Cito

Adjustability should make a difference. The whole idea that the Bilstein's can be revalved reflects the benefits of modification of damping characteristics. Unless you autocross at the same site all of the time, adjustability should matter.

Also, having a Solstice that looks like a 4x4 might be less of a problem than having an RX8 that looks that way. Adjustability of camber in the front of an RX8 that rides high is a major issue.

Cooper47

According to the Turner Motorsports Rep the heigth increase should not be any more then a 1/8 of an inch if any.....Personally, if they raise my car I'll be a little disapointed but I'm hoping that the height stays the same. As for revalving the shocks, I may do that in the future but for right now I'm just looking for something that is better then the stock Tokicos that work well on the street and track.

I think the KONI is probably a better autocross shock off the shelf even though the Bilsteins are supposed to be stiffer shock in certain situations. Obviously the KONI's are proven and Bilsteins have yet to be explored but I've never been very good a following the leader even if it is the smart thing to do.....

fastmike

Kevin's tires are 22 or 26 run tires..(You know the size we use)
Kevins were the "day 2" special pick tires from SD which got 6 runs + Pro(14 runs?) + 6 more runs at our first event.)
I think Kevin ran his Day 1 SD tires for the first Pro runs so he could have been on 22 run tires at the day in question.
Mine had 15 runs on them up to then with 2 wicked spins with pretty black curlycue skid marks that went on and on(both at 55mph+)from my codrivers at the first event. (partially from a now fixed mechanical problem).

Kevin and I both have the same weight wheels and use the same tire pressure gauge on both cars..Same pressure, same fuel etc.
My car is white and his is black. Maybe my paint weighs less???LOL!

The visible difference between the cars was huge at the rear.(which has always been my complaint about the ZOK when "I" am driving and why I had such a prob in the long slaloms at Nats.
Not anymore!
Call and ask Kevin (or Ron?) what they thought of how the car looked while on course versus Kevin's car.

Cmon Jason! Get on team Bilstein!

FM

ULLLOSE

iTrader: (1)

Why would I spend a dime on a car that is already a winner?

It would be one thing if you could have even matched the BS guys up there and were looking for an edge, you were well behind them and expect shocks to make up the gap.

Get those shocks on for the tour... I bet you are looking at 4th.

mwood

You should have been at the last event, I left the door wiiiiiiiiiide open for whoever wanted it...I was loopy with allergies, having spent the previous day cutting down Oak and Apple trees and had a hard time staying awake for a whole lap...I even took off on my last run with the A/C on and my seat back

Anyhow, when you get the Bilsteins on, we could do some back to back and see what's up.

BTW, why has Jason's "mid pack Mike" stuck? You guys know I'm either on the podium or in the bleachers...there is no "mid pack"...jeez, now I see guys who have never even run against me using it on unrelated topics...I guess it's "mine", whether I want it or not!

fastmike

Adjusters can be of help unless your adjusters never meet the damping rates of a well setup non adjustable shock. Will your adjuster help you adjust "your" shocks to fit the site? sure.
Will that automagically make them faster than a shock that is revalved that works well on all asphalt bumpy or smooth, rain or shine? "I" don't think so because that has not been "my" experience.
I have owned lots of Koni Yellows. OTS/revalved/DA etc and not one of those has ever approached how good the revalved Bilsteins work or feel.
Didn't matter how much I turned the *****. Never as good or as fast. IMO of course.

I don't get too hung up on static camber while at rest.
Max the adjusters out and what you get is what you get. Just because your car sits 1/4" lower and has .2 more neg camber when it is sitting there while the motor is off does not mean that you will have more camber while on course and turning versus the car whose camber is measured sitting 1/4" higher at .2 less neg.
People degas shocks to "lower" the car and "make" more static camber but I am not of that camp. I worry more about cavitation than making more static camber at rest.

We'll see how it all works out. Looks like from the earlier post that we are past the point of no return.

ULLLOSE

iTrader: (1)

You guys can settle this once and for all in Packwood.... mwood VS FM, the loser is mid-pack mike for life.

mwood

I think FM has lost it forever, now that he has won a number of Tours and done podiums at Nationals...I can't make any of those claims.

Cooper47

Hmmmm......Packwood, I've never been and hear it's wonderful that time of year.....

Jason, you bring your wheels and tires and I'll drive up my car. Fly in, fly out....Check out the Bilsteins, there's an excuse in your back pocket if you need it and you'll get to share a room with a sleep walking zombie.....Sounds like fun.

Cooper47

Justed checked the dates for the Packwood Tour and it's not going to work for me....It's the same weekend as the Pebble Beach Concours and I'm pretty sure my attendance to this event is written in a contract somewhere.....Maybe next time.

TeamRX8

iTrader: (25)

they were either never valved right or you're brain dead ...

mwood

jeez, Mark, tell us how you really feel.

well...at least you left an "out" (either/or)....kinda...

fastmike

Just because I have moved away from the K-yellows doesn't mean I didn't win top pax or tour events with them from time to time.
Serious money into getting the yellow's to the point where "I" could do that though. Converted to D/A's etc.
Remember 04 SD tour, FM vs Chiles?
That was a very exciting race. Tied to the .000 going into the last runs.
He sure was a lot nicer to me AFTER the event than before.

Even after all that $$$ and tuning, they did not have the feel and confidence and repeatability and trust that I now get with the Bilsteins.

Heck! Why not setup a 8 with revalved Bilsteins?

Once you revalve them, you have an EXCELLENT pure autox shock if you get the valving right or even in the ballpark.
I am getting better and better at that with the more experiments that I do 2!

Also, I think that a damper(I don't care how many adjustments it has) is never "perfect" for a complete course.
It is impossible to have perfection unless you have fully active suspension.

mwood

Why would the Bilstein be a better engineered or designed shock? I've heard that from a number of people who seem to have well respected opinions. Hey, I'm not trying to open a can of worms here, but I'm curious to hear thoughts.

ULLLOSE

iTrader: (1)

I have seen a Penske revalved to match a 2812... I am sure with enough work you could get the RX-8 to go fast on any shock. I however have doubts that the guy that packed it in after a few events will be able to. At this point if FM made the car 1 sec faster he might be able to keep up with Joe based off of his past performance when he actually tried to run the RX-8.

We all know FM likes to talk, usually about how fast his buddies are. So I am sure we will hear about how fast he makes the RX-8 go but I doubt we will see him run it outside of a few local events.

RX-9er

I like talking about how fast my buddies are too, humblepie I guess. I only wish I beat them as often as mike does.

I can't even begin to tell you how many car sites I have read threads that go on and on and on about Twin Tube vs Monotube, Single vs Double, Degassed vs normal. Everyone has an opinion because they have won on that particular shock(ie Twin Tube, converted DA, Degassed etc) and sometimes the argument gets pretty ugly. What I have taken away is that on a stock car, low speed compression is KING. It may be a bandaid as it mimicks stiffer spring rates, but it is a huge one that really helps and the fact is, you can get this a limited number of places, through revalving a Koni Yellow, a Bilstein or going to something custom(DA etc). Rebound is a bandaid as well and does make the car more stiff and predictable but at the expense overall traction. Unlike compression, you can get this anywhere, OTS shocks, Koni Yellows(crank em up), Bilsteins(look at Miata R shocks) and all the other guys(tokico, AGX, etc).

I am not going to get into the specifics of monotube vs twin tube, but in an apples to apples comparison, monotubes are better(bilstein, koni 2800, penske etc) but not absolutely necessary.

The # thing that I see keeping fast drivers fast are car predictability/repeatability and the driver familiarity with that setup. At the end of the day you still have to drive the car and what fast guys like FM, Jason, mid-pack mike and TeamBaghead all have in common is that they have the shocks on their cars that they are comfortable driving at the limit in.

Flame away if you want, but Mike's solstice feels a whole hell of lot better then it did. Do I think it would be faster on koni yellows? Who cares, I will probably never know, I like the way it feels now. I will gaurentee this though, if somebody starts beating Ulllose every weekend in a RX-8, and the only difference between the cars are shocks and driver, he will be making some changes.

fastmike

Well said Kyle.

Jason: Making the 8 "fast on any shock" is not my goal.
Making the 8 FASTER than the fast ones is.
You can doubt than I can do it but that will just make me try harder. Growing up, people would tell me "you can't do that". Uh..wanna bet?
I am pretty easily baited into doing stuff. Andy gets me "going" all the time.

Yea...I really tried hard with the 8 for those 3 events not.

I mostly went to the Miata over the 8(besides not liking the 8) since I had something to prove in ES after all my ballyhooing and met my goal with that one.
The MiataR is a good choice in ES.
I might still be running that car if not for the SOl which I considered more "grown up".
Solstice is a given now.
The car will be plenty good and fun and competitive from now on and mine is working well for me. I don't do as well in Kevin's for whatever reason(s).

RX8 is a fun experiment. I will know pretty quickly if I got something going in the right direction.
I will likely share my damping curves/rates too. As long as everyone is nice to me.

But Jason is right, once my little experiment is done, it will be unlikely that you will see me much of me in BS.
You might see the shocks though!

FM

mwood

The RX8 is the second car I've autocrossed and the first that I've taken more than a dozen runs on non oem shocks (there was an infamous experiment with Penske DA's on my old Z06 )...so, I have no idea what I like or don't like...therefore, I'm all ears and looking forward to learning how people choose valving and what the implications are of changing.

I will say the setup ULLLLLLLLLLOSE has shared with me seems to be very, very good. It will be hard to improve on, I'd bet.

fastmike

If you haven't read the shock section of the link I put up on page 1, DG goes into much more detail of why he likes the Bilsteins. He says it much better than I can.
Here it is again:
http://farnorthracing.com/autocross_secrets.html

I think it is a combo of many things why I like the Bilsteins.
VERY high quality materials and very good designers and those dang things will do just about anything you ask of them on revalves without failing.
It's all oil and orfices and gas pressure but Bilstein seem to have it figured out for a cheap *** like myself.
Also, I have never had a Bilstein fail.(leak/break/change/whatever).
Damping a year after a rebuild will be the same in 99.99%+ of the time.

It is still amazing to me that I can literally draw a picture on a shock dyno print-out and write "do this" and presto! My shocks come back and they "do this".

Another thing I really like about Bilstein is that they are big into off road racing which really tests the durability of dampers. Can you say 500F degree oil? You learn some stuff when you are designing against that kind of abuse.

When I visited the shop in Poway CA, I was very impressed with the cleanliness of the place and the professionalism that I saw. Lots of microfiber towels protecting shock shafts and parts.

They are nice too. In the past, I have been treated with disrespect and poor customer service from some other "big name" shock companies so I went shopping with some new idea's(actually other's idea's that made sense to me/thanks Andy!) and came across the Bilsteins which seem to fit the bill for what I was looking for.
Others have been very nice to me along the way and I like doing business with those people and would help them out if they needed it and I was able to.

FM

Cooper47

Here's the deal.....Our next event is at Candlestick

If you're wooping up on everyone again after your second run you should take my car out with the Bilsteins installed and see how it feels.....I do not know how it's going to feel but I bet it's going to be quite a bit different then your fully compressed KONI's.

fastmike

You are correct Mid...uh..I mean Mike.

Cooper47: take your shocks when you get them and send them to Bilstein in Poway and have them revalved for your specific wants/needs.
Do you want maximum autox performance or some streetability?
What is your "style" of driving?
It will be the best $65 per shock that you will ever spend.
If you are scared of going "all out", you can easily find a happy medium.
Lots of concrete freeway expansion joints in your daily drive? You will notice them more if you go with a typical revalve.
FM

fastmike

Thanks...
Hey!If you stay off the cones, I see great things in your future.
You impressed me in SD.

ULLLOSE

iTrader: (1)

Yep, I will work on the driver just like I did in 2005 when they were all kicking my @ss.

It is a stock class car, you can do a lot more to slow a stock car down then you can to speed it up. The worst thing you can do imho is spend all your time fing with the car at events rather than driving it.

RX-9er

I totally agree, I know of some national champs that spend the big $$$$$$$$ on high end DAs, do some testing, Set em once and then never touch them again, Seriously.
I think thats why the bilsteins are a great fit for autoxing. Bilsteins come with a ton of rebound out of the box, just add some low speed compression front and rear(proportionately) and DRIVE. Its like those infomercials, Bilstein "set it and forget it"

Kyle

Cito

Am I wrong in thinking that ride height has something to do with center of gravity? And while static camber does not necessarily impact camber in motion, it seems that if the camber is closer to optimal at the beginning of a corner there would be a basic advantage to that. I believe the difference between a high riding RX8, like mine, and a low riding RX8 is anywhere between .5 and 1 degree. And that will make a difference. No doubt in my mind.

The Bilsteins might work, but this cheap fix is going to cost 360 bucks plus shipping to begin, 260 bucks plus shipping for the revalve, and repeat until the optimal is found. Konis can be had for 575 shipped. It could be argued that the Bilsteins have more potential, but until somebody demonstrates that and shares the recipe, the smart money is on the Konis.

What happens if it rains? Or, what if it is unseasonably warm or cold at Nationals? Even the "set it and forget it" crowd will be making adjustments in the case of climate issues--if they can. Adjustability will pay dividends then.