You keep thinking that.

 

The Tornado really works!

 

Thanks for reminding me...

All I want is one for Christmas is one shot at the South course with a smaller front bar...

 

So is this true- for a more technical course, the bigger bar would be better, but if there are alot of sweepers and high speed turns , then the smaller bar is better?

Ronnie

 

GAH! What misinformation is spreading here...

-this thread is specifically about running in B-stock, and assumes competitive racing on autox courses on r-compound tires, maybe with aftermarket shocks.

-you can't run a rear bar in BS

-the RB bar is about 208% stiffer than stock. I think the MS bar is something like 30% stiffer.

-sway bars add to the spring rate when the suspension components are in opposite movement. When the left a-arms move up, and the right a-arms move down, the sway bar is adding to the spring rate on the compressed side. This is something of an over-simplification, but its good enough.

-in transitional situations, slaloms and the like, the sway bar helps

-in sweepers, the swaybar couples the wheels together, which can unload or upset the tires when a bumb is encountered on one side. Once this happens, some traction can be lost.

-the fact that the guys on the RB bar were 1-2 after day one of Nat'l should say that the RB is not uncompetitive. Is it the best setup? That's still debatable, as we've only run these cars for 1 year of solo2.

-most handling problems can be solved by changing your driving style. The RB front bar requires less trailbraking and much more careful speed control when entering turns to avoid tragic push.

-a bigger front bar will increase the tendency of the car to understeer, especially in sweepers.

-all parts of the setup must be looked at in whole. The RB bar, in combinations with tire pressures, shock valving, and alignment may result in a very fast setup. Or not.

 

Surprises me that the RB bar would be that fast at nationals. All I can relate is my experience with this setup. Again, this only applies with the konis. On stock shocks I liked the bar.

With the RB bar installed I couldn't get on the gas exiting turns until way later than I liked. The bar requires massive trailbraking to set up a line through a turn unless you want to give up both turn entry and exit.

On slaloms and transitions, the inability to rotate the car made it very difficult to stay ahead and execute good late apexes. Too much gas and the car would push beyond the apex getting you behind for the next one.

On the stock bar (with additional hole drilled) the car is loose but fast. Coming from a miata, this surprised me. I was able to be much more aggressive without the rear end coming around. A miata set up this way would be spin city, but not the RX-8.

Overall, I really can't imagine a course where I would want to run this bar. I hate to say it, but the fact for me that the car is no fun to drive with it installed is 2 strikes against it regardless of times. A car that refuses to rotate is no fun.

 

Exact opposite of what I found. When I switched to the RB bar, I couldn't trail brake at all. I know at least a couple other people have said the same thing.

You may want to check your alignment. The stock suspension setup has mild understeer in the dry.

I agree that a loose car is more fun. But we all know that sideways isn't the fast way around. There are a lot of fast cars out there that run a setup biased towards understeer. There are advantages either way, but one is not always faster than the other.

 

I don't understand what you're saying. Was the car so stiff up front you couldn't get it to rotate with trailbrake? or something else. When I said "massive trailbrake" that's what I meant. You really had to unload the rear to get any rotation at all.

And yes, I understand the difference between loose and fast. That's why I said loose AND fast.

The car is loose off the gas and neutral under power because I like it that way. Yes I could get mild understeer if I wanted but I don't because this car doesn't need it to keep the nose pointed in the right direction.

 

Yup, couldn't get it to rotate. Trying to trail-brake usually just led to understeer with the RB bar, where I did not have that problem with the stock bar. My slalom and transitional speeds went up some w/ the RB bar over the stock bar. I should mention that I ran on Dunlop SSR's 225 (because they are cheap), not the requisite Kuhmos/Hoosiers. Almost neutral handling came at 44 psi front, 52+ rear!

 

I dont think there is much to debate.... The north course was the best case for a transition course as one sweeper was removed before we ran it and the other had a wet entry. The rest of the course was very dirty and it was also very cool. Anyone with a loose car was playing pitch and catch at every turn, a tight car was the way to go, guys that took chances were near the top. Both Eric and Phillip did a great job to take the top spots the first day.
However it is hard to argue that when the conditions were warm and dry and the course had a good balance of sweepers and slaloms the RB cars were over a second off the pace, I dont think Eric and Phillip forgot how to drive overnight, just a matter of that big bar killing them in the long turns. While cars with MS, OE and TRX8 swaybars were all within a tenth.

 

I didn't realize until this thread just how stiff the RB sway bars were - 208%. I don't think any of the others come close to that. Maybe the Tanabe?

 

I believe it, the stock bar is puny in comparision

 

Stock bar is 27mm(I think) and the RB is 32mm.

 

That is right... It also has to do with how thick the wall of the bar is. RB is a thicker wall than OE.

 

Isn't the mazdaspeed bar 27mm , just like stock, but it has thicker walls. Making it just stiff enough for some needs.

 

Just out of curiosity, where is the best place to aquire a MS front bar? Most of the places that I have seen them for sale, it is a front and rear package.

 

I figured you could buy the mazdaspeed front sway from the www.mazdamotorsports.com site, but I just looked and didn't see it. Maybe you could send them an e-mail.

Ronnie

 

27.2 +.5mm thicker wall.... Makes it about 15% stiffer. Mazda Motorsports does sell it. Cost alot for such a small change. If I did not already have one I think I would just go for a drilled stock bar, almost as stiff.