Heel toe braking and left foot braking
11-20-2010, 10:38 AM
#51
ok--point--when yall do rev match , do yall go from the gear you are in to the gear you need--skipping gears (if you need too)? Or do yall row through them all?
or do you double clutch it? Especially when going from a higher gear to a much lower gear? Oldtimers will recognize this tech.
OD
or do you double clutch it? Especially when going from a higher gear to a much lower gear? Oldtimers will recognize this tech.
OD
11-20-2010, 11:09 AM
#52
I've seen good drivers do what ULLOSE and you are describing as well (some pre-sequential f1 drivers too did it) but in the end I think that it comes to personal preference and driving technique.
11-20-2010, 11:18 AM
#53
My reasons would to let the synchros mesh and aid the brakes with a bit with engine braking which is ok for keeping the car balanced and with good traction too.
I've seen good drivers do what ULLOSE and you are describing as well (some pre-sequential f1 drivers too did it) but in the end I think that it comes to personal preference and driving technique.
I've seen good drivers do what ULLOSE and you are describing as well (some pre-sequential f1 drivers too did it) but in the end I think that it comes to personal preference and driving technique.
If engine braking is helping to slow your car on the track, then you have the wrong brake pads, or you are coasting. Every time you push the clutch in and let it out, no matter how well you rev match, you risk changing the balance of the car.
11-20-2010, 11:31 AM
#54
My concerns would be more towards the rear wheels locking rather than upsetting the car's balance. It takes time but you get used to downshifting and screwing up is highly difficult.
Staying in the powerband is also a good thing imho.
If the tyres aren't a concern, meaning that you have enough grip not to lock the wheels when braking, then helping the pads seems reasonable to me. It would be nice to see what technique shows less braking distance!
Also keep in mind that i'm not a professional race driver, that's more of a hobby but that's the way we're told to race a car during every racing school etc.
Staying in the powerband is also a good thing imho.
If the tyres aren't a concern, meaning that you have enough grip not to lock the wheels when braking, then helping the pads seems reasonable to me. It would be nice to see what technique shows less braking distance!
Also keep in mind that i'm not a professional race driver, that's more of a hobby but that's the way we're told to race a car during every racing school etc.
11-20-2010, 11:57 AM
#55
If you are going from 5th to 3rd, 4th gear wont know it was skipped.
If engine braking is helping to slow your car on the track, then you have the wrong brake pads, or you are coasting. Every time you push the clutch in and let it out, no matter how well you rev match, you risk changing the balance of the car.
If engine braking is helping to slow your car on the track, then you have the wrong brake pads, or you are coasting. Every time you push the clutch in and let it out, no matter how well you rev match, you risk changing the balance of the car.
If any "driving school" is telling you to do other wise, you need a different driving school.
Braking should be handled by the brakes. They are much more controllable. Using the clutch to pull the driveline into the equation while you are settling the car for a turn adds way too many variables.
If nothing more, brakes are cheaper than clutches!
If you have enough time to row through the gears, you aren't braking late enough. If you can't brake later, you don't have enough brake pad.
At the end of the straight at Firebird main, I go from 5th to 2nd, braking from 150+MPH to 40 or so. I'll initiate braking just in time to get that speed change and that is just enough time to get it down to second.
Full on the whoa pedal, modulate it out a bit, outside edge of my foot to the go pedal as the clutch goes in, blip to near redline, pull the lever then clutch out and on the gas at the same time and turn. If I did it right, there should be no sensation of the clutch engaging. It takes about 2 seconds for the whole maneuver.
11-20-2010, 12:18 PM
#57
^^ This. Totally correct.
If any "driving school" is telling you to do other wise, you need a different driving school.
Braking should be handled by the brakes. They are much more controllable. Using the clutch to pull the driveline into the equation while you are settling the car for a turn adds way too many variables.
If nothing more, brakes are cheaper than clutches!
If any "driving school" is telling you to do other wise, you need a different driving school.
Braking should be handled by the brakes. They are much more controllable. Using the clutch to pull the driveline into the equation while you are settling the car for a turn adds way too many variables.
If nothing more, brakes are cheaper than clutches!
Braking should be handled by the brakes, i agree. Maybe i just explained myself in an unclear way when referring to engine braking.
Downshifting, as it is taught, should end before the braking phase ends so i find it difficult to upset the car's behavior.
This is what i'm referring to btw:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klMur...22CDF&index=27
And that's it being done by Senna...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8By2A...eature=related
Given my ferret-like nature and my curiosity i'll investigate the next time i hit the track though, i have to do some shakedown tests for the next season
11-20-2010, 12:42 PM
#58
If you can get the RX-8's tranny to change gears that quickly, you are in really great shape.
For the rest of us that have regular RX-8 trannys made by Aisin, the synchros are not quite that fast, so "stepped" changes are not practical.
BTW - both of those examples show how much more important rev-matched shifts are when trail-braking.
11-20-2010, 12:48 PM
#59
Isn't it what I wrote? i'm studying so hard i have problems expressing myself outside any juridical environment.
We gotta hate our transmissions. Overheating, clunky pieces of crap.
I wrote earlier that i brake late and trail brake at times so i guess that's just how the way i should keep doing it, except reducing my overall brake pedal usage
It's good to have this kind of comparisons anyway, learning what drivers with different styles do is fun and helpful.
We gotta hate our transmissions. Overheating, clunky pieces of crap.
I wrote earlier that i brake late and trail brake at times so i guess that's just how the way i should keep doing it, except reducing my overall brake pedal usage
It's good to have this kind of comparisons anyway, learning what drivers with different styles do is fun and helpful.
11-20-2010, 03:45 PM
#60
the 09 trans (which I have) shifts better than the S1 model and the gear ratios are closer together--especially 5th to 4th. Plus the syncro saver lets to shift much stronger and faster. The closer ratio trans and the ability to shift in a more secure way is what lead me to play with what I did in the vid.
What BSE has posted is what I am talking about also. Rowing through the gears helps me in not missing a gear and the car feels better. I have always been taught that it is easier on the trans to go through all the gears? Dont know?
However --i have to remember that every throttle blip--unconsciously can take away brake pedal pressure
Rev matching is important. But, Its even imho more important in a wider spaced gear ratio trans and in a car with massive engine drag.
Our car has a very low engine drag factor--thats why on lift throttle we dont get the same chassis affect say a viper does...lol.
I am not arguing agaisnt heel/toe--not at all, If you track you need to learn to do this. But what I am saying in some circumstances, with our little engines, other tools can be used if you find yourself in a situation in which that is your option.
Do remember when you do blip the throttle then you are using the clutch to slow the engine--its never a perfect match--wish i could perfect match a down shift!
hell i cant even perfect match walking.
OD
What BSE has posted is what I am talking about also. Rowing through the gears helps me in not missing a gear and the car feels better. I have always been taught that it is easier on the trans to go through all the gears? Dont know?
However --i have to remember that every throttle blip--unconsciously can take away brake pedal pressure
Rev matching is important. But, Its even imho more important in a wider spaced gear ratio trans and in a car with massive engine drag.
Our car has a very low engine drag factor--thats why on lift throttle we dont get the same chassis affect say a viper does...lol.
I am not arguing agaisnt heel/toe--not at all, If you track you need to learn to do this. But what I am saying in some circumstances, with our little engines, other tools can be used if you find yourself in a situation in which that is your option.
Do remember when you do blip the throttle then you are using the clutch to slow the engine--its never a perfect match--wish i could perfect match a down shift!
hell i cant even perfect match walking.
OD
11-20-2010, 04:27 PM
#62
If you are going from 5th to 3rd, 4th gear wont know it was skipped.
If engine braking is helping to slow your car on the track, then you have the wrong brake pads, or you are coasting. Every time you push the clutch in and let it out, no matter how well you rev match, you risk changing the balance of the car.
If engine braking is helping to slow your car on the track, then you have the wrong brake pads, or you are coasting. Every time you push the clutch in and let it out, no matter how well you rev match, you risk changing the balance of the car.
[sarcasm] That's not how they did in The Fast & The Furious.....[/sarcasm]
11-20-2010, 06:26 PM
#64
11-20-2010, 06:46 PM
#65
11-21-2010, 03:42 PM
#66
Thanks for all the great tips guys. I have been practicing and this is how I have improved.
Rev matching In order to get to heel toe I have been getting a feel for matching the revs. I drove along the highway and just constantly change from 3rd to 6th keeping a steady speed (70 Mph) I found matching quite easy for 4th, 5th and 6th but 3rd a little harder to match. Also changing into up to 4th or 6th is easy to do with no clutch just a little squeeze on the gas to get out of gear then apply pressure over the next gear then as the revs drop it slides straight in. I found the easiest way to change down was keep steady pressure on the gas pedal and time the clutch as the revs increase.
Left foot braking I found an empty car park and drove around a tight circuit, quite quickly and practiced just using left foot braking. I liked the way the car felt, maybe a little more tire squeal but I felt more in control. I think with some practice I can really benefit from this. Also I am completely left side dominant (left handed and footed) so I have better control with my left foot.
Heel toe I am really struggling with this I either give far too much revs, miss the go pedal or make a nice blips on the throttle and forget to release the clutch. It is hard to practice this on a normal road typically when I brake and downshift I am stopping at a light so I get the clutch out then It goes in to stop and the junction.
Thanks for all the great tips guys hopefully I will be quicker at my next autocross event.
Rev matching In order to get to heel toe I have been getting a feel for matching the revs. I drove along the highway and just constantly change from 3rd to 6th keeping a steady speed (70 Mph) I found matching quite easy for 4th, 5th and 6th but 3rd a little harder to match. Also changing into up to 4th or 6th is easy to do with no clutch just a little squeeze on the gas to get out of gear then apply pressure over the next gear then as the revs drop it slides straight in. I found the easiest way to change down was keep steady pressure on the gas pedal and time the clutch as the revs increase.
Left foot braking I found an empty car park and drove around a tight circuit, quite quickly and practiced just using left foot braking. I liked the way the car felt, maybe a little more tire squeal but I felt more in control. I think with some practice I can really benefit from this. Also I am completely left side dominant (left handed and footed) so I have better control with my left foot.
Heel toe I am really struggling with this I either give far too much revs, miss the go pedal or make a nice blips on the throttle and forget to release the clutch. It is hard to practice this on a normal road typically when I brake and downshift I am stopping at a light so I get the clutch out then It goes in to stop and the junction.
Thanks for all the great tips guys hopefully I will be quicker at my next autocross event.
11-22-2010, 12:21 AM
#67
"Staying in the powerband is also a good thing imho."
That I'd have to agree with. On tracks where you go from a very fast straight to a slow, 2nd gear turn, there is a huge gap from 5th gear to 2nd. If you simply brake and take it out of gear, you have to wait till you get below 60mph (the approximate top end of 2nd gear) I've had the unfortunate experience of threshold braking from 130 to 50 and the car getting squirrely and really wanting to power out of it, but because I simply left it in fifth there was no power (fifth gear at 4k-5k rpm's doesnt make nearly enough torque to help if you're going sideways.) So I tended to brake hard and pop it into 3rd, then down to 2nd.
I understand in theory the best way would just be to brake better and not get sideways. But it happens, and the feeling of having zero power at your disposal in such a situation, while still going 90mph, is unnerving...
That I'd have to agree with. On tracks where you go from a very fast straight to a slow, 2nd gear turn, there is a huge gap from 5th gear to 2nd. If you simply brake and take it out of gear, you have to wait till you get below 60mph (the approximate top end of 2nd gear) I've had the unfortunate experience of threshold braking from 130 to 50 and the car getting squirrely and really wanting to power out of it, but because I simply left it in fifth there was no power (fifth gear at 4k-5k rpm's doesnt make nearly enough torque to help if you're going sideways.) So I tended to brake hard and pop it into 3rd, then down to 2nd.
I understand in theory the best way would just be to brake better and not get sideways. But it happens, and the feeling of having zero power at your disposal in such a situation, while still going 90mph, is unnerving...
11-28-2010, 08:57 AM
#70
Ok I found a vid from RD Atlanta in which my tach can be seen. Watch it and see how little the rpm's change with my little technique.
Now remember I am NOT saying that heel/toe is not needed--its just to show that other tools do exist.
http://contour.com/stories/bmw-cca-rd-atlanta-2010
Remember this is just us having fun--nothing serious going on.
OD
Now remember I am NOT saying that heel/toe is not needed--its just to show that other tools do exist.
http://contour.com/stories/bmw-cca-rd-atlanta-2010
Remember this is just us having fun--nothing serious going on.
OD
11-28-2010, 07:58 PM
#71
I'm not saying its a common occurrence, and yea the brakes on the 8 are like dropping an anchor, but I can certainly report my *** clenched up reeeel good when I found myself sideways at the end of the Summit Point straight (hitting nearly 140mph mind you) and having something like 7 foot pounds of torque to play with haha cause I was at 4k rpm.
I suppose I shouldn't be using the throttle to get me out of that situation, anyway but...damn it's fun. And that's what I'm used to doing on the playstation :-)
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