How is the RX8 on the track?
01-05-2006, 07:16 PM
#27
Registered User
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bruce,
Excellent observations. Thank you for taking the time to do the writeup.
I'm glad you brought up the fuel topic. I ment to ask about that. The figures you quote were in line with what I would get with my STi. It disturbs me some that the RX8 is that bad, but I was also surprised to see the S2K getting 10 MPG too. I used to be able to go all day on one tank of gas with my 328i. Of course that was when I started tracking and didn't run the car as hard
I can understand what you are saying about having to be able to "drive" well with the RX8. The STi didn't require that as much, it's AWD got you out of a lot of situations and the extra power on tap made you look like a hero. Like I mentioned in my original posting, I'd like to put my Miata on the track if I can make the seat situation something I'm comfortable with (cost/safety/convenience). The Miata is like the RX8 in that it handles well but lacks any punch. You have to use momentum.
I'm glad to hear your comments on the DSC as well. I hated the DSC on my 328i. It would cut in way too early taking away power before anything really started to slip. It also lacked a differential which hurt performance a lot. Going from AWD back to RWD it will be nice to have the security of DSC until I got used to the car.
I figured at a minimum pads and brake fluid would be needed at a minimum. Deposits on the discs are a pain, I did that on my STi. Are the pads easy to swap in and out?
Again, thank you for all the information!
- Bill
Excellent observations. Thank you for taking the time to do the writeup.
I'm glad you brought up the fuel topic. I ment to ask about that. The figures you quote were in line with what I would get with my STi. It disturbs me some that the RX8 is that bad, but I was also surprised to see the S2K getting 10 MPG too. I used to be able to go all day on one tank of gas with my 328i. Of course that was when I started tracking and didn't run the car as hard
I can understand what you are saying about having to be able to "drive" well with the RX8. The STi didn't require that as much, it's AWD got you out of a lot of situations and the extra power on tap made you look like a hero. Like I mentioned in my original posting, I'd like to put my Miata on the track if I can make the seat situation something I'm comfortable with (cost/safety/convenience). The Miata is like the RX8 in that it handles well but lacks any punch. You have to use momentum.
I'm glad to hear your comments on the DSC as well. I hated the DSC on my 328i. It would cut in way too early taking away power before anything really started to slip. It also lacked a differential which hurt performance a lot. Going from AWD back to RWD it will be nice to have the security of DSC until I got used to the car.
I figured at a minimum pads and brake fluid would be needed at a minimum. Deposits on the discs are a pain, I did that on my STi. Are the pads easy to swap in and out?
Again, thank you for all the information!
- Bill
Originally Posted by moto_bruce
Bill,
I made an acquaintance at the last track day I drove, Anthony, who also drove an RX8 (VERY fast driver). He had posted times as quick as most of the instructors, even in heavier hardware. Alot of other drivers were approaching me telling me how fast I was and I had to tell them it was the other guy in the RX8. His comment was what other car can hang with an E46 M3 for 30k? In TopGear, the Stig drove a 350Z, M3 and RX8 with identical times around their test course, all cars stock. What I also enjoy about the RX8 is that is has depth. It won't scare someone new to motorsport, but a good driver can really dance with it. I remember my first track day in the car. Bone stock off the showroom flow, not even an alignment and it was so confidence inspiring, so easy to drive fast. The car isn't going to let you hide behind horsepower. Your driving skill will be naked for the world to see. But if you really do it well, the car is very, very fast.
Some of my experience for trackin':
One other issue that I didn't see mentioned yet was fuel. I can't remember the exact level, somewhere between 1/8 and 3/8 tank if memory is serving me properly, you will run into fuel starvation. It isn't in the corners, it is on the straights which is kind of weird. The first track day I did a couple of years ago was Buttonwillow and I was cruising down the front straight at a fair clip and the car stuttered. There are theories floating around about why this happens, I don't know myself. What is important to know is that it happens and that you need to schedule your fueling properly so that you don't waste a session stuttering along. I need to do some experimenting at my next track day (May) to find out exactly the level. I was so paranoid about it last time that I would run 2 track sessions, which would run me down to just below 1/2 tank, go and fill up. Next time out I'm bringing a 5 gal jug so that I can cut down on trips to the gas station and really find out at what level I start to see the starvation.
You will use a lot of fuel. At the Glen, I saw about 8mpg. At Buttonwillow I was seeing 7mpg. Something else to figure into your expenses. My S2K buddy was seeing about 10mpg at the Glen.
On the subject of brakes, I have some observations. My car is an early 04. I drove 3 track days on the stock tires and pads, including a warm day at Willow Springs. I didn't notice any brake fade. The last event I did the Glen with R compounds and new OEM pads. I bedded the pads in properly a week before the event. However, I ended up depositing pad material unevenly on the rotors by lunch on the first day of the event and the vibration only got worst during the weekend.
A few things come to mind:
1. The new OEM brake pads are a different compound than that which came on the car. I had heard about complaints of dusty pads and replacements available from dealers that don't dust as much. I haven't noticed too much of a difference is dusting, and I really didn't care anyway.
2. I probably should have put the pads on my car much earlier to allow the compound to cure more with regular use instead of just relying on the bedding in. Just my opinion.
3. R compounds give way more grip than OEM pads can handle at track speeds, causing overheating.
As far as handling goes, the car shows more body lean than a lot of other sports cars, but don't mistake that for an unsporting setup. It is just another form of communication from the chassis to the driver. Grip is very high, the car is very progressive and doesn't surprise at the limit. Transitions are a little slower than cars with really stiff suspensions, but turns and transitions happen so slowly on the track compared to auto-x it really isn't an issue.
I noticed that I was able to generate a greater pressure increase in my front tires than the rear. You would think that it would happen the other way around, and I know that driving style has a lot to do with it, but I think that shows just how good the stock brakes are, that you can work the front tires more, in spite of spending much more time on the throttle. This also tells me that a staggered set up is not a good idea, at least in my case.
I ran the last event with the DSC on and I will continue to do so until I start to see intervention that I don't like. I did see it come on a couple of times in turn 1 when I was a little too hot for the DSC. I didn't feel uncomfortable or that I was driving beyond my level, but the intrusion of the system was gentle so I didn't feel like I was fighting the system. When I start to feel like I am fighting the system, then I will turn it off.
I hope my observations are of help.
Bruce
I made an acquaintance at the last track day I drove, Anthony, who also drove an RX8 (VERY fast driver). He had posted times as quick as most of the instructors, even in heavier hardware. Alot of other drivers were approaching me telling me how fast I was and I had to tell them it was the other guy in the RX8. His comment was what other car can hang with an E46 M3 for 30k? In TopGear, the Stig drove a 350Z, M3 and RX8 with identical times around their test course, all cars stock. What I also enjoy about the RX8 is that is has depth. It won't scare someone new to motorsport, but a good driver can really dance with it. I remember my first track day in the car. Bone stock off the showroom flow, not even an alignment and it was so confidence inspiring, so easy to drive fast. The car isn't going to let you hide behind horsepower. Your driving skill will be naked for the world to see. But if you really do it well, the car is very, very fast.
Some of my experience for trackin':
One other issue that I didn't see mentioned yet was fuel. I can't remember the exact level, somewhere between 1/8 and 3/8 tank if memory is serving me properly, you will run into fuel starvation. It isn't in the corners, it is on the straights which is kind of weird. The first track day I did a couple of years ago was Buttonwillow and I was cruising down the front straight at a fair clip and the car stuttered. There are theories floating around about why this happens, I don't know myself. What is important to know is that it happens and that you need to schedule your fueling properly so that you don't waste a session stuttering along. I need to do some experimenting at my next track day (May) to find out exactly the level. I was so paranoid about it last time that I would run 2 track sessions, which would run me down to just below 1/2 tank, go and fill up. Next time out I'm bringing a 5 gal jug so that I can cut down on trips to the gas station and really find out at what level I start to see the starvation.
You will use a lot of fuel. At the Glen, I saw about 8mpg. At Buttonwillow I was seeing 7mpg. Something else to figure into your expenses. My S2K buddy was seeing about 10mpg at the Glen.
On the subject of brakes, I have some observations. My car is an early 04. I drove 3 track days on the stock tires and pads, including a warm day at Willow Springs. I didn't notice any brake fade. The last event I did the Glen with R compounds and new OEM pads. I bedded the pads in properly a week before the event. However, I ended up depositing pad material unevenly on the rotors by lunch on the first day of the event and the vibration only got worst during the weekend.
A few things come to mind:
1. The new OEM brake pads are a different compound than that which came on the car. I had heard about complaints of dusty pads and replacements available from dealers that don't dust as much. I haven't noticed too much of a difference is dusting, and I really didn't care anyway.
2. I probably should have put the pads on my car much earlier to allow the compound to cure more with regular use instead of just relying on the bedding in. Just my opinion.
3. R compounds give way more grip than OEM pads can handle at track speeds, causing overheating.
As far as handling goes, the car shows more body lean than a lot of other sports cars, but don't mistake that for an unsporting setup. It is just another form of communication from the chassis to the driver. Grip is very high, the car is very progressive and doesn't surprise at the limit. Transitions are a little slower than cars with really stiff suspensions, but turns and transitions happen so slowly on the track compared to auto-x it really isn't an issue.
I noticed that I was able to generate a greater pressure increase in my front tires than the rear. You would think that it would happen the other way around, and I know that driving style has a lot to do with it, but I think that shows just how good the stock brakes are, that you can work the front tires more, in spite of spending much more time on the throttle. This also tells me that a staggered set up is not a good idea, at least in my case.
I ran the last event with the DSC on and I will continue to do so until I start to see intervention that I don't like. I did see it come on a couple of times in turn 1 when I was a little too hot for the DSC. I didn't feel uncomfortable or that I was driving beyond my level, but the intrusion of the system was gentle so I didn't feel like I was fighting the system. When I start to feel like I am fighting the system, then I will turn it off.
I hope my observations are of help.
Bruce
01-05-2006, 08:13 PM
#28
Registered
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 22
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pads are pretty easy to swap, but you'll need to be aware that the fronts and the rears work a little differently when pressing the pistons back in so you can fit newer (thicker) pads in. On the fronts you can just use the normal tool that forces the piston in, but in the rear the piston compresses by a twisting motion (sort of like turning a screw). You can buy a tool for it, or do like I do and just use needlenose pliers to twist it in. I bet there are DIYs somewhere on this forum, but I haven't looked.
The RX-8 is a phenomenal driver's car. It demands a lot of the driver in stock form to get the most out of it, but it is incredibly rewarding to drive fast. I have found that I can keep up with some pretty fast cars (driven by experience drivers) simply by virtue of the chassis balance. But, the car can also bite you if you drive it clumsily.
We have found that it is both more docile and more responsive, albeit slightly less willing to rotate, with certain suspension modifications. My assessment is that it appears that the Mazda engineers have used the roll designed into the suspension and low rebound damping of the rear shocks to allow the rear end to unload, or decompress, a fair amount to induce rotation through the camber increase (toward positive) resulting in a reduced contact patch, and maybe even a slight change in toe toward out as the rear suspension extends further (counter-intuitive, yes, but I believe it's used as subtle passive rear steering, which becomes less subtle at the limits). This allows the car to really rotate well under trailing throttle or under braking - sometimes a little too well if you aren't careful. I'd say be sure to brake in a straight line instead of trail braking into the turn while you're getting comfortable with the car, being sure to get most or all of your braking done in a straight line. On a stock suspension, trail braking heavily can really bring the tail around, though the car is amazing in how easy it is to catch once it rotates (thank you low polar moment of intertia). Trail braking with Whiteline sway bars front and rear and coilovers makes it much easier to trail brake safely and makes the car incredibly agile and responsive. The rear suspension simply doesn't unload as much, and there is hardly any roll, so the things that the suspension engineers design in are to some extent removed to gain other benefits. You have to learn to drive the car a bit differently. A slightly different alignment helps, too.
As people have said, depending on the ambient temps and the track you're running, if you're driving hard you can fade the brakes and boil some fluid. I've run many events with ATE SuperBlue and Carbotech PantherPlus or XP8s up front and Bobcats in the rear and have never experienced fade, even on 105 degree days with long sessions. And, the Carbotechs are quite rotor friendly. I've had my original rotors two years now, with a pretty good number of events, and they're just now looking like they're ready to be replaced, and that includes having them turned once after some pad deposit from running the OEM pads at the track early in the car's life.
In summary, the car is amazingly well built for the track. DPE's WRX (RIP - replaced by a new STI today) has issues with overheating the front hubs and getting pad knock-back (the calipers get pushed outward due to the hub allowing the wheel, and hence rotor, to rotate outward slightly in corners once the hubs heat up), and that was with StopTechs. The result is a pedal that goes to the floor when braking after a hard corner on track. The WRX also tortures tires - it can chew through a set in no time if they aren't rotated, because it's pretty hard on the fronts. DPE's 350Z is an Enthusiast with the stock braking system, and with Bobcats on the rear it toasts the rear pads in a couple of events (time for XP8s out back). The 350Z is also nowhere near as balanced a chassis from the factory as the RX-8, which shows on track. Now, the 350Z can be driven with a bit more abandon and less fear of getting bit, but I believe the RX-8 to be the more rewarding to drive. The RX-8 has a piece of metal that sticks out of the splash shields on the brakes to direct air flow to the rotors after the air passes through the oil coolers, which really seems to help on track. I can only say good things about how well the RX-8 is built to withstand the tortures of track use, at least when used in DEs with session times of reasonable duration.
All of the praise for the stock RX-8 aside, it does benefit on track from upgrades. For fade-free fun, I'd say do a minimum of an upgrade to Carbotech XP8 pads on the front and ATE SuperBlue fluid. It'll make a world of difference once you start pushing the car hard. It makes up huge distance under braking when you start pushing hard, and that's when it really is nice to have something better than OEM pads and fluid. I have left the track a time or two when the car was still on stock pads wondering if I could stop at the first stop sign outside the gates. And, the Carbotech stuff (especially XP8, PantherPlus, and Bobcat) is extremely street-friendly, not needing to be heated up a bunch to work like some track pads. And, of course I would be remiss if I didn't mention that we do sell Carbotech pads and ATE SuperBlue. But, we sell them because we use them ourselves and believe they make high-quality stuff that delivers lots of bang for the buck.
The RX-8 is a phenomenal driver's car. It demands a lot of the driver in stock form to get the most out of it, but it is incredibly rewarding to drive fast. I have found that I can keep up with some pretty fast cars (driven by experience drivers) simply by virtue of the chassis balance. But, the car can also bite you if you drive it clumsily.
We have found that it is both more docile and more responsive, albeit slightly less willing to rotate, with certain suspension modifications. My assessment is that it appears that the Mazda engineers have used the roll designed into the suspension and low rebound damping of the rear shocks to allow the rear end to unload, or decompress, a fair amount to induce rotation through the camber increase (toward positive) resulting in a reduced contact patch, and maybe even a slight change in toe toward out as the rear suspension extends further (counter-intuitive, yes, but I believe it's used as subtle passive rear steering, which becomes less subtle at the limits). This allows the car to really rotate well under trailing throttle or under braking - sometimes a little too well if you aren't careful. I'd say be sure to brake in a straight line instead of trail braking into the turn while you're getting comfortable with the car, being sure to get most or all of your braking done in a straight line. On a stock suspension, trail braking heavily can really bring the tail around, though the car is amazing in how easy it is to catch once it rotates (thank you low polar moment of intertia). Trail braking with Whiteline sway bars front and rear and coilovers makes it much easier to trail brake safely and makes the car incredibly agile and responsive. The rear suspension simply doesn't unload as much, and there is hardly any roll, so the things that the suspension engineers design in are to some extent removed to gain other benefits. You have to learn to drive the car a bit differently. A slightly different alignment helps, too.
As people have said, depending on the ambient temps and the track you're running, if you're driving hard you can fade the brakes and boil some fluid. I've run many events with ATE SuperBlue and Carbotech PantherPlus or XP8s up front and Bobcats in the rear and have never experienced fade, even on 105 degree days with long sessions. And, the Carbotechs are quite rotor friendly. I've had my original rotors two years now, with a pretty good number of events, and they're just now looking like they're ready to be replaced, and that includes having them turned once after some pad deposit from running the OEM pads at the track early in the car's life.
In summary, the car is amazingly well built for the track. DPE's WRX (RIP - replaced by a new STI today) has issues with overheating the front hubs and getting pad knock-back (the calipers get pushed outward due to the hub allowing the wheel, and hence rotor, to rotate outward slightly in corners once the hubs heat up), and that was with StopTechs. The result is a pedal that goes to the floor when braking after a hard corner on track. The WRX also tortures tires - it can chew through a set in no time if they aren't rotated, because it's pretty hard on the fronts. DPE's 350Z is an Enthusiast with the stock braking system, and with Bobcats on the rear it toasts the rear pads in a couple of events (time for XP8s out back). The 350Z is also nowhere near as balanced a chassis from the factory as the RX-8, which shows on track. Now, the 350Z can be driven with a bit more abandon and less fear of getting bit, but I believe the RX-8 to be the more rewarding to drive. The RX-8 has a piece of metal that sticks out of the splash shields on the brakes to direct air flow to the rotors after the air passes through the oil coolers, which really seems to help on track. I can only say good things about how well the RX-8 is built to withstand the tortures of track use, at least when used in DEs with session times of reasonable duration.
All of the praise for the stock RX-8 aside, it does benefit on track from upgrades. For fade-free fun, I'd say do a minimum of an upgrade to Carbotech XP8 pads on the front and ATE SuperBlue fluid. It'll make a world of difference once you start pushing the car hard. It makes up huge distance under braking when you start pushing hard, and that's when it really is nice to have something better than OEM pads and fluid. I have left the track a time or two when the car was still on stock pads wondering if I could stop at the first stop sign outside the gates. And, the Carbotech stuff (especially XP8, PantherPlus, and Bobcat) is extremely street-friendly, not needing to be heated up a bunch to work like some track pads. And, of course I would be remiss if I didn't mention that we do sell Carbotech pads and ATE SuperBlue. But, we sell them because we use them ourselves and believe they make high-quality stuff that delivers lots of bang for the buck.
01-06-2006, 09:37 AM
#29
I listened to DPE and I am glad of it. They have been VERY helpful. The rear koni's are set at 1/2 turn from full soft and then you leave them alone. The front konis are full soft for street and one firmer for the track(best for me so far thank you DPE for the guideance). One thing also not mentioned is on any high speed turn with any kind of dip to it, the front end will get a "little " light with the stock shocks. Turn 12 at Road Atlanta is a good example.
WIth the konis/tein springs and rb sways I can trail brake anywhere at any speed. Just have to ease on the petal a little at the time. Much differant than approach the turn till you see god and put both feet and an elbow on the brake petal! The suspenion really helped with those trail braking double apex turns.
One other good time about the car on the track is the transmission, great shifting--6 speed--ratios are close--most tracks you only need 3 and 4th gear.
The engine purrs on the track and will go all day. Just do the good cool down laps and pit procedures.
After the race track then you can go to the building supply store and buy some 2x4 lumber for that project --put it in the 8 with all the windows up and drive home. WHAT A DAMN CAR!
olddragger
WIth the konis/tein springs and rb sways I can trail brake anywhere at any speed. Just have to ease on the petal a little at the time. Much differant than approach the turn till you see god and put both feet and an elbow on the brake petal! The suspenion really helped with those trail braking double apex turns.
One other good time about the car on the track is the transmission, great shifting--6 speed--ratios are close--most tracks you only need 3 and 4th gear.
The engine purrs on the track and will go all day. Just do the good cool down laps and pit procedures.
After the race track then you can go to the building supply store and buy some 2x4 lumber for that project --put it in the 8 with all the windows up and drive home. WHAT A DAMN CAR!
olddragger
01-06-2006, 09:56 AM
#30
RX8 and a Truk....
A bit more on DSC - I think it's very safe to leave the DSC off - but not 'all the way off'. I found with just the 'dsc off' illuminated, but 'not' the 7-second-hold, the car carried a LOT of speed, the back end would step out on occasion - however. With the DSC full-on, Any slippage would result in the brakes grabbing/power loss. Even with the DSC Off illuminated, there's still enough TCS/DSC function remaining to keep the car on the track.
01-06-2006, 10:01 AM
#31
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Misinformation Director - Evolv Chicago
Posts: 3,086
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks DMP, I was wondering about leaving the DSC at that half off/ half on stage...will be doing my first track day soon and was debating that...
01-06-2006, 10:22 AM
#33
RX8 and a Truk....
Originally Posted by Red Devil
Thanks DMP, I was wondering about leaving the DSC at that half off/ half on stage...will be doing my first track day soon and was debating that...
I started the day with everything 'on'...pavement was wet. After the lines dried up, I did the 7-second-completey-off thing. Car fish-tailed like a SOB...
Yeah, I'll read replies 'you obviously weren't driving it well enough'. So what? For my skill level, I was MUCH faster w/ just the stability control part-way-off. :DExperiment, and post pics/vids! Good luck!!
01-06-2006, 10:37 AM
#34
I miss my 'Bu
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: GA
Posts: 1,243
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My feedback...
Having done 6 trackdays last year all with upgraded suspension (Racing beat springs and sway bars) the RX8 is a pleasure to drive and easily keeps up with cars that have more hp/tq due to its excellent chassis.
DSC
Stiffening the suspension has made the DSC less forgiving of any slip angle though. I have to take issue with DMPs suggestion that a single press of the DSC button keeps DSC working but at a lesser level. This is not true in my experience. DSC off is DSC off. It will not catch you if you lose it and I have video to prove that. The traction control defeat (8second press) doesn't buy you much since we don't have enough tq to break the rear wheels loose accelerating out of a corner (unless you are on a wet, slick track at which point it would be a bad idea to turn off any aids). Some people say that the 8 second press gives better electronic throttle response but I havn't noticed.
Tires
A great mod is a set of sticky tires. I ran my last 2 events on Toyo RA1s. With DSC off, the car was easy to drive and exhibited impeccable manners. At the limits of traction the steering communicates well what is going on. Catching and correcting oversteer is easy providing you stay smooth and calm.
On stock tires I found the best hot temps(coming off the track) to be around 37psi (front and back). This means cold temps around 31psi. Play around with it.
Brakes
As for upgrading brakes - I ran 3 track events with stock pads. No fade, no boil. If you brake early and ride the brakes you will expereince fade but if you go deep and brake hard, you should be OK. This was true for me on my early events. If you are very fast, you may want a pad upgrade right away. Upgraded pads with better fluid was a worthwhile mod. My expereince with Hawk pads is to recommend using the same compound (HP+) for front and rear. I used the lesser HPS pads for the rear and under heavy braking the back felt unstable. HP+ rears are on the way for me
Have fun and be careful. All my vids are linked in my signature.
Having done 6 trackdays last year all with upgraded suspension (Racing beat springs and sway bars) the RX8 is a pleasure to drive and easily keeps up with cars that have more hp/tq due to its excellent chassis.
DSC
Stiffening the suspension has made the DSC less forgiving of any slip angle though. I have to take issue with DMPs suggestion that a single press of the DSC button keeps DSC working but at a lesser level. This is not true in my experience. DSC off is DSC off. It will not catch you if you lose it and I have video to prove that. The traction control defeat (8second press) doesn't buy you much since we don't have enough tq to break the rear wheels loose accelerating out of a corner (unless you are on a wet, slick track at which point it would be a bad idea to turn off any aids). Some people say that the 8 second press gives better electronic throttle response but I havn't noticed.
Tires
A great mod is a set of sticky tires. I ran my last 2 events on Toyo RA1s. With DSC off, the car was easy to drive and exhibited impeccable manners. At the limits of traction the steering communicates well what is going on. Catching and correcting oversteer is easy providing you stay smooth and calm.
On stock tires I found the best hot temps(coming off the track) to be around 37psi (front and back). This means cold temps around 31psi. Play around with it.
Brakes
As for upgrading brakes - I ran 3 track events with stock pads. No fade, no boil. If you brake early and ride the brakes you will expereince fade but if you go deep and brake hard, you should be OK. This was true for me on my early events. If you are very fast, you may want a pad upgrade right away. Upgraded pads with better fluid was a worthwhile mod. My expereince with Hawk pads is to recommend using the same compound (HP+) for front and rear. I used the lesser HPS pads for the rear and under heavy braking the back felt unstable. HP+ rears are on the way for me
Have fun and be careful. All my vids are linked in my signature.
01-06-2006, 10:54 AM
#35
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Misinformation Director - Evolv Chicago
Posts: 3,086
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm planning on switching to Bobcats front and rear and probably Motul600. The only other suspension/braking mods I have are SS brake lines, Whiteline F&R sways, and JIC F&R strut braces. I'm contemplating going to Koni/Tein before hand also, but am thinking I'll probably wait as I'm not sure that I may not just go to a full coilover like the JIC FLT's. I'm still on the OEM Dunlops, but they have more than 50% tread. I'm waiting for those to wear before I upgrade to wider wheels/tires.
Will get pics when I go...
Thanks for all the input guys...
Will get pics when I go...
Thanks for all the input guys...
01-06-2006, 10:56 AM
#36
RX8 and a Truk....
Originally Posted by TrackAddict
My feedback...
Having done 6 trackdays last year all with upgraded suspension (Racing beat springs and sway bars) the RX8 is a pleasure to drive and easily keeps up with cars that have more hp/tq due to its excellent chassis.
DSC
Stiffening the suspension has made the DSC less forgiving of any slip angle though. I have to take issue with DMPs suggestion that a single press of the DSC button keeps DSC working but at a lesser level. This is not true in my experience. DSC off is DSC off. It will not catch you if you lose it and I have video to prove that. The traction control defeat (8second press) doesn't buy you much since we don't have enough tq to break the rear wheels loose accelerating out of a corner (unless you are on a wet, slick track at which point it would be a bad idea to turn off any aids). Some people say that the 8 second press gives better electronic throttle response but I havn't noticed.
Having done 6 trackdays last year all with upgraded suspension (Racing beat springs and sway bars) the RX8 is a pleasure to drive and easily keeps up with cars that have more hp/tq due to its excellent chassis.
DSC
Stiffening the suspension has made the DSC less forgiving of any slip angle though. I have to take issue with DMPs suggestion that a single press of the DSC button keeps DSC working but at a lesser level. This is not true in my experience. DSC off is DSC off. It will not catch you if you lose it and I have video to prove that. The traction control defeat (8second press) doesn't buy you much since we don't have enough tq to break the rear wheels loose accelerating out of a corner (unless you are on a wet, slick track at which point it would be a bad idea to turn off any aids). Some people say that the 8 second press gives better electronic throttle response but I havn't noticed.
[edit] Oh...and Your vids are awesome.
:D
Last edited by dmp; 01-06-2006 at 11:03 AM.
01-06-2006, 12:22 PM
#37
What's next?
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: SE Mass
Posts: 1,087
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Red Devil
I'm planning on switching to Bobcats front and rear and probably Motul600. The only other suspension/braking mods I have are SS brake lines, Whiteline F&R sways, and JIC F&R strut braces. I'm contemplating going to Koni/Tein before hand also, but am thinking I'll probably wait as I'm not sure that I may not just go to a full coilover like the JIC FLT's. I'm still on the OEM Dunlops, but they have more than 50% tread. I'm waiting for those to wear before I upgrade to wider wheels/tires.
Will get pics when I go...
Thanks for all the input guys...
Will get pics when I go...
Thanks for all the input guys...
--kC
01-06-2006, 12:58 PM
#38
I miss my 'Bu
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: GA
Posts: 1,243
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by dmp
...and Your vids are awesome.
01-06-2006, 08:41 PM
#40
Registered
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 22
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Imp
For track, you should have more than Bobcats in the front.. either P+ or XP8s.
--kC
--kC
But, for someone going to their first or second HPDE ever, the Bobcats should suffice. As the driver gets more comfortable, though, for sure go with XP8s or P+. Once you start using all of the car's braking ability, brakes do become an issue, no question. But, there are plenty of people who can go a full day with stock pads and come out alright, and Bobcats are a step up from those. Just depends on how hard you're going to drive the car on track. When you're ready to upgrade from Bobcats up front to XP8s, you'll know it, and then you'll be ready to buy some new pads.
But, until you're at that point, don't feel like you can't get out there and learn and have fun without track pads. If you want to make absolutely sure you won't have fade on track, go ahead and get the XP8s up front to go with Bobcats or XP8s in the rear. But, if you are looking to see if track days are for you and you just want to get out and learn and have fun, Bobcats and good fluid will serve you well until you decide if it's worth the money to upgrade to track pads. And, really, with any pads you run I would recommend high quality fluid like what we carry on our site, with our favorite being ATE SuperBlue for highest bang for the buck, or Motul if you want the absolute highest quality fluid with the highest boiling point. If you want to read a bit more on the subject of brakes, be sure to check out our technical articles regarding brakes on our site.
01-07-2006, 12:01 AM
#41
Originally Posted by TheArchitect
But, until you're at that point, don't feel like you can't get out there and learn and have fun without track pads. If you want to make absolutely sure you won't have fade on track, go ahead and get the XP8s up front to go with Bobcats or XP8s in the rear.
I really like the HP+ but can't stand the noise on the street and really don't want to swap pads all the time. Dust is not a concern. Some squeal is ok for me, just can't handle the volume of the HP+ and it seems each corner is at a slightly different frequency, drives me batty.
01-07-2006, 04:19 PM
#42
Registered
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 22
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by avakiannl
I have some experience with the Hawk HPS and HP+ pads. How do the XP8s compare?
I really like the HP+ but can't stand the noise on the street and really don't want to swap pads all the time. Dust is not a concern. Some squeal is ok for me, just can't handle the volume of the HP+ and it seems each corner is at a slightly different frequency, drives me batty.
I really like the HP+ but can't stand the noise on the street and really don't want to swap pads all the time. Dust is not a concern. Some squeal is ok for me, just can't handle the volume of the HP+ and it seems each corner is at a slightly different frequency, drives me batty.
Our solution is to run good aggressive street pads front and rear, and just swap the fronts only to track pads, and not hassle with shims and anti-squeal, when getting ready to head to the track. Doing it this way, it only takes a few minutes to swap pads, literally. The longest part is getting the wheels off and on. We run Bobcats on all of our DPE cars on the street, and then swap to XP8s up front for the track. It's not as nice as not swapping pads at all, but it reduces it to a tolerable nuisance, anyway.
If you are easy on brakes, or if your track is easy on brakes, you may be able to get away with Bobcats all around and just go from street to track without swapping. Not ideal, mind you, and there's no guarantee that they won't fade, but with high quality fluid and the right conditions it can work. You'll likely go through the Bobcats somewhat more quickly than would be the case in track pads if you're hitting the track with them regularly or as you start to use the brakes more aggressively, but as a compromise for street and track from one pad, that is an option (with the aforementioned caveats about it potentially not working, depending on conditions).
01-07-2006, 04:35 PM
#43
Registered
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 22
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
And, what I failed to mention in the previous post is that Bobcats front and rear on track won't necessarily work for every car. Not all cars are as easy on brakes as the RX-8 is. We can't, for instance, run just Bobcats front and rear on the DPE WRX, whether on the stock brakes or on StopTechs, because the car just generates way too much heat up front. Bobcats on the rear of the DPE 350Z don't seem to cause a degradation in performance on track, but unfortunately vaporize after only a couple of track outings (in a non-Brembo-outfitted Z, that is), justifying XP8s at both ends on that car.
Different cars make different demands. The RX-8 just makes fewer demands in the braking department than most cars thanks to fairly light (and balanced) weight, good brake bias, and built-in cooling for the fronts.
Different cars make different demands. The RX-8 just makes fewer demands in the braking department than most cars thanks to fairly light (and balanced) weight, good brake bias, and built-in cooling for the fronts.
01-07-2006, 05:51 PM
#45
Registered
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 22
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by olddragger
once you run the xp's you will never go back! Hit those babies and you better have extra glue on your dentures! Absoulutely great set up for me is the xp's in front and the bobs in the back. Takes maybe 30 mins to swap them out.
Olddragger
Olddragger
01-07-2006, 09:59 PM
#47
Registered
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Southern California
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just noticed, didn't see anyone mention oil!
Rotaries consume a lot of oil under track conditions. Bring some with you. In a 2 day event, I used 3 quarts. That was over 300 track miles. I was checking my level every other session.
Bruce
Rotaries consume a lot of oil under track conditions. Bring some with you. In a 2 day event, I used 3 quarts. That was over 300 track miles. I was checking my level every other session.
Bruce
01-08-2006, 08:06 AM
#48
What's next?
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: SE Mass
Posts: 1,087
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by moto_bruce
Although I use Ate, another great bargain in brake fluid is Valvoline Synthetic. Cheap, almost as good as Ate and easy to get a hold of.
Bruce
Bruce
From another site:
Brand DOT Rating Dry Boiling Wet Boiling
AP Racing 550 DOT 3 550°F (287°C) 284°F (140°C)
AP Racing 600 DOT 3 572°F (300°C) 284°F (140°C)
ATE Super Blue DOT 4 536°F (280°C) 382°F (194°C)
ATE Super 200 (amber color, aka Type 200) DOT 4 536°F (280°C) 382°F (194°C)
Bosch DOT 3 DOT 3 491°F (255°C) 288°F (142°C)
Bosch DOT 4 DOT 4 509°F (265°C) 329°F (165°C)
Bosch DOT 4+ DOT 4 536°F (280°C) 356°F (180°C)
Castrol LMA DOT 4 446°F (230°C) 311°F (155°C)
Castrol SRF DOT 4 590°F (310°C) 518°F (270°C)
Ford HD (C6AZ-19542-AB) DOT 3 550°F (287°C) 284°F (140°C)
Motul DOT 5.1 DOT 5.1 509ºF (265°C) 365ºF (185°C)
Motul Racing Brake Fluid 600 DOT 4 594ºF (312ºC) 421°F (216°C)
Performance Friction Z-Rated DOT 3 550°F (287°C) 284°F (140°C)
Wilwood 570 DOT 3 570°F (299°C) 284°F (140°C)
Wilwood EXP600 Plus DOT 4 633°F (330°C) 417°F (213°C)
Min. Temp. for DOT Rating
Dry Boiling Wet Boiling
DOT 3
401°F 284°F
DOT 4
446°F 311°F
DOT 5
500°F 356°F
01-08-2006, 08:29 AM
#50
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Gaithersburg, MD
Posts: 83
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Imp
Ford DOT3 is the best hidden gem I've found. Not a synth so fully compatible with current brake fluid, and can be had at any Ford Dealer, for around $3.50 - $4.00/bottle.
On tracks that aren't as hard on brakes, you can easily get a full weekend out of the fluid. For those tracks that are harder on brakes, we usually just flush out a little from each corner after day 1, top off the resevoir and move on. I see some of the folks that run ATE or Motul doing the same thing. Both of us are pretty brutal on brakes, so I feel like we're getting our money's worth.