Matt RX8

Track pads for rear?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For my RX-8 I was about to place an order for front brake pads that would be track only pads. I decided to go with the Carbotech Panther XP8.

The guy at Carbotech was also trying to sell me some rear track pads (also Panther XP8). He said that it would help have better braking and if I happened to not be braking in a straightline for some reason. He also said it would also prevent putting too much load on the front brakes that would keep them from glazing over.

Anyway, are rear track pads worth it? Or is it overkill? I only have 4 track days (experience) so far and the OEMs haven't given me any problems although they do wear in about 4 days.

Perhaps front pads would be overkill too...

Here is the cost breakdown:

OEM Pads
F: 70
R: 44

70+44=$114


Panther XP8s
F: 158
R: 128

158+128=$286


So obviously, the track pads are much more but they might last longer than the OEMs. I get about 4 days from the OEM pads.

I know one of the guys on this forum (DPE) recomended XP8s with OEM or Bobcats in the rear.

Anybody using track pads in the rears?


Thoughts???

RotaryZZ

I use Mazda Speed pads for the front only during track events. The rear won't help much anyway. Plus its a pain to change the back too!

Dark8

EBC Redstuff pads: 89F+83R=$172

http://www.perfectbrakes.com/products.asp?cat=2227&pg=1

TheArchitect

Machan, really you'll be fine with just going with front XP8s and using the OEM rear pads until you wear them out. I ran OEM pads several times last year (both front and rear) to get a feel for the car from the factory. Since then, on track I used Carbotech race pads up front and OEM pads at the rear until they wore out (somewhere around a half-dozen track events). I logged a fair number of track miles in the RX-8 with race pads up front and OEM pads at the rear and never experienced a problem. No glazing, no fade, no huge imbalance in braking bias. Yes, the fronts do more of the work and will overwhelm the front tires a bit sooner, but it doesn't degrade the car's performance or fun factor in the HPDE scenario, and in a non-racing venue most people are willing to live with this slight change in bias to ensure fade-free braking for their driving events. I know I certainly am, anyway.

Having experience with the Bobcats, I believe they make a great replacement for the OEM pads, but if you're looking for maximum high-performance driving event bang for the buck while retaining good street drivability without spending too much all at once, just swapping the fronts to something like the XP8 before the event and having good rear pads will treat you just fine in the RX-8. Once you wear out the OEM pads, then you can think about whether you want to replace them with something like Bobcats for year-round street use and rear pad track use, or stick with OEM pads. The OEM pads really are pretty good, but there are better pads out there for daily use. It's just a matter of whether that's important to you.

And, true, running XP8s front and rear would give you maximum performance on track, but for many (including me) that can also be overkill for non-racing events where you just want to go out and maximize your fun without also maximizing the hassle.

Matt RX8

Thanks, some great info in there.

Any idea how long the XP-8s in front will last. I can get at least 4 days out of my OEMs and they have not given me any issues yet so I might hold off on the front pads until I start seeing some fade or performance degredation.

TheArchitect

Well, it's hard to say how long the XP-8s will last. That depends largely on your driving style and the track(s) you're driving on, but expect to get a pretty fair number of track miles out of the pads. I just swapped my current set of fronts out recently, and after 3 short track days (around 3 sessions each, with sessions running about 10-12 minutes), one long track day (5 sessions, ~15 minutes each), a hard 3-day weekend driving in the mountains worth probably 1-2 good track events, and a fair number of street miles, the pads still appear to have more than half their life remaining (I'd guess closer to 2/3, but didn't have a new set handy to view side-by-side so I can't say for sure).

If you haven't been to our site yet, you might like to check out the Technical Articles section where we discuss brakes and brake upgrades. You might find some additional info in there that could help your selection process. And, of course, give us a call if we can be of help in the decision process.

Matt RX8

So I've been running the last few events with either Hawk HP+ or Carbotech XP8s up front and OEM pads in the rear. Still on the OEM rotors.

I've been wearing through the OEM rear pads very quickly. When I first started tracking my car last year, they would last 3 days (about 80-90 minutes of track time each day). Then they started lasting only 2 days.

Well last Friday, I went through a set of rears in 1 day on the track at a local track that is known for being tough on brakes.

Anyone else wearing through the rear pads so quickly?

I also started experiencing some fade in the front, basically still had a firm pedal but just couldn't bring the speed down quickly enough. I suppose it's time to upgrade the fronts to a track only pad then?

I thinking of trying to add some ducts like in this DIY. Anyone try it?
https://www.rx8club.com/showthread.p...ght=brake+duct

Anyone have some recomendations for some track only pads that can be purchased for close to the price of the OEMs?

olddragger

iTrader: (3)

DPE is the man on this--I have been following their advice ever since I 1st contacted them and I have not been disappointed. The xp 8's up front are great track pads(dont put the spacers in), they transition well, very smooth increasing grip--not that oh my god intial bite you get with the hawks(although it is a very strong bite! glue your false teeth in) but it is easier to hard trail brake with the xp's than the hawks(for me) i do run the bobcats on the rear. Like said dont have to mess with those.every day pad that stands up to the track well. I have approx 10 track days (3-4 20 min sessions approx 125miles per day) on xp's and they still look 70-80% I only run them on the track--cant get them up to temp on daily driving so they will(any race pad will) eat the rotor. Same on the bobcats approx 10 track days and about 70 % left plus about 10,000 street miles. I run Road Atlanta--hard braking track from 130-down to 60 on turn 9, from 125 down to 90 on turn 1, and 100-65 or so on turn 60, not a lot of cooling time. Oh yea a good set of brake ducts will REALLY help the fronts. I also run Roebling in savanah and it is much easier on the brakes. Braking is one of the outstanding features of this car---USE IT! I made up 6 car lenghts on a mustang one time in a high speed braking zone! Thanks DPE!
olddragger

moto_bruce

RB,

I think the closest pad in price to OEM are the Hawks. I ran into a similar problem last fall at Watkins Glen and roasted a full set of OEM pads (about 1000 street miles for break in, 300 track miles). I had just moved up to R compounds on the track and the increased traction was more than the stock pads could handle. The front pads were 1/2 worn down and had crumbled along the leading and trailing edges. Surprisingly, the rears were worn even more with only 2-3mm of material left with the same crumbling.

I believe the heavier wear on the rear was due to trailbraking and DSC (which I now turn off at the track since it won't let me trailbrake very deep nor throttle steer as much mid turn). After the initial braking to shed most of the speed for the turn, trailbrakers continue to build heat at the entrance of the turn and depending on how much trailbraking the driver does, he is probably taking the pads out of their normal operating temperature causing accelerated wear. DSC compounds this by actuating rear brakes (individually) to control yaw (slip) and yaw rate, so the rears build up more heat that the fronts with DSC on.

After seeing the rapid wear of the OEM pads, I ended up buying XP8s front and rear. However, that wasn't my only problem. I had managed to heat up the OEM brakes enough to put heavy deposits on the rotors early in the weekend so that the repeated heating of the deposits caused pitting on the rotor surface. Scratch one set of rotors. I didn't discover the damage until I was prepping for my next event so I had to rush replace them with a set of Racing Brake rotors (http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2290142/3)

I had heard good and bad about slotted rotors. It is difficult to make comparisons since I was using OEM pads with stock rotors then XP8s with slotted rotors but it seems that the slotted rotors gave less wear on pads than unslotted. Counter intuitive to me, but I still have at least another 4 days probably 5 (2 days on pads).

RX8SpdDmn has also mentioned that he saw significantly less pad wear with slotted rotors. I believe he was on Hawks (He's friggin fast). It also seems that the rotors are less susceptable to that horrible vibration that you can get from imprinting hot pads on hot rotors.

I'm a proponent of using the same pad front to rear. I didn't think it was a big deal, but consider that with heavy use, the front and rear brake rotors and pads will reach a steady state operating temperature that should be about the same. The pads will operate with a similar coefficient of friction, front to rear, so the balance doesn't change. Once you pick up the pace if you use different pads, one end of the car will have a different coefficient of friction than the other (because it may be outside of its optimal operating temperature), which will change the brake balance.

Bruce

hogcar

It all boils down to how hard you are on brakes. If you were getting several days from the OEM pads then you should be fine with the choice you have. I can't get more than a lap or two without overheating the stock pads. I use Hawk 14's on the front with blues on the rear. Zero fade good wear and the modulation is outstanding. Good luck.

Matt RX8

Some good info guys. I've ordered some HP+ for the rears and will try them out for my next event. If that doesn't work I'll try the XP8s all the way around and if that doesn't work, I'll go to track only pads.

RX8SpdDmn

Let me just back up your decision since I just saw this thread. I've been running HP+ front and rear with Dunlop R-comps. They work great on the track. They last much longer than the stock pads (~2-3 weekends), whereas I ran through my stock rear pads in 1 weekend at Watkins Glen (funny enough, I still had a bit of front pad left). My HP+ rears are wearing like iron!

2nd supporting reason for Hawk HP+ is the price! They're the cheapest out there and should satisfy you completely.

Someone mentioned DPE. They're awesome. You can pretty much do anything they say!

Spin9k

Here'is some subjective and emperical brake performance data to add to this discussion. I had new Racing Brake front rotors, 3 yr old OEM rear rotors, and new Hawk HP+ pads all around this spring. Plus I am the originator of the aformentioned brake duct DIY. I did a couple days of track a month ago w/this setup, but due to a bad cat, wasn't braking hard.

However, w/cat back in order, now I've just added 5.5 hrs of track time over 3 days at LCMT Quebec w/the setup.

Results? Pretty good I'd say. The Hawk's grabby initial bite is gone, left in the 2nd of 3 days. I actually liked that bite, and am hoping it returns and is gone only because of some glazing that needs to wear away in normal street use. Otherwise the brakes were awesome, hauling down consistantly and uneventfully from 90-110 mph range down to 30-70 mph range repeatedly.

With 275x35x18 RT-615s I only got to point of lockup a couple times when the tires got a bit greasy in the hot mid-day sun. Checking the pads now it appears I have 1/2 to 2/3 pad left all around. I don't know how some go thru pads so quickly, mine seem to wear like iron. Even my OEMs did.

My pyrometer was consistently reading no more than 340 degrees front/300 degrees rear (at the hottest spot on the caliper/pad nearest the hub) after 1/2 a cooldown lap and a short stint in paddock to get back to my spot before taking the reading (2 min max) after each session. So I'd guess perhaps 100-150 degrees more on track(?), well within the pad material/ATE Type 200 fluid spec's capability.

To show you the brake cycle I practiced, here is a graph of the brake data + is braking, - is acceleration vs. time for one lap. A lap as you can see is a bit over 2 min. Doing this for 12 sessions allowed for maybe 750 such .7-1.0G brake applications. That's fairly impressive brake performance in my book, and I never felt any noticeable fade or uneven braking and the setup overall is definitely track worthy.

BTW this particular lap in the graph was in the 10th of the 12 sessions.

TeamRX8

iTrader: (25)

real track pads = Hawk DTC70 front and DTC60 rear

Spin9k

BTW, I've been running these Hawk HP+ pads fnt & rear now for maybe 4 thousand miles. Never even the slightest hint of a squeak or squeal. Nada. In fact I did have a bit of squeaking w/the OEMs once a year or so ago, but these pads are dead quiet on or off track. I used the full Mazda kit of backing plates and teflon shims front and plates rear, and the latest TSB greasing procedure. Apparently it helps.

TrackAddict

I have heard great things from OD about the Carbotech pads. I have been using Hawk HP+ and keep them on my car all the time. This year I have done 6 track weekends and driven about 14K miles thus far. I have used up 1 complete set of Hawks, and finished off a partially used set - both sets front and rear. I use the backing plates from teh factory system but the teflon (or whatever that was) stuff has been nicely toasted from last years track activities.
I would like to try XP8 front and rear but they run about double the price of Hawks so unless I get a steal of a deal on them, I will run Hawks. I do get some noise but it isn't bad. I use a decent amount of anti-squeal to keep them quiet. The dust is another story but I can wash my car weekly and deal with it.
On track the Hawks have never faded even at bad tracks. Iwas at CMP last weekend with some pads that had about 50% front and 35% rear material left and they didnt overheat. CMP has 4 hard braking zones leading into very tight corners so you have to whoa the car down to 40 - 60 mph. My buddy set his brakes on fire in his Mustang, He was running the stock pads that come with the Cobra brake package. He put some HP+ on at the track and had no furhter problems. He had 1 foot flames coming out of his wheels wells and set the grass on fire. He is still waiting for a bill from the fire truck that was rolled to extinguish the grass fire
The moral of the story - track pads are a must and Hawk HP+ do a very good job for HPDE level driving.

Spin9k

Yea that stuff toasts up nicely Mine worked itself out the 1st track day and it was real crispy

Ophitoxaemia

one day at laguna seca = all new rotors and pads (stock stuff). the rear rotors cracked and they all warped like crazy. (new ford hd 550F dry fluid the day before so no fade) all the rotors turned bright blue all the way across the face. the stock pads partly disintegrated- pieces missing. this is with streetish tires (kumho MX)

now HP plus in front and HPS in back and new high perf rotors. thats not going to cut it on the track if i go again.

james