8 to put down a close power to weight ratio (where x is whp), 3000/x=14.47->x=3000/14.47->x=207. Assuming 20% drivetrain loss, which should be around the maximum loss for rwd and the carbon fiber driveshaft, then the engine is making 259 hp, which is 21hp more than what Mazda stated. Plus the RX8 Ito ran posted a time .1 faster than your time. I think it would be more than fair to say that the RX8 ran the 1/4mi .1 slower and deduct 21hp to make up for your claimed rwd advantage over the RSX, giving the RX8 at least 238 hp at the engine.

Japan8

It doesn't seem like he read the quote. Has he ever had a research methods class? If so, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Just like Rotarian_SC said... let's say the average 8 driver was a crappy inexperience 16 year old (excuse me all 16 year olds). These kids are lucky if they can pull 15 in the 1/4... hell they pull 15's in a Mustang GT. Does this mean the 8 is only capable of pulling 15's... or say the Mustang? Of course not. Just because you suck and/or the car is difficult to drive doesn't invalidate the data. Does this mean the manufacturer lied? Nope. It just means you're not a professional driver.


Here's two more good examples... take a 79-93 Mustang GT and a 993 Porsche. Let's see you pull the slalom times in the magazines. Let's see what kind of lap times you or the average driver can pull. I'll bet none of you can achieve it. Why? Those two cars are notorious for having upredicatable rear-ends when driven at the limit. Does this mean that the magazine times are invalid? Nope.

Gord96BRG

In some cases, you need to read between the lines, or find indirect references. Fact is - the magazines do NOT write directly about these failures, because then the car companies will NOT give them test vehicles in the future. It happens more than you think, but less often now than in the past - especially in European cars that are designed for handling and high-speed performance, and not for the peculiar American obsession with standing start acceleration numbers. Broken axle shafts, differentials, gearboxes, clutches have all happened when testing Porsches, Lamborghinis, Ferraris, Lotuses, etc. The magazine may write "problems at the drag strip with our original test car prevented us from recording a 0-60 time, but with another test car we got a 0-60 of 4.3 seconds". They don't say "the clutch drop at 6000 rpm snapped the axle in two"!

Regards,
Gordon

Rotarian_SC

I seem to remember a quite public event where Lambo got really pissed off at C&D cause they broke a car while testing it, and Lambo then told C&D that they wouldn't give them any more test cars

Lawerence

Your kidding right?
you cant take the power weight for the rsx and use it in the rx8. That makes absolutely no sense.

Since dynos vary greatly lets assume that both cars do have thier claimed hp.

RX8= 3000/238= 12.6:1
RSX= 2750/200= 13.7:1

And if you looks at 1/4 mile times (I will use MAGs since some of you dont like internet slips).

rx8= 14.5 @ 96 (per Car and Driver
rsx= 14.8 @ 95 (per Car and Driver

The numbers are so close that in a straight lin it is a drivers race.
on a track the 8 has a hudge edge.

Either way rx8>>rxs IMO

Rotarian_SC

Yes I was joking, I wanted to see how ridiculous the numbers would turn out. I know the 8 doesn't have around that much hp stock.

The RSX we are talking about here has a cold air intake and hondata, so you can't assume it has the stock C&D numbers. I remember seeing a timeslip from Ito on the racing section of the forum, but I am too lazy to go and find it.

kcruboy

Rotarian....

Your response using power to weight ratios was very nice. I came to this point to and then started to question why I have heard stories of 8's being disappointing on the streets. Your answer omitted 2 things, yet it does help me come closer to accepting the 238 hp figure.

The 2 things I came to realize are that :

1. I am not a professional driver, so you can't compare my time in an rsx to a professionally driven 8. With a very good driver, I believe my car could have pulled in closer to a 14.0.

2. Also, for the 3rd time, rwd v. fwd. Yes, I know 8's have wheelhop problems, but fwd have this problem too as well as mad amounts of wheelspin.

Regardless, your point is well taken and I appreciate it.

Also, I am in NO way trying to compare my rsx to an 8 and say it's a better / comparable car. I'm only using it for reference. The only place an rsx can compete with an 8 in any way is in straight line acceleration, and I admit that stock v. stock an 8 is faster.

Also to address track questions: I ran a 15.0 the first time at the track with my rsx when I only had aem cai. With Hondata and some new tires to replace my balding ones, I ran a 14.3. I would not assume that most people who run low 15's (which seems to be very common) are newbies at the track.....

Lawerence

Yea guys RSXs do have bad wheel hop too.
My friend has a typeS with hondata/cold air intake/hondata intake manifols gaskets and ES motor mounts (to eliminate wheel hop).
It pulls pretty hard

olddragger

iTrader: (3)

guys,guys relax man! good discussion with a lot of vadlid points! But-- the 8 is not a 1/4 mile car! I know I USED to "drag" a lot. It will never be a 1/4 mile car! It wasn't designed to be a 1/4 mile car!
I/4 mile times depend on a hell of a lot more than the engine, and the chassis etc of the 8 are far from ideal for this. Now if you are discussing just horsepower/dyno results, well you can talk to the cows come home about that! 238 horsepoer? Probaly not, but 220 vs 238,who cares!
I think some of the problem some people have with the performance of the rotary engine is in the "street" factor. To get the "feel" of the rotary engine you have to drive it like a dirt bike. Thats hard to do on the street and maintain a dirvers license. Below 5k this engine sucks. Without major mods it always will. Why? Because the engine is bascially a 2 cycle design and hence it best when it is screaming. So, be happy with a great car and Peace out!