fastmike

The best way to see if another car is attaining more lateral G's because of higher static camber solely due to a lower static ride height or other settings is to put a data system inside it and your car with the same tires on both.
Some cars will have more static camber even though ride height is the same as your car. Those are the really good ones that got made.

FM

dgrx8

how will the bilsteins work combined w/ aftermarket springs?

Cooper47

Shipping is free on on orders over $200 from www.allshocks.com

BTW - I think you're right that the smart investment is to buy the KONI's for $575, set em up like Jason and go out to see where you stand.......Personally, I don't want to deal with the KONI's on the street and have better experiences with Bilsteins.

My objective with these shocks is to get something better then the stock Tokicos that I don't have to mess with or worry about. I'm going to call Bilstein to see what my options are for revalving but chances are since I'm running on stock springs they'll work pretty good OTS. I'll keep everyone posted....

Cooper47

Looks like the $89 shocks are gone according the website .....

HD - Recommended shock for most applications, designed to work with the springs that came with your car. These shocks provide improved handling and stability without sacrificing ride comfort.
QTY Part # List Price (per shock) Our Price (per shock) Notes
BE5-B004-H0 (FRONT RIGHT&LEFT) $151.00 $98.15
BE5-B005-H0 (REAR RIGHT&LEFT) $170.00 $110.50 OUT OF STOCK

ULLLOSE

iTrader: (1)

It is a sign, even they don't want you to run that crap.

Cooper47

No, I think what happened is that the can was opened and the worms are just starting to trickle out......

fastmike

Yea...They are selling out quickly.
Bilstein in Poway only had 4 rear's left and like 12 fronts.
Better hurry!
PLEASE revalve them before putting them on your car if you are totally serious about autox performance.
I will be doing a revalve shortly on another set for SZiglers car.
www.fatcatmotorsports.com can also do some cool stuff for you. The guys name is Shaikh(pronounced "Shake"). Call and talk to him and tell him you need to make your RX8 faster than Ullllllloooossseee's and he can likely hook u up even faster than going directly through Bilstein.
Tell him "fastmike" valving and don't let him give you no wussy specs.
FM

Shaikh@FatCatMotorsports

FM pointed me to this thread. Kyle's post really hit a lot on the head and FM speaks from experience. We both agree that consistency is worth more than adjustability. I decided several years ago to understand how dampers work and am now developing my own valving (currently using Bilstein bodies). I'd never be here had I just handed my credit card to Penske/Koni. My curiosity got the better of me!

Bilstein does great work and has excellent products. My services are more personalized with options that go beyond what they provide. I know I could have made Fastmike's Miata even faster and am working on other E/S cars right now.

You can take FCM-converted Bilsteins apart yourself if you have the correct tools. I install a needle valve to allow easier recharging. It also allows me to service the damper more quickly (end of year fluid freshening, etc.). I haven't seen dyno curves on the RX8 HD but I'm guessing they're similar to the HDs/Sports for the 99-05 Miata (firm but not crazy stiff like the 94-97 R-pkg). If so, FM is right - they will need a revalve to work well for autocrossing. I've posted dyno runs for many popular models on the Miata.net forum.

To my credit, I've tuned the local C/S 99 Sport of Dave Theodore. He's running rebuilt Hard S Bilsteins using a custom piston (port sizes modified, etc.). Performance-wise, it's closer to a Penske or Ohlins than what Bilstein rolled off their production floor!

The car is absolutely amazing in damp/wet conditions and has vastly improved grip in the dry over the previous OTS Koni Sports. Rick Gould (whom some of you may know) felt the improvement after his very first run. His comment was 'the car is perfect! don't change anything!' This is the same C/S Miata I won this year's Atwater Tour in - my very first win at my fourth-ever Tour. The car was flawless and fast in the wet on Saturday. My driving was sloppy on Sunday but the margin from Saturday was big enough for the win. So yeah, the setup works - wet or dry.

There's also a 300hp Miata in Florida running a full FCM rebuild and in so doing picked up about 0.7s on their standard 20 second test course. I've also tuned numerous street cars to have far more comfort and control than any existing off-the-shelf damper can provide.

I can add external reservoirs for compression adjustment, do a standard-ish revalve like FM is talking about, or a full rebuild with custom pistons/port sizes for even better control and precision. I'm also developing a few schemes to provide additional adjustability. As I said, a bit beyond what Bilstein does.

The RX8 B/S crowd is so hot/competition so tight that any setup advantage will rise to the top. For anyone local to the SF Bay Area, I would really love to work on your HDs to perfect the valving. First one to buy the rebuild will get two free revalves (which is all I'll need). We can sort details from there, but that's my plug.

Mr. Wood, I've got my eye on you ... perhaps during slush? unless someone beats you to it?

Shaikh

EDIT: I realize this post constitutes advertising. I am a sponsoring vendor on Miata.net and would happily become one here if there is a need for my products/services related to the RX-8. Responses to this post will help determine that.

Cooper47

Hmmm, that's convienent.....Did I mention I live in San Francisco and should have my shocks by next week

9krpmrx8

iTrader: (46)

I have used Bilsteins in off road use only so I can attest to the abuse they can take versus other "off road" shocks (Rancho, etc.)

shikataganai

that's a very interesting link, and an opinionated guy! but at least he backs it up with dyno charts, not just talk.

on this subject, i'd be really interested to see dyno charts of OTS konis vs. OTS bilsteins vs. some of these "secret squirrel" setups that he makes reference to (which i imagine correspond to the "best EVAR" secret sauce recipes alluded to in the posts recently made above this one).

do i think anyone's going to do all this work for me and post 'em up? no, not realistically. :D but if i were to slap something on the car, i'd want hard evidence that they improved things, not just a mishmash of subjective opinions.

fastmike

Gosh dang it! Kevin and I were going to have our way with these BS boys with our cheater shocks and now you have to go and wreck it!!!
LOL!
Seriously, ANYBODY THAT DOESN'T JUMP ON THIS IS A MISSING OUT!!!!

Hey wait a second!I am doing some 8 shocks too.
We'll talk later today Shaikh...I have to go set up a course.
I have some idea's on what the 8 needs and would like you to test a theory about the rear suspension that I have.
Getting Mr. Wood on your side is not a bad idea. Jason is a smart pick but probably too stubborn to go for this until MidpackMike starts beating him. and we have Joe Goeke in our region and the car I am working on Shelbi Ziglers.

FM

ULLLOSE

iTrader: (1)

What really shocks me is far and wide all over the web people are reading his site and taking what he says as gospel. I will agree that he has some great information and seems to come off as a smart guy. However he lacks one thing, the most important thing to me, results.

I prefer to get my advice from people who names appear with "National Champion" next to them multiple times in the back of the rule book.

ULLLOSE

iTrader: (1)

Well you would have to try.... We have already seen with the overdog car you cant beat a slow @ss Miata.

As far off the pace as you were in the RX8 you better get some springs, 18X9.5 wheels, 285s and a 3rd rotor.

Shaikh@FatCatMotorsports

Fastmike may want to post his dynos for the MiataR or Solstice. If a customer of mine wishes to share theirs (and some have), that's their business. If you buy a revalve and order dyno plots, you can do whatever you wish with them.

If someone brings me an RX8 Koni or Bilstein (Cooper47 may soon provide the latter), I'll post the results for free, as I've done on Miataforum for a variety of products. GeorgeH provided curves for his RX8 Tokicos, IIRC. In the meantime, I suggest doing a search there for 'dyno' under my same username to get plots of many popular brands. The curves Dennis indicated on his website are indeed typical for each manufacturer.

In broad strokes, excess rebound or compression will cause a loss of grip. How much depends upon the surface and also the driving style. In general, it's much more likely a car is running more rebound than necessary since that's what most OTS dampers allow you to adjust. You get a lot of 'feel' which fast drivers have gotten used to but it's not an optimal setup.

There's a lot of misinformation about dampers propagated by marketing departments. It makes it easier to sell products. This feeds into 'Mr. X won on Y, so I need to buy them, too.' No, Mr. X won because he's faster than you are. If you had a better setup than Mr. X, you would have the tools to go faster than him.

I've found out the truth for myself through study, experiment, and working with people who have decades of experience in racing, tuning, and winning. The people not posting (and who never will) know what I know and more. I've have had plenty of discussions about suspension tuning on Miataforum. My friend Jason was excoriated for discussing the flaws of the aged Koni design on a BMW forum and I will not get into a protracted debate on this forum over the same topic. People have differing approaches and there are various ways to skin a cat. However, some are definitely better/faster than others. I plan to prove that with the RX8 as I am doing for the Miata.

I convinced myself the best way to promote my product and philosophy is to do what the big companies do - go out and win on them, whether it's me driving or someone else. I'm in the business of making competition cars faster, street cars more comfortable or creating anything in between.

Attachments: Koni info (rebound values are positive) provided by Lee Grimes, the rest generated by me (compression values positive).

fastmike

is all I hear you saying..:P

Drive your car and a car with the Bilsteins once they get revalved back to back on the same tires and then decide. It is a little bit different style of course attack but I'm sure you will pick it right up.

I don't take what DG says as gospel but I do agree with much of what is in the shock section.
Not all of it.. but most of it. That Penske PDF is a good read too.


FM

Cooper47

I pulled this off of a BMW site and thought it explained the "Koni vs. Bilstein" design in fairly simple terms.....

"Technically the main difference is that Bilstein uses a monotube
(single tube) gas shock versus the Koni twin tube (inner and outer
tube) gas shock. In the monotube design, the nitrogen gas
and shock fluid are separated. The gas pressure is higher and the
shock piston is also larger diameter. These features make the shock
more sensitive, more cavitation resistant, and aid cooling."

This doesn't state that one shock is better then the other it just shows there's an obvious difference between the two shock designs. As far as proving which one works best......That still needs to be decided and no matter how good the shock works you still have to drive the car.

Shaikh@FatCatMotorsports

That's a good summary of design differences. However, in terms of performance twin-tubes have a big problem due to the double-wall design - they simply displace less fluid over the entire stroke vs. a monotube. *Especially* in compression, which is really critical as you start looking for better chassis control. This makes monotubes more sensitive as the writer states, which means better control and also reduced cavitation. If you spend sufficient time with a well-tuned mono vs. twin tube, you'll understand why hardcore racers prefer monotubes. I certainly went that direction.

Looking forward to talking with you this week, Stuart!

fastmike

Hey! I think we are onto something!

FM

CodingParadox

It's true - where the heck did this Kyle kid come from?

Tempted to try this out. I'm really not a big fan of the OTS Konis, so for 600$ it might be worth messing with these Bilsteins, as long as it isn't gonna make my DD too stiff.

TeamRX8

iTrader: (25)

unfortunately unless you're making other suspension mods, like hardcore racers do, you can't realize the benefit of a true racing monotube, which is not to be confused with a low buck street monotube like Bilstein HD, Tein, etc., nor can a good Koni double tube be thrown into the same category as the other crap needle valve controller shocks like GAB, Tokico, etc.

it's all relative, and as usual wide sweeping generalizations only muddy the water and cause further misbeliefs on a subject most people don't understand

Shaikh@FatCatMotorsports

Not true. You don't need to make other mods to enjoy the benefit of a high-quality damper, which the HD/Sport are. I can tell the difference on an otherwise-stock suspension, with stock springs/sways. I've spent a LOT of time on Koni Sports, tested JIC, Tokico, Tein, KYB, and now several years with custom-valved Bilsteins with many different valving schemes.

The Bilstein HD is made with the same technology that goes into their higher-end racing products. There is no 'street' monotube (implying lower quality) and no comparison to other twin-tube design, esp. what seems to be called the 'leaky Koni' on the RX-8.

BTW, only the Tein RA and Monoflex are monotubes. On most cars I've investigated, the Basic/HA/SS/Flex are twin. Good designs, though, using needle valves for bleed. Koni uses a spool/preload valve for their rebound adjuster, which is incredibly non-linear by design and amounts to cr*p for serious tuning purposes.

It's not relative to those who know.

CRX Millennium

iTrader: (1)

Check your pm, Shaikh.

Shaikh@FatCatMotorsports

The Tokico Illumina (formerly GAB) or D-spec bleed adjuster is very consistent and pretty linear. The Illumina had a much stronger knee in bump/rebound compared to the D-spec, though, making it a better fit for competition purposes. The D-spec is a bit soft on both rebound and compression for autocross use, IMO.

The KYB AGX is not a great damper, at least on the Miata, due to the valving. Too soft in bump, too high in rebound and you can never find a setting that doesn't jack the car down. Not that reliable it seems, too. The Koni Sport is usually a great match on stock springs and can do the job for autocrossing (obviously) but it's certainly not the end-all of dampers, not even twin tubes. Getting them to match is a big question mark, and I've gotten Bilsteins to match within a few percent side-to-side (comparing forces at 10ips). Truly an excellent design.

fastmike

Biggest front bar you can bolt on...OTS K-yellows....The widest Hoo-Hoo's you can fit on the rim!
ARGH! Autox nirvana.