RX-8 to DSP???
06-14-2009, 10:53 AM
#52
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I actually feel like the frankengolf fits the DSP mold better than the RX-8, mainly due to its' struts, high CG, and poor weight distribution. It's a regular car made fast, rather than a purpose-bred sportscar.
06-22-2009, 08:42 PM
#54
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Anyone happen to notice the pax results from the Washington Pro? 
Yes, it was a Pro (magnifying the launch advantage) and, yes, the field didn't have the representation that will be seen at Lincoln, but I think we have just seen another data point established re: awd cars don't play well with 2wd cars...and the car that pax'ed #1 at DC is just one of a number of very serious Subie builds coming of age in ESP trim presently.
I know Madarash, Botkin et al are incredibly good drivers and their cars highly developed, but I think the status quo in ESP is going to be upset, once again, by a "rally car" and there are going to be a good number of pissed off ESP participants, post Lincoln. The point is that it is time to carve out an AWDSP class and leave BSP for the RX8, S2K, C4 etc and leave DSP for more sedan like 2wd cars, imho...
Yes, it was a Pro (magnifying the launch advantage) and, yes, the field didn't have the representation that will be seen at Lincoln, but I think we have just seen another data point established re: awd cars don't play well with 2wd cars...and the car that pax'ed #1 at DC is just one of a number of very serious Subie builds coming of age in ESP trim presently.
I know Madarash, Botkin et al are incredibly good drivers and their cars highly developed, but I think the status quo in ESP is going to be upset, once again, by a "rally car" and there are going to be a good number of pissed off ESP participants, post Lincoln. The point is that it is time to carve out an AWDSP class and leave BSP for the RX8, S2K, C4 etc and leave DSP for more sedan like 2wd cars, imho...
06-22-2009, 09:05 PM
#55
Need I point out to you there is a spec AWD SP class, it is BSP
, and there is no way they could make numbers without the 2 wheelers. But you keep dreaming.
P.S. the $hit storm over the ESP WRX has been in the works for years, this year will just seal the deal. Got to keep the white trash classes pure, so out with the jap crap.
I think if the WRX is in the top 5 in ESP (which could be done with an FS car) it will get the shaft. The good thing is unless it is in this July FT they can't do anything till 2011.
06-22-2009, 09:14 PM
#56
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Don't expect much love here for this one... This just keeps the RX-8 as an SP alsoran.
Need I point out to you there is a spec AWD SP class, it is BSP, and there is no way they could make numbers without the 2 wheelers.
But you keep dreaming.
P.S. the $hit storm over the ESP WRX has been in the works for years, this year will just seal the deal. Got to keep the white trash classes pure, so out with the jap crap. I think if the WRX is in the top 5 in ESP (which could be done with an FS car) it will get the shaft. The good thing is unless it is in this July FT they can't do anything till 2011.
Need I point out to you there is a spec AWD SP class, it is BSP
, and there is no way they could make numbers without the 2 wheelers. But you keep dreaming.
P.S. the $hit storm over the ESP WRX has been in the works for years, this year will just seal the deal. Got to keep the white trash classes pure, so out with the jap crap.
I think if the WRX is in the top 5 in ESP (which could be done with an FS car) it will get the shaft. The good thing is unless it is in this July FT they can't do anything till 2011.BSP makes better numbers without the rally cars, so using it as "the specAWD SP" class makes no sense. Give the awd cars their own class and see if they can make numbers. (cue broken record) "AWD has a unique set of dynamic capabilities that don't translate to the 2WD envelope"...which is why every road racing organization either outlaws them, penalizes them into uncompetitiveness or carves them out on their own. We don't have the capability to handicap cars in Solo, really, so carve 'em out.
And I'm not saying that "white trash" classes should be protected. But, we've seen this movie before (2005 in ESP) and we already know how it ends...the net result is that not only will we be left with the current minimal interest in BSP, we are going to recreate it in ESP...so, this movie ends up being "the sequel"
Last edited by mwood; 06-22-2009 at 09:19 PM.
06-22-2009, 09:23 PM
#57
I agree, what I've suggested isn't going to play with those that want to take an entirely unknown entity, the RX8 optimized for SP, and plug it into an instantly competitive (and possible overdog) position...but, ex the Evo, I think it is possible we'd at least get a couple of really developed SP RX8's, which would allow enough hard information to make a more informed SP classing decision for the '8, without f-ing up a well subscribed DSP class.
BSP makes better numbers without the rally cars, so using it as "the" rally car class makes no sense. Give the awd cars their own class and see if they can make numbers. That's how it goes in all other forms of racing. (cue broken record) "AWD has a unique set of dynamic capabilities that don't translate to the 2WD envelope"...
And I'm not saying that "white trash" classes should be protected. But, we've seen this movie before (2005 in ESP) and we already know how it ends...the net result is that not only will we be left with the current minimal interest in BSP, we are going to recreate it in ESP...so, this movie ends up being "the sequel"
BSP makes better numbers without the rally cars, so using it as "the" rally car class makes no sense. Give the awd cars their own class and see if they can make numbers. That's how it goes in all other forms of racing. (cue broken record) "AWD has a unique set of dynamic capabilities that don't translate to the 2WD envelope"...
And I'm not saying that "white trash" classes should be protected. But, we've seen this movie before (2005 in ESP) and we already know how it ends...the net result is that not only will we be left with the current minimal interest in BSP, we are going to recreate it in ESP...so, this movie ends up being "the sequel"
All a rally class does is make the Evo guys happy, that makes for about four drivers. The Sti guys will still bitch, as will every other AWD guy that is tossed in there because they are to "fast" for ESP. These guys already have STU/STX/BSP, seems like a fair number of classes for them to play in.
Last edited by ULLLOSE; 06-22-2009 at 09:35 PM.
06-22-2009, 09:42 PM
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Damn, how slow of cars do the ESP guys need to be happy? The WRX is no match for the StiEvo, but it is still to much for pony cars that have done no devlopment work in years... The same fbody that won ten years ago is still the top dog. Oh, I know, none of the pony boys wanted to build a new car in the last ten years because they knew the WRX was going to beat them when it came out.
All a rally class does is make the Evo guys happy, that makes for about four drivers. The Sti guys will still bitch, as will every other AWD guy that tossed in there because they are to "fast" for ESP. These guys already have STU/STX/BSP, seems like a fair number of classes for them to play in.
All a rally class does is make the Evo guys happy, that makes for about four drivers. The Sti guys will still bitch, as will every other AWD guy that tossed in there because they are to "fast" for ESP. These guys already have STU/STX/BSP, seems like a fair number of classes for them to play in.
A rally car class, short term, may just "make the Evo guys happy"...but, you could make the same argument about BS (just designed to make the RX8...errr...370Z guys happy) or any other class that has an obvious top choice. The point is, just as the intro of the 370Z may change the top dog in BS, the same would happen in AWDSP...who knows, it might be an Audi, or a VW, or a Subie, that next enjoys favor. If the class ends up being just a few cars, then it isn't a viable class. As it stands, it is still just those few rally cars playing in SP, but they are currently doing it (arguably) to the detriment of a long standing SP class (BSP) and we may (may!) see ESP effected in the same way. How is this good for Solo?
09-16-2009, 12:54 PM
#59
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Data from Solo Nats...
The following are the winning times for different classes at the recently concluded '09 Solo Nationals on the concrete at the Lincoln Airpark. All classes had dry conditions on their two run days.
Tues/Wed
DSP* = 117.542
CS* = 118.551
Thurs/Fri
ESP* = 114.870
FSP = 117.753
BS = 117.860
AS = 116.664
BSP = 113.755
*These classes ran in the 1st heat
So looking at this raw data, FSP and BS nearly straight-timed DSP. However, DSP and ESP have historically been similar in speed, so ESP's cumulative time would be a better indication of how DSP should have performed if the class had run later in the week.
Looking at the data this way, an A-stock corvette/S2000/Evo, etc. would need to find another 3 seconds to be at the top of BSP, while an RX-8 would need to find just over 4 seconds. However, an RX-8 would need to drop a similar 3 seconds to be at the top of DSP/ESP.
I'm open to input. I plan to revive the sccaforums thread with this data later this week and hopefully get a letter writing campaign going in the coming weeks.
Tues/Wed
DSP* = 117.542
CS* = 118.551
Thurs/Fri
ESP* = 114.870
FSP = 117.753
BS = 117.860
AS = 116.664
BSP = 113.755
*These classes ran in the 1st heat
So looking at this raw data, FSP and BS nearly straight-timed DSP. However, DSP and ESP have historically been similar in speed, so ESP's cumulative time would be a better indication of how DSP should have performed if the class had run later in the week.
Looking at the data this way, an A-stock corvette/S2000/Evo, etc. would need to find another 3 seconds to be at the top of BSP, while an RX-8 would need to find just over 4 seconds. However, an RX-8 would need to drop a similar 3 seconds to be at the top of DSP/ESP.
I'm open to input. I plan to revive the sccaforums thread with this data later this week and hopefully get a letter writing campaign going in the coming weeks.
Last edited by chiketkd; 09-16-2009 at 12:56 PM.
09-16-2009, 11:50 PM
#63
I'm actuallly referring to RX-8 vs. BWM, as opposed to RX-8 vs. AWD, since the main deabte over on SCCA forums seems to be that the DNA of the RX-8 makes it a BMW killer. Seems like this argument would apply equally well to STX vs. DSP, although I realize the SP rules can shift the balance (for example, if one car can more easily handle huge wheels & tires allowed by the SP ruleset).
09-17-2009, 10:41 AM
#64
Row faster, I hear banjos
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I would think that the E36/E46 BMW's would be able to run as much tire as an RX-8. I highly doubt that 315 A6's could fit an RX-8 w/o cutting the fenders. Most RX-8's would probably run a 285 or 295 A6 on a 18x10 or 18x10.5 wheel.
09-20-2009, 12:09 PM
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What I think you'll see in DSP are more Impreza builds...that is the car for the class.
Ben did an amazing thing this year in his Merkur and I was really, really happy to see such a deserving guy get the jacket, but it all came down to his driving skills, I believe...oh yeah, plus the Sias tune on the ECU which finally got that turbo 4 running strong. In any case, the Impreza is the one for DSP...as it also is (WRX) for ESP.
Ben did an amazing thing this year in his Merkur and I was really, really happy to see such a deserving guy get the jacket, but it all came down to his driving skills, I believe...oh yeah, plus the Sias tune on the ECU which finally got that turbo 4 running strong. In any case, the Impreza is the one for DSP...as it also is (WRX) for ESP.
Last edited by mwood; 09-20-2009 at 12:26 PM.
12-23-2009, 07:54 PM
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I take it no one has seen the latest Fastrack?
STREET PREPARED
- The following class listing change proposals are being published for member comment:
- Move from DSP to FSP: Fiat 124 (’66-’74) (ref. 09-498)
- Move from BSP to DSP: Datsun 240Z & 260Z & 280 Z. Also revise current BSP listing to “Datsun 280ZX/280ZX Turbo
(‘79-’83) (ref. 09-673)
- Add new listing in DSP: “Honda CRX Si & Civic Si (’84-’87)” and move to DSP on one line ”Honda Civic & CRX 1500
I absolutely LOVE the early Z cars...2100lbs, 250hp, and 275's...
It'll never happen, but, if it does, it would seem to increase the odds of the RX8 being more seriously considered for DSP
STREET PREPARED
- The following class listing change proposals are being published for member comment:
- Move from DSP to FSP: Fiat 124 (’66-’74) (ref. 09-498)
- Move from BSP to DSP: Datsun 240Z & 260Z & 280 Z. Also revise current BSP listing to “Datsun 280ZX/280ZX Turbo
(‘79-’83) (ref. 09-673)
- Add new listing in DSP: “Honda CRX Si & Civic Si (’84-’87)” and move to DSP on one line ”Honda Civic & CRX 1500
I absolutely LOVE the early Z cars...2100lbs, 250hp, and 275's...
It'll never happen, but, if it does, it would seem to increase the odds of the RX8 being more seriously considered for DSP
Last edited by mwood; 12-23-2009 at 08:49 PM.
12-23-2009, 10:09 PM
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...with good reason.
DSP this year was one of the most interesting of the SP classes. My pal Martinez wins in a Merkur, the de Los Reyes Impreza shows speed and the usual suspects in BMW's continue to go fast...diversity and lots of pretty equal cars...so, the response is to introduce a forty year old, two seat sports car ringer and a twenty five year old, sub 1500lb mini-ringer?
Amazing
DSP this year was one of the most interesting of the SP classes. My pal Martinez wins in a Merkur, the de Los Reyes Impreza shows speed and the usual suspects in BMW's continue to go fast...diversity and lots of pretty equal cars...so, the response is to introduce a forty year old, two seat sports car ringer and a twenty five year old, sub 1500lb mini-ringer?
Amazing
03-22-2010, 04:45 PM
#73
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How about CSP?
From the April 2010 Fastrack
http://scca.com/documents/Fastrack/1...april-solo.pdf
From the April 2010 Fastrack
http://scca.com/documents/Fastrack/1...april-solo.pdf
- The **** is seeking member input regarding a group of reclassifications which are currently in a preliminary evaluation stage. These potential changes are as follows:
- Move from BSP to CSP: BMW M Coupe and Roadster, BMW Z3, Datsun/Nissan Z cars, Honda S2000, Mazda RX8
- Move from BSP to CSP: BMW M Coupe and Roadster, BMW Z3, Datsun/Nissan Z cars, Honda S2000, Mazda RX8
03-22-2010, 05:18 PM
#75
To me, BSB/CSP is a fire/frying pan analogy. I don't think the RX-8 has a chance in CSP. Maybe a slightly better chance than BSP, but not much.
Same wheel/tire package as the NC but more weight. Less torque out of the corners too, if I am not mistaken.
Same wheel/tire package as the NC but more weight. Less torque out of the corners too, if I am not mistaken.