PedalFaster

rx8pilot, here's the original question again:

I did my best to answer that question as stated. If you have questions about the question's wording, take them up with the original poster, not me.

Steve

P.S. - Did I mention that I wrote the S2000 autocross setup FAQ?

XDEEDUBBX

Whenever BMI tests the RX8 besides the mazdaspeed video it doesn't do very well at Tsukuba...it seems only Takuya from the BMI staff is the only one that praises the car

John V

iTrader: (1)

I've driven a basically stock S2000 (front bar and hoosiers only) and a basically stock RX-8 (DA Konis and Hoosiers only). The RX-8 felt much more tractable at low RPM. Greg's S2000 would bog horribly unless I launched the thing at 6k like he told me to. Worse, when I did bog it, the clutch would be very soft on the 1-2 shift. Never had that problem in Clyde's car. The torque curve felt much more flat.

The S2000 had excellent steering, great brakes, and adequate power once it was really revving. The RX-8 had those features, too, but you could tell it was hauling around a bit more weight and was more softly sprung. I liked the RX-8 motor a lot more (sound, powerband, NVH).

Overall the RX-8 was the one that put the silly grin on my face and that's why it's the one that I would pick if I had to spend the dollars on one. I have no doubt that a properly prepped stock-class S2000 would wax a properly prepped stock-class RX-8 at an autocross or or on the track. Doesn't matter to me. The RX-8 was just more fun. No idea why.

I don't understand why it always has to be a pissing match. They're both great cars. Get the one you prefer. In a perfect world, I'd have both I suppose.

Dan_DCDezign

I had an S2000 before the RX8, and it was certainly a more entertaining car to drive, and was certainly quicker tha the RX8 although on paper the RX8 is marginally faster. I do find however that the RX8 handles much better on the round than the S which had an iritation will to oversteer. The RX8 is much more comfortable to go on a long journey, where as the S was MUCH better on fuel even when driven in the V-Tec 70% of the time. The RX8 cabin is a much nicer place to be, but I miss the S, and I will REALLY miss it when the summer comes!

Ike

Based on my experience with the S2K I'd say that might be a product of the clutch just being more worn or maybe an aftermarket clutch. Neither the RX-8 or S2K are the easiest cars to launch, but I was able to get a nice spin and launch on the S2K I drove with what I recall being a 4k-5k launch, it certainly wasn't 6k. I also noticed that wheel hop was never present with the S2K, and just going by others account that's not the case with the RX-8.

RX8pilot, give it up man, this thread is in competition racing, he wanted to know about the cars on a track and posted it here for that reason.

jowettw

i didn't really trust the BM videos - i think BM is a biased production.

check out the videos in this thread. it's from 2 friends in an italian road race track with video cameras mounted in their respective RX-8 and S2000 - AWESOME footage. i'm not sure if the link is dead or not though - it's relatively old. if they are dead, drop me a PM and i'll send them to you some how.

the result is no surprise, but it sounds like this is what you're looking for.

i can't wait to get on a racetrack myself.

124Spider

Neat videos. The RX-8 driver seemed to be a much better driver than the S2000 driver; unlike the S2k driver, the RX-8 driver had clean lines, kept his revs up and didn't brake too early. The speeds seemed very low (assuming speedos read in kph), but it was a curvy track.

Yeah, the racetrack is a blast, and it largely eliminated, for me, any small inclination I might have had to do stupid things on public roads. There simply is nothing you can do on a public road, anything like safely, which will rival the thrill of the track, and it's pretty safe at the track if the track day organizer has taken appropriate precautions, and you don't outdrive your abilities.

John V

iTrader: (1)

It was definitely a stock clutch. Maybe it was worn out.

My point was about the complete lack of torque down low. The RX-8 at least has SOME. :p Come off the cam in an S2k and you have nothing. The RX-8 will still make an effort to pull you out of the corner. Either one makes my M3 feel like a rocketship.

I would really like to drive one of the cars with good shocks that Wynveen, Saini or Hui have/had. Mr. Pedalfaster tells me it's a whole different ballgame.

Rotator

IkeWRX said it best
Answer - S2000 - no contest.
Are there better track cars than the S2000 for the money? SURE.
Why not open it right up and compare the merits of cars that will trounce an S2000 for the same amount? EVO? STi?
If you are going to have a trailer car - why not just get a shifter kart and be done with it?

RX8-TX

I'd like to believe the S2K has the upper hand no matter what track we are talking about.

RX8-TX

They should modify the roof on the 8...a la Viper coupe.

RX8-TX

je...they were still Jap Spec cars....slightly modified. :p

124Spider

Darn, and I liked your first post so much....

This is, of course, nonsense. You "come of the cam" in an S2k at 6000 rpm. My S2k has as much torque from 3000 rpm up as the RX-8 has anywhere, and more from 6,000 up than an RX-8 has anywhere. On the track (as opposed to autox), I am almost never out of VTEC anyway, so that's pretty irrelevant. And it is just as easy to "bog" our RX-8 as our S2000.

John V

iTrader: (1)

Pace yourself. You can declare anything you want, but that doesn't void my experience. Apparently I need to e-mail Greg and tell him his S2k is broken. It's possible!

All I can say is I've driven both cars. I bogged the launch on the S2k several times during practice runs at the NEDivs. "Bogged" meaning I dumped the clutch at 4k instead of the 6k he suggested. No wheelspin. It was painful waiting for the car to rev from the 2k it "hooked up" at until it came on the cam.

The RX-8 had enough torque that with a "moderate" launch it would spin the tires and stay in a reasonably torquey part of the powerband.

Maybe Clyde's RX-8 is particularly strong and Greg's S2k is particularly weak, but I'm not making this up.

PedalFaster

This again comes back to whether this is a question about street driving or competition driving. In the latter case, the comparison of off-cam power (or off-lobe, or whatever it is in a rotary ) isn't nearly as important since you will very rarely find yourself out of the powerband.

As an aside, though, the initial question was "which will handle better?", whereas the answers have tended towards "which will be faster?" On the handling front, both cars have their weaknesses in stock form. The '00-'03 S2000s are fairly nervous at the limit due to excessive amounts of rear bump steer; they can be driven really quickly, but a lot of people get spooked by the looseness. This problem's fixed to a large extent in the '04-'05 cars; Honda arguably actually overcompensated, as the cars are delivered with zero camber in front, which makes them somewhat pushy. On the bright side, all S2000s are fairly stiff, have good body control / damping, and have unbelievablely good turn-in.

I have much less experience in RX-8s, but from my seat time and talking to other experienced drivers who have driven the car, I'd say it's considerably more forgiving in stock form than at least the early S2000s. Its failing is its lack of body control -- soft springing and damping means it tends to move around a lot in corners and over bumps, and in repeated transitions (e.g. slaloms), it can be a handful when it gets completely unsettled.

The S2000 has a definite learning curve to it -- I think most people would go faster right after jumping into an RX-8 than they would in an S2000. Give an experienced driver time in the S2000, though, and they'll outrun the RX-8.

Steve
- looking forward to the first West Coast B Stock confrontation in under five weeks

Imp

I'm looking forward to see what the Tour in El Paso in 3 weeks looks like.

--kC

PedalFaster

Part of the problem is that you guys are talking about different generations of the car -- s2k has an '04 which has 10% more displacement than the earlier cars.

Having said that, yes, to launch an S2000 aggressively, you need to either dump the clutch above 6000 rpm or slip it significantly.

Steve

124Spider

I have no problem with you reporting your experience with a particular S2000, but you reported as general fact: "Come off the cam in an S2k and you have nothing." That is pure nonsense, which is why I called it pure nonsense. Look at the dyno sheets for a reasonable set of RX-8s and S2000s, same year car, and you will see that. Sure you can find exceptions, but it's simply not reasonable to make a general statement based on that (especially given how the S2000 has been wildly successful at autocross, nationally, competing in the same class as the RX-8 last year; the S2000 got bumped up a class this year). Head-to-head, in autocross or on a race track, nobody would choose a stock RX-8 over a stock S2000, unless you wanted to bring three of your friends with you, of course. That's not to say that the RX-8 is anything but a fine car, but a typical stock RX-8 is not a better performer on any track than a typical stock S2000.

jsh1120

This gives me an idea for a whole new racing series, Quad Racing. A crew of one driver and three passengers. Similar to bobsled. I'm thinking the RX-8 would be fairly competitive.

124Spider

Yeah, right up until someone invites the brand new M3. :p

John V

iTrader: (1)

Call it what you want. I'll still disagree, at least if you're talking about a pre-'04 car.

Now, as Steve posted, it's possible we're comparing different years. I've never driven the '04 S"2200" so I can't comment on that.

Looking at dyno curves, it appears as though the RX-8 makes a bit more torque down below 4000 RPM than the '01-'03 S2k. Around 10ft-lbs. "in the noise" as far as I'm concerned... not enough samples to know for sure, and I've never seen the two cars back to back on the dyno.

Gearing is the big difference here, S2k. The RX-8's overall gearing in first gear is 16.7:1, and Clyde's weighed 2880lbs. Greg's car is right around 2800 IIRC. The final drive is 4.1:1 with a 3.133 first gear. That gives overall gearing of 12.85:1. I'll grant you that the RX-8's tires were marginally taller, negating that gearing effect somewhat (but IMO not significantly - you do the math, 275/35/18 versus 245/40/16) but given the same torque, approximately the same weight and 16% better gearing, I'll give the edge in low-end torque to the RX-8.

Now, I never denied that the S2000 would be faster at a track, autocross or drag race. It certainly will be! It's lighter, for one thing, and has much better body control. I wouldn't have written my letter to the SEB last year if I thought the RX-8 were as quick on the autocross course. I'm just debating your torque comments here.

rowteree

In my opinion, numbers are very similar on both cars, but even coming from a 8 owner myself, I still think the s2000 is the overall better car. Around the track the s2k will still have the upper hand no matter what due to its weight and superb handling and not to mention the 200 horses at the rear wheels ,but the rx8 shines in its price and the +2 more seats than the s2k. s2k is the last sports car i would think of buying because of the many other choices. For 32k+ I would go for a fugly STi and get the stupid speed issue over with, but for the overall better sports car rx-8 hands down. 2 very similar cars but in the end its all about personal choice. My 2 cents

khtm

I was thinking...in Canada the S2K costs about $10K more than the RX-8

So now...if you could buy an 8 and put $10K worth of mods in it...which would be the better car (performance-wise, on a track)? I don't race cars but I don't think it's a stretch to say the RX-8 would be.

Plus, at the end of the day you have a car that's actually FUNCTIONAL (4 seats, bigger trunk, DSC/TCS, etc.)

Something to think about...

124Spider

You will have to include a very large can-opener, to take the top down, however. :D

As many have said many times, these are very different cars; no amount of money will give the same driving experience in an RX-8 as in an S2000, and no amount of money will make an S2000 as versatile as an RX-8. Each person has to decide for himself or herself what's important in deciding which car to buy, then drive all candidates, and make their decision.

Or, of course, you could get both. :p

Imp

Yeah... and you can go out and buy a VERY good shifter kart for 1/2-1/4 that price with TONNES of spares.

Once you start talking about modifying cars.. you throw everything out the window.

I was looking at a used S2K or a new 8 for 2005 competiton. I think the 8 can be close to the S2k in terms of scooting around a course. But that's just me. I'm crazy for thinking that I think... but it's fun to be crazy.