Thinking about Bilstein HD's
 

I've had KONI's, Bilsteins, KYB's, Tokico's, BOGE's and just about every other OTS shock out there installed on different vehicles that I've owned. That being said I think the shocks that I have had the best luck with have always been Bilsteins. Considering that even with the KONI's I wouldn't be adjusting them that much I wonder if I'm better off with the Bilsteins.

Is anybody running the Bilsteins HD's competitively on a stock car? Are there any arguments against the Bilstein other then they're not what all the "fast" guys are running?

I do not know of anyone using them at all. Need to make sure they are legal, perch height, length etc. Try them, if they suck its only money. :)

You know what they say about pioneers...they're the ones with the arrows in their backs...:lol2:

All kidding aside, you would have to figure out the valving, ots would probably be way too soft...I ASSume.

Well they're only $89 a piece from www.allshocks.com:tightass:

Seriously, I've read a couple reviews and from what I can tell they make the car a little less lofty and a touch firmer. Bilstein usually make a pretty good product so I am sure they're an upgrade from the OE Tokicos. The more I drive this car the more the shocks are starting to bother me, I feel like the car is just bouncing all over the place......:dubs:

Bilstein valving is velocity-based... the harder the impact, the more open the valve becomes. For small, slow motions, they're very stiff.

I'm thinking of trying a set. I've used them on a 944 before and really liked them. The HDs are supposed to be an "OEM replacement" shock, so perches should be the same as stock.

If the shocks have "snap ring" tops, I am going to HEAVILY recommend getting them.
Revalves are only $65 each and you can do some really cool stuff with those dampers if you want to go the revalve route.
REALLY, REALLY cool stuff.
Hmmm....Hey Joe! Want to try out some revalved dampers?
FM

Edit: The only saving grace would be easy revalving, but I think adjustability trumps that...

Don't do it. Just spend the money on the Konis and be done with it until you spend more money on the custom Konis.

Signed,

An idiot with D-specs

And, yes, everyone told me not to do it (especially baghead:))

Adjusters are a nice toy but most people mess with stuff and don't even have shock dyno's of their dampers.
Bilsteins are a VERY VERY high quality damper. I have visited the shop in Poway and it is VERY clean and well run.
Check out this site for more on how good Bilsteins work:
http://farnorthracing.com/autocross_secrets.html
Read the shock section.
FM

I had KONI's on my MINI Cooper and loved them for racing but not for anything else......Add to that they started leaking after about 1.5 years and I finally took them off and put the oem dampers back on.

Adjustable shocks are nice to play around with but I do not have the equipment to properly analyze the settings after every run......

Bilsteins will make an RX-8 on stock springs look like an off road vehicle ...

And likely be .75 of a second faster on the autox course if revalved for stock class autox versus the OTS yellow ones!
FM

This is what revalving Bilsteins can do for you:

PRO1 - Pro Indexed Stock (top)
# T Name Car # Year Make/Model
1 T Fastmike Lillejord 1 2006 Pontiac Solstice (XCS)
44.119 [53.673] 100.000
2 T Kyle Freiheit 166 2006 Pontiac Solstice (XCS)
44.502 [54.139] 99.139
3 T Kevin Dietz 77 2006 Pontiac Solstice (XCS)
44.702 [54.382] 98.696
4 T Ron Bauer 190 2007 Mazda MX-5 (XCSP)
44.712 [52.914] 98.674
5 T Joe Goeke 49 2006 Mazda Mx-5 (XCSP)
45.317 [53.629] 97.356

Joe coned his last run which was pretty close to Ron's time.
Kevin was thrilled that he beat the CSP monster by a whooping .010!!! WOOHOO!

But then the new Sheriff and his new Deputy came in on their revalved Bilsteins..... WHAP! WHAP!
Oh...I went for MAXIMUM gas pressure too. Yea...it looks like a 4x4 but sure seems to work well.
Well enough that Kevin's shocks are in SoCal right now getting the FastMikesecretvalving done to them.

FM

Like you would have a clue as to how fast an RX-8 can go.... You packed it in after what three events? :icon_no2:

I have the HDs and did a short evaluation on them here https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-wheels-tires-brakes-suspension-55/bilstein-hd-shocks-impressions-112151/

I have done another track day on them and I am still pleased with my purchase. I really think the suitability of these depends on your goals and your expectations. They are not a hard core stiff shock that will jar you and make you feel like you are a real racer. Instead, you can live with them as a daily driver and not be let down when you take it to your favorite road course.

There are many view points on suspension tuning and I am no expert on the subject but have done a bit of reading. A suspension that has some travel and gives a bit does have merit on a road course. Auto crossing may be a bit different and the speeds are significantly lower. Since I am not and autocrosser, I can't give an informed opinion on what is best there.

At any rate, the price of admission is low, the quality is considered among the best, and they can be easily revalved to meet any application without sacrificing the Bilstein quality.

While it is a nice write up the fact that you changed your springs makes it irrelevant for anyone that is going to run in stock.

Sure the price of admission is low to start... Then add on a revalve and you are even with the Konis. Oh wait you did not nail it on the first revalve, how many will it take to get them just right? If you are going to dick around with all of that you might as well spend the money for some real race shocks that are double adjustable and have a lot of range. By the time you pay for multiple revalves, shipping as well as your time to pull them on and off you have blown your season. :scratchhe

Well, my season is already blown so that doesn't concern me much.....Mid Pack Mike is spanking the SFR folks pretty good up here so using him as a bench mark should give me a baseline for vehicle set up and driving.

I'm not sure it's worth the hassle to go out on my own and try to reinvent the wheel. The fact I like Bilsteins better then KONI's has more to do with my personal experiences rather then lap times.

That being said, I've only used Bilstein's on cars that have been lowered and not interested in running around in car that looks like the general lee on off road tires.....

Yea. You are correct. I was trying to lead the pack pre Koni S/A availability and gave up because of the rear suspension design and TQ weaknesses of the 8.

Local PAX wins are important to me and I hate courses that trap the 8 at the bottom of second gear.
We have a lot of those up here in Seattle. Slow 180's do the 8 no good. Especially if you can't go to first or get revved up in second somewhere on course.

I just designed a recent course that let Joe brush the revlimiter in 2nd 3 times but still met all SCCA legality rules.
Joe had fun on that one. Most courses are not like that though.

Anyhow, I am getting better at this car set-up thing and others are thinking the same thing and copying my stuff.

Did I mention that I only have revalved the rears once(1st try) and haven't touched the fronts yet on the SOL?
Uh...I think I went in the right direction.
We'll see this weekend. If me and my codriver(s) whoop em again, I think I might be onto something.:rock:
I still think Ron is going to win the "faster" events though.
Shocks only do so much. My car is a heavy and wide low hp tank and the math starts to work against you.

From what I have seen/read/experienced, high end shocks have adjusters but those adjusters might not adjust the area you want to adjust.
Most people want that "adjustability" even if it does them no good.
I still can't figure out why....

Don't worry Jason, if we get Joe's or Shelbi's car winning the pax game up here, I will let you in on the secret sauce formula.
What works here seems to work well at HPT.

FM

GD, BS must literally ooze from your pores ... :rolleyes:

Okay, so in the spirit of diversity I ordered a set of the Bilsteins......:icon_no2:

Once I get the shocks I'll do a quick write up on this board.....Of course, if at the next event I beat Mid Pack Mike on my sloppy 2nd Kumho's then we'll know something has improved.....:lol2:

BTW - www.allshocks.com is a division of Turner Motorsports.

You will have to get in the line for that :lol2:

I'd be most interested in your experiment. Adjustment on Koni is not that big of deal to me, and leaking oil seems to be a fairly common problem on OTS units, not just RX-8 application but others too.

Comparing PAX results across different cars, drivers, and classes to argue the advantage of one shock over another doesn't really mean much. It may make you happy, but in the overall scheme of things it's hard to make a case that the "advantage" came from PAX factors, course dependability, driver performance, course conditions during each run group, etc.

Stick a set of Bilstein's on a B Stock RX-8, then get Mike or Joe or Jason to run it back-to-back against their own car. That's the only way you'll ever know if one shock has a clear advantage over another.

Kevin is in the same class as mine(CS) and basically has an identical car(ZOK) other than my revalved rear Bilsteins.
We ran at the same time/same course etc.
THAT is a very good comparison that says my car has gotten faster due to the shocks and the shocks only. My codriver got second place against those guys which is another good data point saying my car is better now post shock change.

I do agree that looking at CSP versus CS is not a fair comparison but Ron has been having some pretty good luck with his new car and I was excited to win by so much over him.
We'll see what this weekend brings.

OH!!!!
RX8 Bilsteins are "snap ring top" models and all dimensions are identical to stock is the word I am getting.
It is likely(VERY, likely) that they will need revalved to compete at the top level.
We have 2 RX8's so we are going to build one to compare to the other(Joe's) to see if anymore BS can come "oozing out of my pores".
It is nice having 2 cars to compare...Just like we are doing with the Solstice(s).
MUCH better than making changes on just one car imo.
We'll see how it goes.
I am excited! Bilsteins rule!

FM

And you guys were both on the same size and model tire with equal life in them?

I just ordered a set :)

Adjustability should make a difference. The whole idea that the Bilstein's can be revalved reflects the benefits of modification of damping characteristics. Unless you autocross at the same site all of the time, adjustability should matter.

Also, having a Solstice that looks like a 4x4 might be less of a problem than having an RX8 that looks that way. Adjustability of camber in the front of an RX8 that rides high is a major issue.

According to the Turner Motorsports Rep the heigth increase should not be any more then a 1/8 of an inch if any.....Personally, if they raise my car I'll be a little disapointed but I'm hoping that the height stays the same. As for revalving the shocks, I may do that in the future but for right now I'm just looking for something that is better then the stock Tokicos that work well on the street and track.

I think the KONI is probably a better autocross shock off the shelf even though the Bilsteins are supposed to be stiffer shock in certain situations. Obviously the KONI's are proven and Bilsteins have yet to be explored but I've never been very good a following the leader even if it is the smart thing to do.....:banghead:

Kevin's tires are 22 or 26 run tires..(You know the size we use)
Kevins were the "day 2" special pick tires from SD which got 6 runs + Pro(14 runs?) + 6 more runs at our first event.)
I think Kevin ran his Day 1 SD tires for the first Pro runs so he could have been on 22 run tires at the day in question.
Mine had 15 runs on them up to then with 2 wicked spins with pretty black curlycue skid marks that went on and on(both at 55mph+)from my codrivers at the first event. (partially from a now fixed mechanical problem).

Kevin and I both have the same weight wheels and use the same tire pressure gauge on both cars..Same pressure, same fuel etc.
My car is white and his is black. Maybe my paint weighs less???LOL!

The visible difference between the cars was huge at the rear.(which has always been my complaint about the ZOK when "I" am driving and why I had such a prob in the long slaloms at Nats.
Not anymore!
Call and ask Kevin (or Ron?) what they thought of how the car looked while on course versus Kevin's car.

Cmon Jason! Get on team Bilstein!

FM

Why would I spend a dime on a car that is already a winner?

It would be one thing if you could have even matched the BS guys up there and were looking for an edge, you were well behind them and expect shocks to make up the gap. :rolleyes:

Get those shocks on for the tour... I bet you are looking at 4th. :spank:

You should have been at the last event, I left the door wiiiiiiiiiide open for whoever wanted it...I was loopy with allergies, having spent the previous day cutting down Oak and Apple trees and had a hard time staying awake for a whole lap...I even took off on my last run with the A/C on and my seat back :uhh:

Anyhow, when you get the Bilsteins on, we could do some back to back and see what's up.

BTW, why has Jason's "mid pack Mike" stuck? You guys know I'm either on the podium or in the bleachers...there is no "mid pack"...jeez, now I see guys who have never even run against me using it on unrelated topics...I guess it's "mine", whether I want it or not! :lol2:

Adjusters can be of help unless your adjusters never meet the damping rates of a well setup non adjustable shock. Will your adjuster help you adjust "your" shocks to fit the site? sure.
Will that automagically make them faster than a shock that is revalved that works well on all asphalt bumpy or smooth, rain or shine? "I" don't think so because that has not been "my" experience.
I have owned lots of Koni Yellows. OTS/revalved/DA etc and not one of those has ever approached how good the revalved Bilsteins work or feel.
Didn't matter how much I turned the knobs. Never as good or as fast. IMO of course.

I don't get too hung up on static camber while at rest.
Max the adjusters out and what you get is what you get. Just because your car sits 1/4" lower and has .2 more neg camber when it is sitting there while the motor is off does not mean that you will have more camber while on course and turning versus the car whose camber is measured sitting 1/4" higher at .2 less neg.
People degas shocks to "lower" the car and "make" more static camber but I am not of that camp. I worry more about cavitation than making more static camber at rest.

We'll see how it all works out. Looks like from the earlier post that we are past the point of no return.

You guys can settle this once and for all in Packwood.... mwood VS FM, the loser is mid-pack mike for life. :boxing_sm :icon16: :rollingla

I think FM has lost it forever, now that he has won a number of Tours and done podiums at Nationals...I can't make any of those claims. :)

Hmmmm......Packwood, I've never been and hear it's wonderful that time of year.....

Jason, you bring your wheels and tires and I'll drive up my car. Fly in, fly out....Check out the Bilsteins, there's an excuse in your back pocket if you need it and you'll get to share a room with a sleep walking zombie.....Sounds like fun.

Justed checked the dates for the Packwood Tour and it's not going to work for me....It's the same weekend as the Pebble Beach Concours and I'm pretty sure my attendance to this event is written in a contract somewhere.....Maybe next time.

they were either never valved right or you're brain dead ...

jeez, Mark, tell us how you really feel.

well...at least you left an "out" (either/or)....kinda...:lol2:

Just because I have moved away from the K-yellows doesn't mean I didn't win top pax or tour events with them from time to time.
Serious money into getting the yellow's to the point where "I" could do that though. Converted to D/A's etc.
Remember 04 SD tour, FM vs Chiles?
That was a very exciting race. Tied to the .000 going into the last runs.
He sure was a lot nicer to me AFTER the event than before.

Even after all that $$$ and tuning, they did not have the feel and confidence and repeatability and trust that I now get with the Bilsteins.

Heck! Why not setup a 8 with revalved Bilsteins?

Once you revalve them, you have an EXCELLENT pure autox shock if you get the valving right or even in the ballpark.
I am getting better and better at that with the more experiments that I do 2!

Also, I think that a damper(I don't care how many adjustments it has) is never "perfect" for a complete course.
It is impossible to have perfection unless you have fully active suspension.

Why would the Bilstein be a better engineered or designed shock? I've heard that from a number of people who seem to have well respected opinions. Hey, I'm not trying to open a can of worms here, but I'm curious to hear thoughts.

I have seen a Penske revalved to match a 2812... I am sure with enough work you could get the RX-8 to go fast on any shock. I however have doubts that the guy that packed it in after a few events will be able to. At this point if FM made the car 1 sec faster he might be able to keep up with Joe based off of his past performance when he actually tried to run the RX-8.

We all know FM likes to talk, usually about how fast his buddies are. So I am sure we will hear about how fast he makes the RX-8 go but I doubt we will see him run it outside of a few local events.

:stickpoke

I like talking about how fast my buddies are too, humblepie I guess. I only wish I beat them as often as mike does.

I can't even begin to tell you how many car sites I have read threads that go on and on and on about Twin Tube vs Monotube, Single vs Double, Degassed vs normal. Everyone has an opinion because they have won on that particular shock(ie Twin Tube, converted DA, Degassed etc) and sometimes the argument gets pretty ugly. What I have taken away is that on a stock car, low speed compression is KING. It may be a bandaid as it mimicks stiffer spring rates, but it is a huge one that really helps and the fact is, you can get this a limited number of places, through revalving a Koni Yellow, a Bilstein or going to something custom(DA etc). Rebound is a bandaid as well and does make the car more stiff and predictable but at the expense overall traction. Unlike compression, you can get this anywhere, OTS shocks, Koni Yellows(crank em up), Bilsteins(look at Miata R shocks) and all the other guys(tokico, AGX, etc).

I am not going to get into the specifics of monotube vs twin tube, but in an apples to apples comparison, monotubes are better(bilstein, koni 2800, penske etc) but not absolutely necessary.

The # thing that I see keeping fast drivers fast are car predictability/repeatability and the driver familiarity with that setup. At the end of the day you still have to drive the car and what fast guys like FM, Jason, mid-pack mike and TeamBaghead all have in common is that they have the shocks on their cars that they are comfortable driving at the limit in.

Flame away if you want, but Mike's solstice feels a whole hell of lot better then it did. Do I think it would be faster on koni yellows? Who cares, I will probably never know, I like the way it feels now. I will gaurentee this though, if somebody starts beating Ulllose every weekend in a RX-8, and the only difference between the cars are shocks and driver, he will be making some changes.

Well said Kyle.

Jason: Making the 8 "fast on any shock" is not my goal.
Making the 8 FASTER than the fast ones is.
You can doubt than I can do it but that will just make me try harder. Growing up, people would tell me "you can't do that". Uh..wanna bet?
I am pretty easily baited into doing stuff. Andy gets me "going" all the time.

Yea...I really tried hard with the 8 for those 3 events:uhh: not.

I mostly went to the Miata over the 8(besides not liking the 8) since I had something to prove in ES after all my ballyhooing and met my goal with that one.
The MiataR is a good choice in ES.
I might still be running that car if not for the SOl which I considered more "grown up".
Solstice is a given now.
The car will be plenty good and fun and competitive from now on and mine is working well for me. I don't do as well in Kevin's for whatever reason(s).

RX8 is a fun experiment. I will know pretty quickly if I got something going in the right direction.
I will likely share my damping curves/rates too. As long as everyone is nice to me.
:)
But Jason is right, once my little experiment is done, it will be unlikely that you will see me much of me in BS.
You might see the shocks though!

FM

:newbie:

The RX8 is the second car I've autocrossed and the first that I've taken more than a dozen runs on non oem shocks (there was an infamous experiment with Penske DA's on my old Z06:puke: )...so, I have no idea what I like or don't like...therefore, I'm all ears and looking forward to learning how people choose valving and what the implications are of changing.

I will say the setup ULLLLLLLLLLOSE has shared with me seems to be very, very good. It will be hard to improve on, I'd bet. ;)

If you haven't read the shock section of the link I put up on page 1, DG goes into much more detail of why he likes the Bilsteins. He says it much better than I can.
Here it is again:
http://farnorthracing.com/autocross_secrets.html

I think it is a combo of many things why I like the Bilsteins.
VERY high quality materials and very good designers and those dang things will do just about anything you ask of them on revalves without failing.
It's all oil and orfices and gas pressure but Bilstein seem to have it figured out for a cheap ass like myself.
Also, I have never had a Bilstein fail.(leak/break/change/whatever).
Damping a year after a rebuild will be the same in 99.99%+ of the time.

It is still amazing to me that I can literally draw a picture on a shock dyno print-out and write "do this" and presto! My shocks come back and they "do this".

Another thing I really like about Bilstein is that they are big into off road racing which really tests the durability of dampers. Can you say 500F degree oil? You learn some stuff when you are designing against that kind of abuse.

When I visited the shop in Poway CA, I was very impressed with the cleanliness of the place and the professionalism that I saw. Lots of microfiber towels protecting shock shafts and parts.

They are nice too. In the past, I have been treated with disrespect and poor customer service from some other "big name" shock companies so I went shopping with some new idea's(actually other's idea's that made sense to me/thanks Andy!) and came across the Bilsteins which seem to fit the bill for what I was looking for.
Others have been very nice to me along the way and I like doing business with those people and would help them out if they needed it and I was able to.

FM

Here's the deal.....Our next event is at Candlestick:puke:

If you're wooping up on everyone again after your second run you should take my car out with the Bilsteins installed and see how it feels.....I do not know how it's going to feel but I bet it's going to be quite a bit different then your fully compressed KONI's. :SHOCKED:

You are correct Mid...uh..I mean Mike.

Cooper47: take your shocks when you get them and send them to Bilstein in Poway and have them revalved for your specific wants/needs.
Do you want maximum autox performance or some streetability?
What is your "style" of driving?
It will be the best $65 per shock that you will ever spend.
If you are scared of going "all out", you can easily find a happy medium.
Lots of concrete freeway expansion joints in your daily drive? You will notice them more if you go with a typical revalve.
FM

Thanks...
Hey!If you stay off the cones:nono:, I see great things in your future.
You impressed me in SD.

Yep, I will work on the driver just like I did in 2005 when they were all kicking my @ss. :spank:

It is a stock class car, you can do a lot more to slow a stock car down then you can to speed it up. The worst thing you can do imho is spend all your time fing with the car at events rather than driving it. :dubs:

I totally agree, I know of some national champs that spend the big $$$$$$$$ on high end DAs, do some testing, Set em once and then never touch them again, Seriously.
I think thats why the bilsteins are a great fit for autoxing. Bilsteins come with a ton of rebound out of the box, just add some low speed compression front and rear(proportionately) and DRIVE. Its like those infomercials, Bilstein "set it and forget it" :)

Kyle

Am I wrong in thinking that ride height has something to do with center of gravity? And while static camber does not necessarily impact camber in motion, it seems that if the camber is closer to optimal at the beginning of a corner there would be a basic advantage to that. I believe the difference between a high riding RX8, like mine, and a low riding RX8 is anywhere between .5 and 1 degree. And that will make a difference. No doubt in my mind.

The Bilsteins might work, but this cheap fix is going to cost 360 bucks plus shipping to begin, 260 bucks plus shipping for the revalve, and repeat until the optimal is found. Konis can be had for 575 shipped. It could be argued that the Bilsteins have more potential, but until somebody demonstrates that and shares the recipe, the smart money is on the Konis.

What happens if it rains? Or, what if it is unseasonably warm or cold at Nationals? Even the "set it and forget it" crowd will be making adjustments in the case of climate issues--if they can. Adjustability will pay dividends then.