rotor-te-rex

FastMike you said you weren't sure what I wanted. Here are sample rules from another forum. If you operate on the assumption that the stock boys don't wanna give up their expensive toys, and STU is too full blown for the technically challenged.....there could be a middle ground of minor mods halfway between. Below I show A Stock cars, but you could just as easily insert B and C Stock and give the asterisk to the B Stock cars.

XX.X Anti-sway bars

A. Same rules as STS, STS2, STX, and STU

B. Exception: Automobiles identified with an adjacent asterisk in the ST1 through ST5 class listing must adhere to 13.7 in stock category rules.(front sway bar change only)

XX.X Wheels

A. Rim width: maximum width is standard, plus .5 inch. Standard width is permitted. Exception: Cars identified with an adjacent asterisk in the ST1 through ST5 class listing must use standard width wheels.

B. Rim diameter: standard +/- one inch. Standard diameter is permitted.

C. Rim offset: As installed (including wheel spacers if applicable) wheel offset shall deviate no more than +/- 10 mm from a standard wheel for the car. The resultant change in track dimensions is allowed.

D. Rim weight: Wheels must equal or exceed weight listed in table XX.X for the applicable wheel width and diameter.

SAMPLE CLASS LISTING (showing most competitive cars):

ST2

BMW

M Coupe and Roadster ('01+)

M3 (E46)

M5 ('04+)

Z4

Chevrolet

Camaro SS ('96+)

Corvette C4 ('84-'96)*

Corvette ZR-1*

Honda

S2000 ('00-'03)*

S2000 ('04+)*

Mitsubishi

Evolution VIII ('03+)

Evo SD

Pontiac

Solstice turbo

Porsche

Boxster ('05+)

Boxster S*

Boxster non-S ('97+)

Saturn

Sky Turbo

Subaru

WRX STi

rotor-te-rex

But you are a mid-pack driver, too......especially on street tires that you couldn't get a grasp on last year.

ULLLOSE

iTrader: (1)

So many problems with this I am not sure where to start...

First off your plan will upset the balance of the most diverse stock class in solo. We have seen wins from the C4, BoxsterS, 993 911, STI and S2000. You propose to give the E46 M3, which is competitive now as one was 2nd at the SD 06' tour and both Tunnell and Braun have trophied in one, wider wheels which will allow 285 front tires plus a rear bar. You also propose to give the StiEvo wheels and swaybars even though the Sti has won in AS this year. Then you go on to give the same allowance to the SolSky even though one has not yet turned a wheel in competition. This brings up the next problem, if a mid packer is the first to get one and it looks like it needs wheels and a rear bar you give it to them only to have a top driver get into the car at natls and kill the class, don't think it wont happen. That is the same thing that plays out in club racing touring classes right now.

All you have done is driven up the cost with Cole Stock. Now my stock wheels are useless because they wont be as fast as the 1/2" wider 10mm offset custom ones. Or in the case of the StiEvo now I have to chuck my 17X8s for 18X8.5s so I can run 285s. Then I have to buy a rear swaybar. Oh where does it end.

TeamRX8

iTrader: (25)

LOL, whole lotta suckers sucked into the Cole-Blackhole at the speed of light

NoCones

2 years ago actually.

Yep, I've finished midpack before...many times...ooh you hurt me bad. I've also trophied at Nationals, won a ProSolo (that GH guy was 4th, so not exactly a weak field), and have trophied at maybe 5 or so other national events. How've you done, oh great critic of autocross resumes?

And even if I am "mid-pack," I'm not the one complaining for a rule change to help me finish higher...*that* was my point, but, as usual, it seems you missed it. Shocking development.

Now let's finish this thread off right with a discussion of how beautiful and accomplished our families are and how we have animals that train on frictionless rollers.

Bryan

NoCones

yeah, but if adjust it 2 secs for the R tires, 0.5 for the DA's, and 0.5 for the front swaybar...then pax it, it's really only the speed of sound...and cheaper to boot...you snobby, elitist, millionaire, SCCA status-quo protecting jerk

Cole

Imp

ULLLOSE

iTrader: (1)

FM you need to look beyond the NW... The Limited Tree Hugger Edition Sti, sold only in the NW, is a bit over weight with heated seats and Starbucks machine in the trunk. In the rest of the USA they have more power and less weight than the C4.

Imp

Instead of selecting random events to try and prove your point... how about looking at the whole season to date for all those regions you selected? You know... like I did to your events?

Just picking ONE event from many through different clubs is NOT a representative sample.

I have a blue pen. That means everyone wants blue pens because some people use them! Blue pens should be the only pens that can be used!

--kC

rotor-te-rex

That's just a snapshot sample (you did note I used about the same timeframe for all regions...no picking best results) of what occurs every month in those regions.....and many others to a lesser but growing extent.

If lots of folks are using blue pens (Hoosier/Kumho) and lots are using black pens and trend towards those pens is increasing (street tires), I'm not getting why only one color should be supported by National rules-makers.....unless you heavily mod your car.

rotor-te-rex

Methinks you missed the point that this is not a stock replacement.....it is an alternate form of ST class midway between stock and full-blown ST. We could continue to proliferate the latter and have more street-tire duplicates of SP, or we could use minor mods to combine a few stock class cars to actually offer a cheaper alternative than stock. Recall that I said you could change the example cars to BS and CS cars and give the asterisk to the B boys. Competitive advantage to CS to catch up! Stock was supposed to be the hands-off class that has migrated to anything but.

However, I know you guys who spent $2 grand+ on your wheels and other toys shouldn't have to give em up. But for the rest of us unwilling to make such a "commitment," an alternative clean-sheet approach could help a whole bunch of technically-challenged, highly enthusiastic formerly stock autocrossers on a budget. Add the 255 mm limit on tires like we do in other ST classes. If you are real brave, make it a spec tire class!!

And even if you did this for a single class like my A Stock example, purposely giving too much advantage to underdog cars would prevent the same old top dogs from dominating multiple classes. Sure would be cool to see a Solstice GXP smoke a 911!

ULLLOSE

iTrader: (1)

Where on earth did you ever get the idea stock class meant a stock car? Nascar is called a stock car also, so what. Stock is a prep level.

It is still going to cost someone more money. If you want to use the BS-CS that is fine. So I guess you mean all the BS cars run 100% stock and the CS guys now have to buy bigger than stock wheels which will cost more money and a pair of swaybars. So I see where this helps YOU but it does nothing for the rest of us.

rotor-te-rex

Yeah, but I betcha you'd be complaining if the rules FORCED you to use street tires to run competitively. Watcha gonna do now recondo. Uh oh, you gotta run with all those regional scrubs now, and they can almost keep up. OH NO MR BILL.

I don't mind losing to talent. I do object to losing to fellow mid-packers who can afford stupidly expensive tires....many time cuz they've got fewer commitments at home.

rotor-te-rex

Like you??

I want you to know I hold no grudges for not letting me have that codrive.....even though I was the sole driver to respond for a while.....and there was that eerie silence passing for too much work. Must have made you nervous. Oh you would have beat me handily.....but not by the margins many wish.

Must have been that time you ran your Z06 on street tires at our regional event and I was within 4.5 seconds on a minute-long high-speed course in my street-tired SVT Contour.

I kept thinking, he doesn't look like he's going very fast.

rotor-te-rex

So we aren't supposed to have a class for truly stock cars or stock with easy mods? Is this the Modified Sports Car Club of America? MODSCCA? What about guys like mwood who lease a car and don't want to do lots of mods. Then there are guys like me without a mechanical bone in my body....but it never kept me from flying helicopters or driving mid-pack fast. People don't show up at their first event with R-tires, SSR competitions, DA shocks, and different front sway bars and wild alignments.

What is cheaper for the Solstice driver: $500 SSR competitions and $300 295/35 Hoosiers or cheaper 17 x 8.5" wheels with wheel weight limited by a table, and 255/40-17 Falkens at $125. Kind of a no brainer. Gotta be cheaper for the new MX-5 to run 16" tires/wheels too. I assure you that I would be driving 17 x 8" wheels to exploit those cheap Falkens!!!

BTW, I added a third paragraph to my original "methinks" response above.

ULLLOSE

iTrader: (1)

It is the Sports Car Club of American, not the Stock Cole Club of America. All those guys in four doors and shifter karts are lucky we let them in at all.

You create more issue the more you post. We already have a cheap stock class. No one makes you spend big dollars to run stock class. A person can show up with a stock car on R tires and an alignment and trophy or win a natl event. Many of the top SS Z06s run stock shocks and wheels. Almost every BoxsterS runs stock shocks. A set of BS RX8 shocks are under $600.

We have raced and turned in a leased car with no issues. Leased a Miata, did autox and track days with it and turned in after I took off the koni shocks and swaybar, I was also able get back about 50% of what I paid for the parts after using them for two years.

So you want to use mwood as an example, well lucky for him he would be in a car that gets no allowances, so he does not get to buy swaybars. However he does get to spend money to have Cole Stock legal wheels built to spec. Now if he had bought a car that gets more allowances, he would have to spend more money to get up to speed. So in your world some of the people in a class only have to spend money on wheels while the others are forced to build an ST/SP car for Cole Stock.

Wow so what if backfired and BS got moved to AS in Coles world... Now your RX8 gets, swaybars, springs, flywheel and up to 10" wide wheels so it can keep up with AS cars. Sounds cheap to me.

altiain

iTrader: (3)

There, I think that was what you were actually trying to say.

Cole, the good drivers out there are good drivers regardless of what tires they have. They'd spank your *** on V710s. They'd spank your *** on Azenis. They'd spank your *** on Blizzaks. Doesn't matter. You're just reaching for excuses to make up for lack of talent. Spending too long as a big fish in a teeny pond will do that to you. If you got out more and ran at the National level, you'd start to realize that you suck because you suck, not because Joe Blow has some shiny bit of unobtanium you're too cheap to pony up for.

If you can't afford to set your current car up to the rules that were in place long before you decided to buy it, that's your own damn problem. There are plenty of people playing on the National level with budgets much smaller then yours, so why the hell should we change the entire rule structure or add an entirely new set of classes just because you're too stupid to budget for tires? Do I feel sorry for you? Sure. Do I think that's a good justification to introduce Cole Stock? Hell no.

I'll give you a prime example. I will be buying a new car at Nationals. Now, I could probably afford to buy that new Boxster S I've been lusting after if I really stretched things, but the additional monthly payment would wipe out the discretionary part of my budget that is currently earmarked for tires, entry fees, and travel expenses associated with my hobby. So... instead of buying a $50k car, I'm going to buy a $20k car, and I'll continue to be able to afford my hobby. Genius, isn't it?

Even more importantly, I'm buying a car that is already set up. One of the reasons I chose to go this route is because I could already envision my wife saying "you spent HOW MUCH on a set of wheels?", so I made sure to find a new car that already includes said wheels. And shocks. And everything else I need to compete at whatever level I want to, from my local marque club events to Nationals. Amazing concept, I know.

That's just me, but I find it easier to make my budget fit my hobby instead of trying to make my hobby - and all of the people involved in it nationwide - fit my budget. Something about lances and windmills and deranged knights...

ULLLOSE

iTrader: (1)

Well said.

rotor-te-rex

You are confused. The great drivers spank me on their V710s when I am on Azenis. The great drivers just beat me when we are both on Azenis. It's the difference between lapped car, and near photo finish. It's the exaggerated difference between a stock Ford Fusion and Stock Car Ford Fusion. It's the difference between a thoroughbred and shetland pony. As I've said in the past, it's like trying to race your C Stock Miata in SS. There is less spanking involved when all drivers are on similar equipment....tires being the largest time discriminator in "stock" vs. street tire stock.
Confused again. It's not a Cole problem. It's an ignore-regional-reality problem, where literally thousands of stock street tire drivers are shafted in favor of more modded national classes catering to a very few. Regional stock drivers pay the same dues but National modded drivers get all the rules attention. No one cries fowl when new classes involve mods.....heck National drivers don't care that Stock category involves mods. But don't dare suggest a new "stocker" class idea that closely mirrors Open stock (33%+ of drivers) but on different tires, cheaper aftermarket wheels, and with simple sway bar changes. A pox on you I-stock fanatics.....despite the regional reality of so many stock drivers on street tires and despite how closely ST mirrors SP on different tires. Who decided that 140 wear rating is just fine if you mod your car, but it's I-Stock if you don't???

And why do so many regional stock drivers use street tires. In many cases it is not a have vs. have not in the money department. It is have vs. have not in the "other commitment" department. You and many like you are empty nesters. You have no kid in college. You have no wife with a horse. Those are just personal examples, but everyone with multiple outside commitments has similar outside expenses many of you don't have. It kind of makes it easy for you to defend status quo rules that have evolved to being out of control cost-wise, because you CAN budget for such expenses due to high income AND lack of other expenses. In two years without a daughter in college, I too could buy your used RX8. That's an alternate reality for me and those like me who must make different big boy decisions you don't face.

The Solo Strategic Plan talks about intransigence. Although it goes unexplained, it refers to folks like you who believe all is peachy and keen because you are able to muster sufficient drivers to show up at National events at the current spending level. Why change the rules when they fit you just fine. You get free tires if you win and if your wife has talent she can win free tires in a much smaller field. Your kid can run because you were on the SEB and wrote it up that way. You think current spending levels are reasonable because your lack of other expenses makes it so. You see the same faces show up time and again at the same National events. You have the luxury of choosing between a $50K car vs. a $20K used cars set up for Solo. + putting money aside for savings. Many like me have the reality of paying college tuition and buying an average-priced car with hardly any left over. Kind of different choices, huh. Using your philosophy of buying the car to fit your budget and current rules, I should buy an STS Civic that I can't fix when it always breaks, and can't drive to work due to stiff springs, low ride level, and crazy negative camber. Uh no.

But lets go a step further. We are all smart guys. Then why accept stupid spending levels? Why pay twice as much for tires that last half as long, and can't be driven on the street? Are these tires really worth two seconds. Some say it is only a second's difference. Ever hear of the law of diminishing returns. Why spend so much more for so little extra speed? If you elect to....then be dumb. But don't force others to be equally dumb to enjoy the same sport you do. We pay the same dues. We are entitled to similar National rules attention even if we choose not to heavily mod our stock cars and choose a more sane brand and wear rating of tire.

Imp

Got a link to the results?

Sour freaking grapes.

Yes! YOU SHOULD go out and buy that civic instead of trying to change the rules. Racing
costs money Cole. Let me repeat that. Racing costs money. They higher up you go , the more it MAY cost. It's no ones problem BUT YOUR OWN that you cannot afford to compete at a level YOU would like to. YOU made the choices in life that you have now. But, you cannot accept that.. so you want to change things, trying to be the champion of Cole Stock.

And NOW you want to bring into the discussion about being empty nesters? Let's reach some more Cole. But I'll take that one on. How many of the people running the Stock-Street Tire classes are empty nesters other than yourself Cole? Again, do you have those fact handy?

I'm sure a simple e-mail to all the regions looking at reg info for everyone will determine what I think is the case... most of them are in their early 20s and single. OOoo does that count as empty nest too???

At least that's the case in tghe 3-4 different clubs I run with every year. And you know what? I don't hear them complain. Why is that Cole? They KNOW they are underprepped and they're saving for better stuff.

OOoo Saving! They have the capability to SAVE MONEY for the things they know will step up their game. EVO school, wheels, tires, new car even. Ever since you have start on Cole Stock, have you thought about putting aside some $$ every month so you can buy new wheels and tires next year? I bet you haven't even tried.

Those that are for the most part Older that are in stock have the money to spend on tires/wheels, becuase they also know how to save money.

You, dear Cole, are the exception.

--kC

PedalFaster

altiain

iTrader: (3)

I should feel sorry for you because you have a wife with a horse?

Cole, I don't intend to share my entire financial picture with everyone on this board. However, let me assure you that you don't have the faintest idea about my financial commitments or situation. I don't have an unlimited income, and I forego a lot of things, both financially and time-wise, in order to participate in autocrossing at the level I have chosen.

I'll share this with you, though. I know a guy who owns part of a small web business... and delivers pizza five days a week to make ends meet. He's going to Nationals on a fresh set of R tires - in his daily driver and delivery car, no less - and I don't ever hear him complaining about how the rules favor those with more disposable income. He wants to compete at that level, and he's committed the resources to do so, probably at a much greater sacrifice to his bottom line than you would have to make, you lazy, whining bastard.

So keep on whining - you made the choice to buy a brand new car that your horse could drive, and now you can't afford hay, or tires, or tuition down at Crazy Christian U, or whatever. That's your own damn problem, and frankly the rest of us don't give a **** that you can't juggle your finances to accomodate your hobby.

ULLLOSE

iTrader: (1)

So where are all these people Cole? In the time I have been on the SEB I have seen a total of three letters asking for a street tires in stock class. Some how with 60k+ members three letters does not seem like 33% to me.

While I do agree you had one east cost tour with a good size ST class, but on the other coast the class had four cars. I do not see the problem you are trying to fix. It seems to me that most of the regional st guys are happy with the regional st class, I think that only because I have not seen letters asking for more than that.

NoCones

Yeah, I'd probably complain...I much prefer R tires to street tires...part of that is probably due to the relative success I've had on each. But you know what? Even if I complained (and I assure you, my complaints would pale in comparison to yours, yet would have support from many others), I'd still show up at Pro's and Tours. I wouldn't sit scared on the sideline waiting for some rules that I thought would allow me to finish higher. Why are you so scared? It's bizarre to me that a military man who has owned his own business would whine behind his keyboard instead of manning up and giving it a shot.

Bring your regional scrub *** to Topeka and run my 710's...we'll see if you can almost keep up or not.

NoCones

ah, yes...your favorite thing to do...rationalize that you were really better than someone by conjuring up time values of equipment and applying pax factors...much better to be a guaranteed winner in your own dream world than a loser for real, huh?