Hawk brake info
09-07-2010, 07:57 AM
#103
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I ran 5 20 minute sessions this weekend on a set of HP+.
My GPS logger said I could just barely touch 100 mph on the longer of the two straights, so it's a slower course.
On (BFG) R-comps with an otherwise bone stock car, the pads were more than sufficient. Rock hard pedal all day, and a ton of confidence in the braking zones. After the first half of the warmup lap, initial bite came alive and the car slowed down like a freight train. I was braking far later than anything else in my run group.
I did have a set of DTC-60 in my supply box just in case, but didn't need them, and probably will put them up for sale soon if anyone wants them.
My GPS logger said I could just barely touch 100 mph on the longer of the two straights, so it's a slower course.
On (BFG) R-comps with an otherwise bone stock car, the pads were more than sufficient. Rock hard pedal all day, and a ton of confidence in the braking zones. After the first half of the warmup lap, initial bite came alive and the car slowed down like a freight train. I was braking far later than anything else in my run group.
I did have a set of DTC-60 in my supply box just in case, but didn't need them, and probably will put them up for sale soon if anyone wants them.
09-07-2010, 09:15 AM
#105
1% evil, 99% hot gas.
iTrader: (21)
For the people who think that just because you can activate the abs, that you are 1: pushing the brakes, and 2: generating enough brake torque. I suggest you tr braking latter, don't coast between gas and brake and apply the brakes harder, don't let up just because the abs activates and reduce the time between brake and gas. If you work on these things you will find that you can brake latter, you will generate a lot of heat in the brakes and reduce your lap times by seconds.
When you get into ABS it means the braking system is capable of generating more braking torque than the tires have grip, meaning that your braking system is more than capable of slowing the car down as quickly as physically possible.
If you trigger the ABS when slowing for a corner, it means you are at the maximum possible deceleration the car is capable of producing. If you don't tickle the ABS, you are not at the maximum deceleration.
If you are already going deep enough to where you are braking so hard to make the corner that the ABS is activating and "brake later" as you suggest, you will find yourself in the grass or in the wall.
Clear?
Absolutely true you should not let off the brakes just because the ABS activates. Also very true you shouldn't coast between brake and gas for best lap times. Don't know where you read anybody saying either of those was a good idea.
09-07-2010, 09:48 AM
#106
8 20 minute sessions at Inde this weekend.
Maximum speed in the straight is 117 MPH. 4 or 5 very hard braking zones.
Brand new HP+ all the way around.
Always had full braking capability. Brakes got "hot", but not smoking significantly.
Only used up 30% of the pads at most with no measurable rotor wear.
Maximum speed in the straight is 117 MPH. 4 or 5 very hard braking zones.
Brand new HP+ all the way around.
Always had full braking capability. Brakes got "hot", but not smoking significantly.
Only used up 30% of the pads at most with no measurable rotor wear.
09-07-2010, 12:14 PM
#107
Highway, I don't know what you're experience level is, but if you get into ABS it absolutely means you are "pushing" the brakes and generating enough braking torque.
When you get into ABS it means the braking system is capable of generating more braking torque than the tires have grip, meaning that your braking system is more than capable of slowing the car down as quickly as physically possible.
If you trigger the ABS when slowing for a corner, it means you are at the maximum possible deceleration the car is capable of producing. If you don't tickle the ABS, you are not at the maximum deceleration.
If you are already going deep enough to where you are braking so hard to make the corner that the ABS is activating and "brake later" as you suggest, you will find yourself in the grass or in the wall.
Clear?
Absolutely true you should not let off the brakes just because the ABS activates. Also very true you shouldn't coast between brake and gas for best lap times. Don't know where you read anybody saying either of those was a good idea.
When you get into ABS it means the braking system is capable of generating more braking torque than the tires have grip, meaning that your braking system is more than capable of slowing the car down as quickly as physically possible.
If you trigger the ABS when slowing for a corner, it means you are at the maximum possible deceleration the car is capable of producing. If you don't tickle the ABS, you are not at the maximum deceleration.
If you are already going deep enough to where you are braking so hard to make the corner that the ABS is activating and "brake later" as you suggest, you will find yourself in the grass or in the wall.
Clear?
Absolutely true you should not let off the brakes just because the ABS activates. Also very true you shouldn't coast between brake and gas for best lap times. Don't know where you read anybody saying either of those was a good idea.
Just try it some time. Find a safe straight flat road and mark a line or use a cone and test your 60-0 stopping distance. Try getting all the wheels into abs and your stopping distance will drop by 5-15%.
09-07-2010, 12:45 PM
#108
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You could do it if you are on street or slightly better than street pads. You can't do that with race pads as you might engage in things like ice mode or have the car rock you back and forth due to the pads biting so hard. Also unless your car is screwed up, I highly doubt you are locking up just the rears. I can't picture any stock cars want to have the rears lock up before the fronts under any circumstances.
09-07-2010, 02:34 PM
#109
You could do it if you are on street or slightly better than street pads. You can't do that with race pads as you might engage in things like ice mode or have the car rock you back and forth due to the pads biting so hard. Also unless your car is screwed up, I highly doubt you are locking up just the rears. I can't picture any stock cars want to have the rears lock up before the fronts under any circumstances.
Ice mode? Is that DSC, I don't have that on my 07 sport but it won't effect your stopping distance.
This thread was started by a RX8 race car driver and included some good information about hawk pads and how to select the appropriate pad and it's turned into a garbage thread with too many people acting as experts because they think they are fast during a HPDE track day.
I run race car lap times at my home track and it's because I out brake and out corner nearly every car I have ran with. That's my experience, and all I am saying is Don't be satisfied with your performance based on Abs Activation and go out try to push them harder and take temp readings (like eric suggested) and select the appropriate pad for your driving.
There is no one correct pad for all drivers/track/car setup. Every driver/car/track is different, that's why data collection is required.
09-07-2010, 02:54 PM
#110
Momentum Keeps Me Going
Anyone inferring that being able to go into ABS using a certain brake pad is evidence that any other pad for a typical HPDE driver is a waste because all they can do is activate ABS too, but cost more, is simply wrong-headed thinking. It’s like saying that the NA RENESIS as delivered by Mazda has the best, most optimized power delivery and the typical HPDE driver would not appreciate better response. Just try ask anyone who had used any of the ECU mods available if they would prefer to go back to the standard ECU power delivery. Even though the standard "power under the curve" HP attainable is approximately the same, the way the power is put down “under the curve” is vastly different. So their answer would surely be "Are you kidding??"
Likewise (and assuming the pad doesn't melt, destroy itself, or fade during hard use) the "under the curve" performance of a brake pad, not whether it can go into ABS, is where the enhanced performance is with different pads, and what you pay for. Going into ABS is an ON/OFF experience, and not being able to do that has to be one of, if not the crudest metric to judge pad suitability. Not only is it a “taken for granted” capability in most any car (or why have ABS in most any production car?), but it’s application in the braking cycle is subject to tire traction/friction, track conditions, and temperature which can vary greatly and have nothing to do with the pad. Moreover, ABS has little place other than threshold braking. For example, trail braking, something a HPDE student might want to learn and perfect, does not require ABS. Trail braking does however require you to maintain that fine line of brake pressure and balance under adverse conditions. Pads can play an integral part in that equation that leads to successful trail braking coming into turns. Other important pad performance factors are initial bite, working torque levels, modulation characteristics during a brake cycle, and whether the pads give consistent results as they heat up.
Moreover, ANY track driver, whether HPDE beginner, advanced, or true race driver, can appreciate "under the curve" braking differences. These advantages and enhanced confidence factors are well within the reach of the “average” HPDE student. The performance attributes of pad design are plainly noticeable and can be used to decrease overall lap times, plus general track skill development, not to mention the increased confidence and ability to maintain a safe attitude on track with others braking all around you.
To deny this and boost about a basic pad like the HP+: "So there is zero benefit in a more-expensive, higher-torque pad in my application", and "is more than capable of slowing the car down as quickly as physically possible" is simply sticking you head in the sand and and denying what others have experienced. Don’t you owe it to yourself to give it a try and see why there is disagreement here? Remember, many of us have been where some of you are now, thinking that that’s all there is. Well some of us are here to tell you there is more. Think about it....or not ...it's up to you.
PS. I''m not posting here just be disagreeable, to insult anyones intelligence, or simply be provocative, but rather to try and give people some perspective and experience they may not have had the time or opportunity or money to experience themselves. So if you want to flame away, feel free, but it really doesn't change what I know from my own 1st hand experience, in this case with HP+ pads and then others immediately after them. Peace.
Likewise (and assuming the pad doesn't melt, destroy itself, or fade during hard use) the "under the curve" performance of a brake pad, not whether it can go into ABS, is where the enhanced performance is with different pads, and what you pay for. Going into ABS is an ON/OFF experience, and not being able to do that has to be one of, if not the crudest metric to judge pad suitability. Not only is it a “taken for granted” capability in most any car (or why have ABS in most any production car?), but it’s application in the braking cycle is subject to tire traction/friction, track conditions, and temperature which can vary greatly and have nothing to do with the pad. Moreover, ABS has little place other than threshold braking. For example, trail braking, something a HPDE student might want to learn and perfect, does not require ABS. Trail braking does however require you to maintain that fine line of brake pressure and balance under adverse conditions. Pads can play an integral part in that equation that leads to successful trail braking coming into turns. Other important pad performance factors are initial bite, working torque levels, modulation characteristics during a brake cycle, and whether the pads give consistent results as they heat up.
Moreover, ANY track driver, whether HPDE beginner, advanced, or true race driver, can appreciate "under the curve" braking differences. These advantages and enhanced confidence factors are well within the reach of the “average” HPDE student. The performance attributes of pad design are plainly noticeable and can be used to decrease overall lap times, plus general track skill development, not to mention the increased confidence and ability to maintain a safe attitude on track with others braking all around you.
To deny this and boost about a basic pad like the HP+: "So there is zero benefit in a more-expensive, higher-torque pad in my application", and "is more than capable of slowing the car down as quickly as physically possible" is simply sticking you head in the sand and and denying what others have experienced. Don’t you owe it to yourself to give it a try and see why there is disagreement here? Remember, many of us have been where some of you are now, thinking that that’s all there is. Well some of us are here to tell you there is more. Think about it....or not ...it's up to you.
PS. I''m not posting here just be disagreeable, to insult anyones intelligence, or simply be provocative, but rather to try and give people some perspective and experience they may not have had the time or opportunity or money to experience themselves. So if you want to flame away, feel free, but it really doesn't change what I know from my own 1st hand experience, in this case with HP+ pads and then others immediately after them. Peace.
Last edited by Spin9k; 09-08-2010 at 04:08 AM.
09-07-2010, 07:11 PM
#111
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What are you talking about? All cars nose dive under braking, some are worse than others. Why do you think manufactures install bigger brakes in front and usually bias the system all the way to the front (ask Miata guys). Do you think they would put themselves in a situation where a driver can lock up the rears simply by hitting the brakes hard?
Ice mode is an annoying feature that most modern cars have on the ABS system. Some mods/cars are worse than others. The RX-8 one is pretty tamed, but you can still activate it with really good brake pads. Ice-mode is where your brakes will pulsate SLOWLY when you stomp on it, compare to regular ABS mode where the brakes will pulsate hard.
I don't think anyone is questioning the data (not me anyway) from the original poster , but you can clearly see HP+ has a very low operating temperature compare to a pad like Carbotech XP8 or XP10. Other than the difference in cost , I (maybe some others) believe there are pads that are better out there than the HP+. Heck, I will go further in saying that the cost difference is minimal as the Carbotechs are rotor friendly and will last SLIGHTLY longer than the HP+ (assuming you cook the brakes hard).
I also believe Wankerbolt is correct in saying that you don't want to overdo your brakes more than what your car/tires are capable of, but HP+ are so marginal that I really believe better pads won't hurt the vehicle. I also did see better performance out of my lap times and braking power with the Carbotechs.
I do have plenty of data to read from, but there is still enough variable that people will argue over it no matter what. The original poster listed the operating temps on the first post, try checking other pads and compare.
Ice mode is an annoying feature that most modern cars have on the ABS system. Some mods/cars are worse than others. The RX-8 one is pretty tamed, but you can still activate it with really good brake pads. Ice-mode is where your brakes will pulsate SLOWLY when you stomp on it, compare to regular ABS mode where the brakes will pulsate hard.
I don't think anyone is questioning the data (not me anyway) from the original poster , but you can clearly see HP+ has a very low operating temperature compare to a pad like Carbotech XP8 or XP10. Other than the difference in cost , I (maybe some others) believe there are pads that are better out there than the HP+. Heck, I will go further in saying that the cost difference is minimal as the Carbotechs are rotor friendly and will last SLIGHTLY longer than the HP+ (assuming you cook the brakes hard).
I also believe Wankerbolt is correct in saying that you don't want to overdo your brakes more than what your car/tires are capable of, but HP+ are so marginal that I really believe better pads won't hurt the vehicle. I also did see better performance out of my lap times and braking power with the Carbotechs.
I do have plenty of data to read from, but there is still enough variable that people will argue over it no matter what. The original poster listed the operating temps on the first post, try checking other pads and compare.
Stock suspension will lock up the rear brakes long before the front brakes because of the massive weight transfer to the front. Even with upgraded springs and struts the rear end gets light under heavy braking.
Ice mode? Is that DSC, I don't have that on my 07 sport but it won't effect your stopping distance.
This thread was started by a RX8 race car driver and included some good information about hawk pads and how to select the appropriate pad and it's turned into a garbage thread with too many people acting as experts because they think they are fast during a HPDE track day.
I run race car lap times at my home track and it's because I out brake and out corner nearly every car I have ran with. That's my experience, and all I am saying is Don't be satisfied with your performance based on Abs Activation and go out try to push them harder and take temp readings (like eric suggested) and select the appropriate pad for your driving.
There is no one correct pad for all drivers/track/car setup. Every driver/car/track is different, that's why data collection is required.
Ice mode? Is that DSC, I don't have that on my 07 sport but it won't effect your stopping distance.
This thread was started by a RX8 race car driver and included some good information about hawk pads and how to select the appropriate pad and it's turned into a garbage thread with too many people acting as experts because they think they are fast during a HPDE track day.
I run race car lap times at my home track and it's because I out brake and out corner nearly every car I have ran with. That's my experience, and all I am saying is Don't be satisfied with your performance based on Abs Activation and go out try to push them harder and take temp readings (like eric suggested) and select the appropriate pad for your driving.
There is no one correct pad for all drivers/track/car setup. Every driver/car/track is different, that's why data collection is required.
or with slimy overheated brakes........... Brakes need to work to activate the ABS
09-08-2010, 07:41 AM
#113
1% evil, 99% hot gas.
iTrader: (21)
To deny this and boost about a basic pad like the HP+: "So there is zero benefit in a more-expensive, higher-torque pad in my application", and "is more than capable of slowing the car down as quickly as physically possible" is simply sticking you head in the sand and and denying what others have experienced. Don’t you owe it to yourself to give it a try and see why there is disagreement here? Remember, many of us have been where some of you are now, thinking that that’s all there is. Well some of us are here to tell you there is more. Think about it....or not ...it's up to you.
The things that you talk about are mostly subjective. "Under the curve" doesn't really make sense here except as a subjective measurement. The level of confusion between objective and subjective measurements in this topic is surprising. Being able to get (front wheels) into ABS is a measure of whether the pad is capable of exceeding the available tire grip.
The only thing that matters for brake pads is stopping the car, on-command, reliably, repeatedly. Everything else is fluff. I have tried Porterfield, Performance Friction, and Carbotech (not all on the 8). I keep coming back to the Hawks because nothing else gives me the "stop right NOW!" braking torque, reliably, repeatably. Nothing else gives the same pad life, rotor life, or bang-for-buck. If you want to spend $500 for pads made out of Formula 1 pixie dust that do that, knock yourself out. I'll stick to my $90 pads that work just as well.
Another bonus: Hawks are insensitive to break-in procedure. You've seen the horrible problems in other threads people have have with breaking-in Carbotechs. Terrible deposits on the rotors. Hawks don't care. Just throw them on and go. Never any deposits, no banding, no glazing, no problems. I don't understand the haters.
09-08-2010, 08:01 AM
#114
Momentum Keeps Me Going
Thanks for permission on the pixie dust pads... where do I find them? 
09-08-2010, 08:14 AM
#115
1% evil, 99% hot gas.
iTrader: (21)
09-08-2010, 08:22 AM
#116
Momentum Keeps Me Going
Couldn't find them...so I guess I'll just have to stick with Cobalt Friction pads... ya know...the ones you haven't tried and dismissed yet as overpriced and underperforming??? 
.... but the "KaleCoAuto's Adjustable Powerbands" really sound like a steal...something the 8 desperately needs...
.... but the "KaleCoAuto's Adjustable Powerbands" really sound like a steal...something the 8 desperately needs...
09-08-2010, 11:22 AM
#119
Momentum Keeps Me Going
^ only problem with Carbotech, for those of us that use RB rotors, is they are apparently incompatible with RB rotors, totally muck them up as shown here https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-wheels-tires-brakes-suspension-55/racing-brake-2-piece-rotors-202891/page3/. Whereas Cobalts have no binder in them at all and cause no problems.
09-08-2010, 01:20 PM
#120
^ only problem with Carbotech, for those of us that use RB rotors, is they are apparently incompatible with RB rotors, totally muck them up as shown here https://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=202891&page=3. Whereas Cobalts have no binder in them at all and cause no problems.
11-07-2012, 06:00 PM
#122
Holy thread from the dead...I'll add my 2 cents. HP+ are not track pads. Just get DTC 60 F/R (or comparable from other mfg) and be done with it. Don't let the DTC60 dust get wet if you like your wheels.
I'd recommend the HP+ for autocross...great cold bite and cleans right off.
Also, I noticed wet braking distances are much better without activating ABS. Jury is still out on dry braking.
I'd recommend the HP+ for autocross...great cold bite and cleans right off.
Also, I noticed wet braking distances are much better without activating ABS. Jury is still out on dry braking.
11-21-2012, 02:47 PM
#123
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Now that I've found the pad(s) that I want to test out, I need to figure out what rotors to use. I take it from this thread that RacingBrake's rotors are the part of choice for the job?
11-22-2012, 11:58 AM
#125
That being said..the 2pc rings are made of different cast iron than the one pc ones...so can't really comment on them. I would expect them to last a lot longer than the cheaper ebay type rotors...and likely longer than OEM ones as well