Thinking about Bilstein HD's
 

I've had KONI's, Bilsteins, KYB's, Tokico's, BOGE's and just about every other OTS shock out there installed on different vehicles that I've owned. That being said I think the shocks that I have had the best luck with have always been Bilsteins. Considering that even with the KONI's I wouldn't be adjusting them that much I wonder if I'm better off with the Bilsteins.

Is anybody running the Bilsteins HD's competitively on a stock car? Are there any arguments against the Bilstein other then they're not what all the "fast" guys are running?

I do not know of anyone using them at all. Need to make sure they are legal, perch height, length etc. Try them, if they suck its only money. :)

You know what they say about pioneers...they're the ones with the arrows in their backs...:lol2:

All kidding aside, you would have to figure out the valving, ots would probably be way too soft...I ASSume.

Well they're only $89 a piece from www.allshocks.com:tightass:

Seriously, I've read a couple reviews and from what I can tell they make the car a little less lofty and a touch firmer. Bilstein usually make a pretty good product so I am sure they're an upgrade from the OE Tokicos. The more I drive this car the more the shocks are starting to bother me, I feel like the car is just bouncing all over the place......:dubs:

Bilstein valving is velocity-based... the harder the impact, the more open the valve becomes. For small, slow motions, they're very stiff.

I'm thinking of trying a set. I've used them on a 944 before and really liked them. The HDs are supposed to be an "OEM replacement" shock, so perches should be the same as stock.

If the shocks have "snap ring" tops, I am going to HEAVILY recommend getting them.
Revalves are only $65 each and you can do some really cool stuff with those dampers if you want to go the revalve route.
REALLY, REALLY cool stuff.
Hmmm....Hey Joe! Want to try out some revalved dampers?
FM

Edit: The only saving grace would be easy revalving, but I think adjustability trumps that...

Don't do it. Just spend the money on the Konis and be done with it until you spend more money on the custom Konis.

Signed,

An idiot with D-specs

And, yes, everyone told me not to do it (especially baghead:))

Adjusters are a nice toy but most people mess with stuff and don't even have shock dyno's of their dampers.
Bilsteins are a VERY VERY high quality damper. I have visited the shop in Poway and it is VERY clean and well run.
Check out this site for more on how good Bilsteins work:
http://farnorthracing.com/autocross_secrets.html
Read the shock section.
FM

I had KONI's on my MINI Cooper and loved them for racing but not for anything else......Add to that they started leaking after about 1.5 years and I finally took them off and put the oem dampers back on.

Adjustable shocks are nice to play around with but I do not have the equipment to properly analyze the settings after every run......

Bilsteins will make an RX-8 on stock springs look like an off road vehicle ...

And likely be .75 of a second faster on the autox course if revalved for stock class autox versus the OTS yellow ones!
FM

This is what revalving Bilsteins can do for you:

PRO1 - Pro Indexed Stock (top)
# T Name Car # Year Make/Model
1 T Fastmike Lillejord 1 2006 Pontiac Solstice (XCS)
44.119 [53.673] 100.000
2 T Kyle Freiheit 166 2006 Pontiac Solstice (XCS)
44.502 [54.139] 99.139
3 T Kevin Dietz 77 2006 Pontiac Solstice (XCS)
44.702 [54.382] 98.696
4 T Ron Bauer 190 2007 Mazda MX-5 (XCSP)
44.712 [52.914] 98.674
5 T Joe Goeke 49 2006 Mazda Mx-5 (XCSP)
45.317 [53.629] 97.356

Joe coned his last run which was pretty close to Ron's time.
Kevin was thrilled that he beat the CSP monster by a whooping .010!!! WOOHOO!

But then the new Sheriff and his new Deputy came in on their revalved Bilsteins..... WHAP! WHAP!
Oh...I went for MAXIMUM gas pressure too. Yea...it looks like a 4x4 but sure seems to work well.
Well enough that Kevin's shocks are in SoCal right now getting the FastMikesecretvalving done to them.

FM

Like you would have a clue as to how fast an RX-8 can go.... You packed it in after what three events? :icon_no2:

I have the HDs and did a short evaluation on them here https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-wheels-tires-brakes-suspension-55/bilstein-hd-shocks-impressions-112151/

I have done another track day on them and I am still pleased with my purchase. I really think the suitability of these depends on your goals and your expectations. They are not a hard core stiff shock that will jar you and make you feel like you are a real racer. Instead, you can live with them as a daily driver and not be let down when you take it to your favorite road course.

There are many view points on suspension tuning and I am no expert on the subject but have done a bit of reading. A suspension that has some travel and gives a bit does have merit on a road course. Auto crossing may be a bit different and the speeds are significantly lower. Since I am not and autocrosser, I can't give an informed opinion on what is best there.

At any rate, the price of admission is low, the quality is considered among the best, and they can be easily revalved to meet any application without sacrificing the Bilstein quality.

While it is a nice write up the fact that you changed your springs makes it irrelevant for anyone that is going to run in stock.

Sure the price of admission is low to start... Then add on a revalve and you are even with the Konis. Oh wait you did not nail it on the first revalve, how many will it take to get them just right? If you are going to dick around with all of that you might as well spend the money for some real race shocks that are double adjustable and have a lot of range. By the time you pay for multiple revalves, shipping as well as your time to pull them on and off you have blown your season. :scratchhe

Well, my season is already blown so that doesn't concern me much.....Mid Pack Mike is spanking the SFR folks pretty good up here so using him as a bench mark should give me a baseline for vehicle set up and driving.

I'm not sure it's worth the hassle to go out on my own and try to reinvent the wheel. The fact I like Bilsteins better then KONI's has more to do with my personal experiences rather then lap times.

That being said, I've only used Bilstein's on cars that have been lowered and not interested in running around in car that looks like the general lee on off road tires.....

Yea. You are correct. I was trying to lead the pack pre Koni S/A availability and gave up because of the rear suspension design and TQ weaknesses of the 8.

Local PAX wins are important to me and I hate courses that trap the 8 at the bottom of second gear.
We have a lot of those up here in Seattle. Slow 180's do the 8 no good. Especially if you can't go to first or get revved up in second somewhere on course.

I just designed a recent course that let Joe brush the revlimiter in 2nd 3 times but still met all SCCA legality rules.
Joe had fun on that one. Most courses are not like that though.

Anyhow, I am getting better at this car set-up thing and others are thinking the same thing and copying my stuff.

Did I mention that I only have revalved the rears once(1st try) and haven't touched the fronts yet on the SOL?
Uh...I think I went in the right direction.
We'll see this weekend. If me and my codriver(s) whoop em again, I think I might be onto something.:rock:
I still think Ron is going to win the "faster" events though.
Shocks only do so much. My car is a heavy and wide low hp tank and the math starts to work against you.

From what I have seen/read/experienced, high end shocks have adjusters but those adjusters might not adjust the area you want to adjust.
Most people want that "adjustability" even if it does them no good.
I still can't figure out why....

Don't worry Jason, if we get Joe's or Shelbi's car winning the pax game up here, I will let you in on the secret sauce formula.
What works here seems to work well at HPT.

FM

GD, BS must literally ooze from your pores ... :rolleyes:

Okay, so in the spirit of diversity I ordered a set of the Bilsteins......:icon_no2:

Once I get the shocks I'll do a quick write up on this board.....Of course, if at the next event I beat Mid Pack Mike on my sloppy 2nd Kumho's then we'll know something has improved.....:lol2:

BTW - www.allshocks.com is a division of Turner Motorsports.

You will have to get in the line for that :lol2:

I'd be most interested in your experiment. Adjustment on Koni is not that big of deal to me, and leaking oil seems to be a fairly common problem on OTS units, not just RX-8 application but others too.

Comparing PAX results across different cars, drivers, and classes to argue the advantage of one shock over another doesn't really mean much. It may make you happy, but in the overall scheme of things it's hard to make a case that the "advantage" came from PAX factors, course dependability, driver performance, course conditions during each run group, etc.

Stick a set of Bilstein's on a B Stock RX-8, then get Mike or Joe or Jason to run it back-to-back against their own car. That's the only way you'll ever know if one shock has a clear advantage over another.

Kevin is in the same class as mine(CS) and basically has an identical car(ZOK) other than my revalved rear Bilsteins.
We ran at the same time/same course etc.
THAT is a very good comparison that says my car has gotten faster due to the shocks and the shocks only. My codriver got second place against those guys which is another good data point saying my car is better now post shock change.

I do agree that looking at CSP versus CS is not a fair comparison but Ron has been having some pretty good luck with his new car and I was excited to win by so much over him.
We'll see what this weekend brings.

OH!!!!
RX8 Bilsteins are "snap ring top" models and all dimensions are identical to stock is the word I am getting.
It is likely(VERY, likely) that they will need revalved to compete at the top level.
We have 2 RX8's so we are going to build one to compare to the other(Joe's) to see if anymore BS can come "oozing out of my pores".
It is nice having 2 cars to compare...Just like we are doing with the Solstice(s).
MUCH better than making changes on just one car imo.
We'll see how it goes.
I am excited! Bilsteins rule!

FM

And you guys were both on the same size and model tire with equal life in them?

I just ordered a set :)