EricMeyer

Since we don't run Koni Challenge anymore, I'd thought I'd share what was under the hood of both of our cars. For these particular pulls:

-Fresh Daryl Drummond rebuild. 100% legit/stock/no trickery
-Bosch 4.3 Engine Mangement running .92 Lambda
-11 Plugs
-Custom Header by Pete w/1 7/8" long primarys, extry, extry long collector to 4", very low restriction dual mufflers after "Y" split behind diff.
-Premium gas
-Lots and lots and lots of dyno time. Lots. So much that the dyno operator gave me a key to his shop. True.
-ACT flywheel w/stock clutch
-Air pump removal and oil injection delete
-Hundreds of intake tests
-Star Mazda throttle body (same size as stock and needed to use an alternate TPSensor)
-I have dyno'd probably 15 different engine BUILDS and each one of those typically both before we run them at the track (break-in), after we return from an event (to see what she is making') and then after the next event (repeat). I would suggest to you that each of the 15 motors I've owned/had rebuilt/bought new from MazdaSpeed (3), have been dyno'd on average of 2 to 3 times---each one with more hours on it than the previous dyno trip measurements.
-I'll suggest to you that there is very little variation in power and/or power curve(s). This based on ceramic apex or steel, one builder vs. another, rebuild vs. new, swapping out upper and lower intakes and plugs, new housings vs. used, new rotors vs. used, new irons vs. used. Variations in power could be written up as dyno variations and within 1-2% on the dyno we tested on. I have come to believe based on talking with guys who have been around the block much longer than own and have owned both chassis and engine dynos that this 1-2% variation we see is a very low variation and greeted by these smart guys as a strong testament to our consistent and repetitive dyno process (talked about below). Any variations in these new builds (and measurements after racing) can be explained as too small to pinpoint and could be written off as the small variance (or large in some cases as seen on this forum) of the same exact chassis dyno we test on here in Indianpolis (Cozzolino Motorsports).
-Biggest power gains came from continous header development (not just one kids) and testing, testing, testing them. I think I've been through 11 different header/exhaust configs. In many cases we would individually tune the new exhaust to the motor to maximize power. Same for intake configs.
-For those of you jackf__ks that think there is no power in a header----below me. I say this because most of you that say this have no idea what your friggin' talking about. There is power there. It may not be as much as your willing to invest in but there are power gains in headers period. If you want to argue this then meet me on the playground at lunch time and bring friends and an icepack. I've been on these forums and lurk in the background to see HOW people are testing and I've yet to see anyone talk about a detailed dyno procedure. This suggests to me that the majority of the "I'm going to the dyno this weekend and paying $75 to see what my pretty waxed car with the 20" blah, blah is going to pull and I think my new coat of RainX is goning to make 20 horse. This isn't a slam on those of of you that do it right but rather a crushing blow to those of you that DON'T know and argue that you do.
-After the first few months of pulls (back in late 2007 when we had the white car -- RIP) we began formalizing a dyno procedure that we would end up using every single time we would use the dyno/capture data. This included:
---A good once over of the motor at the shop before we put her on the trailer to go to the dyno (belts, hoses, plug wires, oil level, water level, exhaust leaks, air filter condition, trans and diff fluid level, condition of plugs and coil packs documented).
---Top her off with premium pump gas and 1 oz / gall premix (Redline 2 stroke)
---Checking tire pressures before pulls---40 psi (the same as we would run on track)
---Strap down car, check straps, recheck straps, doublecheck/recheck straps after several pulls to put demand upon them).
---Testing methodology communicated to everyone (what do we want to accomplish today)
---Plug in laptop and monitor engine parameters during the warmup (usually about 20 minutes or so). This includes Oil P, water and oil temps, trans temp, diff temp, A/F, Trim correction level, EGT temps, IAT. We look for abnormalities and might find one every once and a while that we fix before moving on.
---We are ready when the engine has been up or above about 200F oil and the diff temp (VERY IMPORTANT) is 130F+ WE HAVE FOUND THAT THE DIFF TEMP IS THE SINGLE LARGEST VARIATION IN RECORDING POWER. Read that one again rotary fans--the variation in power due to cold vs. hot diff temps is the single biggest difference in recorded hp and trq. (for us). Pulls with a heated up motor and low intake air temps and a COLD diff are usually about 5 peak hp lower than when heated.
---4th gear pulls (5th gear reveals higher power). Don't ask we why we pulled in 4th gear. We started it this way and continued it to have an apples vs. apples comparison data.
---We would try to make all pulls with IAT below 100. Oddly enough we found about zero variation in a very cold intake vs. a warm one (about 100). When the IAT was above 120 or so we did see lower numbers and/or numbers that weren't as high as numbers performed on the same day but with lower IAT.
--Fire extinguishers manned (except for that one time when the car caught on fire and burnt to the ground---yes this is true). Don't ask.
--Strong monitoring of oil temps (which grew much faster than water temps for us). Note: I found 1 or 2 more hp when the oil ran 210. We race it at a target 190F and run the water as low as we can----normally 185 F with our C&R custom radiator (which I've built and tested 4 different custom radiator configs).

So we can usually be in and out in about an hour with a long warmup, 3 or 4 sets of pulls of 3 and printing out the dyno sheet/sheets to store in our dyno log book

For the attached dyno sheet you will see this:
-A custom airbox allowing for large amounts of air TO the filter and then a short 45 degree or so angle (12" in length +/- measured on the outside longer side) and our old tried and true MazdaSpeed Intake (the polished Alum one) with a 90 degree turned down elbow and paper air filter (not a metal K&N or equivalent).

A warning in advance, as always, I really try hard to share the knowledge that I've learned over my short, detailed and crazy RX8 experience. It is my wish that people who read this think it through before posing any questions. In fact, my preference would be (and this will sound like a shocker) that people do some forum surfing before posing what is usually seen as a dumb question. My hat is off to those of you who pose links to similar topics that have been discussed on this forum before. To me, this shows that you do your homework and research---I tip my Meyer Motorsports cap to you. Thanks for your understanding and may I suggest re-reading this long email before asking any questions---chances are you may of missed it and/or you could figure it out for yourself---which would indicate you are learning and becoming a better steward of this wonderful forum.

Happy Rotoring

9krpmrx8

iTrader: (46)

Thanks! Awesome input. Just thought I'd clean it up a bit.

Since we don't run Koni Challenge anymore, I'd thought I'd share what was under the hood of both of our cars. For these particular pulls:

-Fresh Daryl Drummond rebuild. 100% legit/stock/no trickery
-Bosch 4.3 Engine Mangement running .92 Lambda
-11 Plugs
-Custom Header by Pete w/1 7/8" long primarys, extry, extry long collector to 4", very low restriction dual mufflers after "Y" split behind diff.
-Premium gas
-Lots and lots and lots of dyno time. Lots. So much that the dyno operator gave me a key to his shop. True.
-ACT flywheel w/stock clutch
-Air pump removal and oil injection delete
-Hundreds of intake tests
-Star Mazda throttle body (same size as stock and needed to use an alternate TPSensor)


I have dyno'd probably 15 different engine BUILDS. And each one of those both before we run them at the track (break-in), after we return from an event (to see what she is making') and then after the next event (repeat).

Each of the 15 motors I've owned/had rebuilt/bought new from MazdaSpeed (3), have been dyno'd an average of 2 to 3 times. Each one with more hours on it than the previous dyno.

I'll suggest to you that there is very little variation in power and/or power curve(s). This is based on ceramic apex or steel, one builder vs. another, rebuild vs. new, swapping out upper and lower intakes and plugs, new housings vs. used, new rotors vs. used, new irons vs. used. Variations in power could be written up as dyno variations and within 1-2% on the dyno we tested on.

I have come to believe after talking with guys who have been around the block much longer that have owned both chassis and engine dynos, that this 1-2% variation we see is a very low variation and greeted by these smart guys as a strong testament to our consistent and repetitive dyno process (talked about below). Any variations in these new builds (and measurements after racing) can be explained as too small to pinpoint and could be written off as the small variance (or large in some cases as seen on this forum) of the same exact chassis dyno we test on here in Indianpolis (Cozzolino Motorsports).

Biggest power gains came from continuous header development (not just one kids) and testing, testing, and testing. I think I've been through 11 different header/exhaust configurations. In many cases we would individually tune the new exhaust to the motor to maximize power. Same for intake configurations.

For those of you ******** that think there is no power in a header, below me. I say this because most of you that say this, have no idea what your friggin' talking about. There is power there. It may not be as much as your willing to invest in but there are power gains in headers period. If you want to argue this then meet me on the playground at lunch time and bring friends and an icepack. I've been on these forums and lurk in the background to see HOW people are testing and I've yet to see anyone talk about a detailed dyno procedure. This suggests to me that the majority of the "I'm going to the dyno this weekend and paying $75 to see what my pretty waxed car with the 20" blah, blah is going to pull and I think my new coat of RainX is goning to make 20 horse. This isn't a slam on those of of you that do it right but rather a crushing blow to those of you that DON'T know and argue that you do.

After the first few months of pulls (back in late 2007 when we had the white car -- RIP) we began formalizing a dyno procedure that we would end up using every single time we would use the dyno/capture data.

This included:
A good once over of the motor at the shop before we put her on the trailer to go to the dyno (belts, hoses, plug wires, oil level, water level, exhaust leaks, air filter condition, trans and diff fluid level, condition of plugs and coil packs documented).

Top her off with premium pump gas and 1 oz / gall premix (Redline 2 stroke)

Checking tire pressures before pulls---40 psi (the same as we would run on track)

Strap down car, check straps, recheck straps, doublecheck/recheck straps after several pulls to put demand upon them).

Testing methodology communicated to everyone (what do we want to accomplish today)

Plug in laptop and monitor engine parameters during the warmup (usually about 20 minutes or so). This includes Oil P, water and oil temps, trans temp, diff temp, A/F, Trim correction level, EGT temps, IAT. We look for abnormalities and might find one every once and a while that we fix before moving on.

We are ready when the engine has been up or above about 200F oil and the diff temp (VERY IMPORTANT) is 130F+ WE HAVE FOUND THAT THE DIFF TEMP IS THE SINGLE LARGEST VARIATION IN RECORDING POWER. Read that once again rotary fans. The variation in power due to cold vs. hot diff temps is the single biggest difference in recorded hp and torque (for us). Pulls with a heated up motor and low intake air temps and a COLD diff are usually about 5 peak hp lower than when heated.

4th gear pulls (5th gear reveals higher power). Don't ask we why we pulled in 4th gear. We started it this way and continued it to have an apples vs. apples comparison data.

We would try to make all pulls with IAT below 100. Oddly enough we found about zero variation in a very cold intake vs. a warm one (about 100). When the IAT was above 120 or so we did see lower numbers and/or numbers that weren't as high as numbers performed on the same day but with lower IAT.

Fire extinguishers manned (except for that one time when the car caught on fire and burnt to the ground---yes this is true). Don't ask.

Strong monitoring of oil temps (which grew much faster than water temps for us). Note: I found 1 or 2 more hp when the oil ran 210. We race it at a target 190F and run the water as low as we can----normally 185 F with our C&R custom radiator (which I've built and tested 4 different custom radiator configs).

So we can usually be in and out in about an hour with a long warm up, 3 or 4 sets of pulls of 3 and printing out the dyno sheet/sheets to store in our dyno log book

For the attached dyno sheet you will see this:

A custom airbox allowing for large amounts of air TO the filter and then a short 45 degree or so angle (12" in length +/- measured on the outside longer side) and our old tried and true MazdaSpeed Intake (the polished Alum one) with a 90 degree turned down elbow and paper air filter (not a metal K&N or equivalent).

A warning in advance, as always, I really try hard to share the knowledge that I've learned over my short, detailed and crazy RX8 experience. It is my wish that people who read this think it through before posing any questions. In fact, my preference would be (and this will sound like a shocker) that people do some forum surfing before posing what is usually seen as a dumb question. My hat is off to those of you who pose links to similar topics that have been discussed on this forum before. To me, this shows that you do your homework and research, I tip my Meyer Motorsports cap to you. Thanks for your understanding and may I suggest re-reading this long email before asking any questions because chances are you may of missed it and/or you could figure it out for yourself. Which would indicate you are learning and becoming a better steward of this wonderful forum.

9krpmrx8

iTrader: (46)

Do you have any performance numbers and the weight of this car? Also, is the drivetrain stock?

kennyfrc1

iTrader: (6)

Eric,

I have around 50 dyno pulls on my car.

Setup is as follows:

Exhaust: RB Catback. RP Supercat, Stock Manifold

Intake: Racing Beat Revi with Duct, MAF tube insulated from Heat

Drivetrain: ACT Prolite with Stock Clutch. 17.6 lb wheels

ECU: Stock with Racing Beat "Street" Tune, Knock Sensor Unbolted

Ignition: Okada Coils with Magnecor wires


I have wondered the following and hopefully you can shed some light.

1). Would removing the bottleneck between the catback and midpipe offer and improvement and if so how much?

2). No one on this forum has dyno tested the RB Header so what are your thoughts on it for a street/track (DE) car?

3). Would the Mazdaspeed intake make more power than the Racing Beat?

4). What weight oil did you dyno with?


Thanks for your help,

My chart is attached for your review

alz0rz

iTrader: (41)

Amen.

PhillipM

About time someone else agreed with me that's actually tested some, all I ever get is grief over my headers that 'can't possibly do anything'...

EricMeyer

Performance numbers?

Weight is 2725 dry with about 5 gallons

Stock RX8 trans (not 2009), 5.12 ring and pin rem'd

EricMeyer

My notes below in BOLD

rx8thunder

Eric, awesome post. Can I purchase the best of your 11 header designs or do you know who can make a replica of it, assuming it mates with catless midpipe? Thx

EricMeyer

there is no power gain near 9,000 rpm so stay away from there. The speedsource guys set their hard limiter at 8,700. They do this for a reason. We set our soft at 8,500 and hard at 8,700. Why???

Why???

Because there is no power up there and the ends of the rotor tips can (can) start to contact the irons.

It is faster to shift on or around 8,700, watch the rpm drop, keep it floored and repeat process than to run it to 9,200 and do the same. Figure out where the power is and operate your engine in said range.

r0tor

iTrader: (1)

What did the ignition timing look like?

9krpmrx8

iTrader: (46)

I hope you will forgive my ignorance because I'm not sure race teams do this but by performance numbers I mean 0-100 times, etc. I just wanna see how much this increase in WHP effects the numbers vs. a stock car.

Jedi54

iTrader: (7)

great post Eric, thanks for sharing!

rotary.enthusiast

It can be advantageous to shift at a higher RPM on the 1 to 2 shift because of the large drop between the two gears. Shifting at 8,700 in 1st puts you at ~5250 RPM in 2nd, which isn't the most favorable RPM to be at. On the track you're only going to see this shift once, so it doesn't really matter all that much, but for those that are trying to do the whole drag racing thing it is something to keep in mind.

J8635621

iTrader: (10)

I love when Eric Meyer posts stuff on here.

dillsrotary

5250 rpm in 2nd with a stock rear end remember, not a 5.12 ratio.

Mazmart

iTrader: (12)

Eric's attention to detail is the main thing that people should take away from this thread. If you REALLY want to play big, you need to pay big and that includes paying attention.

Paul.

TeamRX8

iTrader: (25)

Not bad for a Dynojet

I have no doubt a different exhaust manifold can make more power, I simply questioned and then proved that it doesn't have to be a complicated traditional header type design ... if that makes me a jackf_ck then so be it

https://www.rx8club.com/showpost.php...&postcount=414


.

Brettus

iTrader: (2)

I think Erics post actually reinforces your earlier claims .

Red Devil

Eric, you mentioned in another thread once that you were going to start getting your rotating assemblies futher balanced...did you find any good result in this? And if you don't mind, what ISO standard did you balance to, and did you continue to balance like Mazda at the flywheel/counterweights, or at the rotors instead?

Thanks, great information as always.

shaunv74

Hey Eric. Great information as always with your typical attention to detail and using the scientific method.

I am most impressed with the fact that you maintained a flat torque curve up to 8Krpm and a nice steady power climb.

I have two questions:

1)On the rear diff. did you see differences in warm up power loss with different differential fluid? EG: was the difference due to the fluid properties changing when warming up depending on the fluid or more due to the growth and tolerance changes of the gears themselves?

2)You mention there are gains to be had with a properly designed header and collector. Am I reading it right that your header tube LENGTHs are 1 7/8" long (very short similar to OEM manifold style) and when you say VERY LONG collector are you saying just a continuous pipe before you get to the cat or resonator? I'm don't know what is considered the termination of the collector vs. mid-pipe. I am thinking if you are using a standard L to D ratio for fully developed flow of 8:1 and a 4" diameter pipe, you'd want ~32"?

Let me know if I'm interpreting your information correctly.

Thanks again!

Brettus

iTrader: (2)

/\ perhaps Eric could post a picture of his header ....

TeamRX8

iTrader: (25)

I took it to mean the header was 1-7/8" diameter primary tubes of long length, so I suppose a clarification is needed

I8U

iTrader: (1)

I know Eric has dumped a ton of money into his program and I understand that is what had to be done to be competitive...the 8 needs that kind of attention to be competitive in these classes, that's why most of the ST 8 teams bowed out. The Bosch conversion alone was what, almost $50k...and then add the rest of the development of the car, you're looking at atleast a $150K+ car. I applaud Eric for continuing race development on the 8, hopefully we will be able to use some of his applications to help further the average owners pursuit of speed.

Zelse

iTrader: (12)

I'm just curious also if his header is the standard 3 runner, or a 4 runner. I had this question many times and noticed only a select few tuner companies in Japan running a 4 runner header. Now that about a year or so has passed since then... That company is now running this on their rx8 as a proto type for this years RE wars.


Just wanted your thoughts on that Eric. Thanks for the great post and information.