TrackAddict

Why does everyone get so defensive? The real truth is the 8 is a great track car. So is the 350Z, Miatas, S2Ks, Corvettes, any 3 series, the list goes on.

When you start off doing HPDE events you find many instances of an RX8 reeling in much faster cars.When you get into HPDE3 and HPDE4 and you find yourself running with experinced drivers and instructors, you realize that the RX8 is good but not the beast you once thought it was. This isn't a bad thing, just the reality of the power/torque on tap. 190rwhp can only get you down the straights so fast and no matter how hard and late you brake, the gap you once closed in HPDE1 or HPDE2 is not enough to get you around the other guys sometimes. When I started doing HPDEs I was always one of the quickest in my group "embarrasing" 350s, vettes, 911s, and any thing else out there. As I progressed into HPDE3 and later into the instructor ranks, I find that those quick cars are now in the hands of drivers experienced enough to extract more of their potential. I still have speed to find as well.

As for brake fade with stock pads and fluid, I agree that a more trackable pad and high temp fluid is a good idea. But I have found that novice drivers don't use their brakes properly on track causing the fade issue to be exaggerated. HPDE1 and 2 drivers typically don't learn the brake harder for shorter distances = cooler brakes until they have ridden with an instructor who really uses up the cars braking potential.

Have fun and keep it shiny side up and stop taking offense when someone says the 350Z may be faster.

Spin9k

^
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\/\/ell said and exactly what happens in the 'real' world on a race track. No car is any better than it's driver, and not until the driver runs thru a car potential and bounces off that envelope can the real differences be discussed.

If you're not on track, you have ZERO chance of reaching those points except in a straight line.

So OK class - GO TO THE NEAREST TRACK for LEARNING - NOW!!!! Then come back and bitch or whatever and everyone will listen .

tmak26b

amen, but if you do get to a point where the drivers are nearly equal, the car will make a difference

SouthFL

I'm constantly running on track with a guy who's been in the same curriculum as I have over the past year. He has a 350z with brake (front BBK) and minor suspension mods.
When I was in a Stage II WRX Wagon (with suspension mods), we used to run neck a neck through the turns and down the straights, where he was able to brake harder and shorter in the brake zones.

As we've progressed (and I've switched to an RX8), we're still running pretty much evenly, except that he can slighty pull on my stock 8 down the straights and we're a wash in the brake zones (slight advantage me). If I run a cleaner line than him through the turns, the better exit speed almost cancels out any hp advantage and the pull is less noticable.

We're both on OEM rubber.

tmak26b

Your RX-8 runs faster than your WRX, it doesnt say anything about the 350z. If anything, he is probably not using 100% of the car. I have videos of my car blowing away from multiple RX-8s, but I know for a fact that the gap shouldn't be that big. Do some time trials rather than driving school, much better judge in what the car can do. Don't just look at one car too, look at multiple ones.

SouthFL

That's not my point.
My point is that both of us (350z guy and myself) have progressed at an equal rate in terms of skill and the cars as tools for use (all three mentioned- WRX, 350z and the RX8) on the track are almost a wash in the hands of similar drivers (in fact, my WRX was quicker on track- especially on the straits- than the 8 on all but the tightest of turns, but its OEM brakes wouldn't sustain hot lapping very well). Yet, I enjoy being on track in the RX8 over the WRX because of the 8's balance, brakes and sensory feedback.

When I was in race school (Skip Barber), similar cars being the Barber Dodge formula car were constantly driven fastest by the most skilled drivers in terms of talent. But, the fastest guys out there were the young guys (late teens) who had no fear- that was the intangible which differentiated the quickest guys from the fastest guys.

dannobre

iTrader: (3)

The young guys are only faster when they keep it on the track.......

I will often get passed.....only to have the guy blow out the next corner cause his entry speed is way too fast......

SouthFL

^
It was interesting to watch these young guys with no fear + no financial consequence (during the 3 day school there is no max $4000 damage fee for a wrecked car- they just hand you another car) to an off track incident go through turn 1 at Sebring ***** out with all 4 tires slipping at WOT in a controlled drift.
These same young guys I watched are making names for themselves in race series and a couple of them are sure to have careers in racing.

None of us in our street driven RX8's are going to go on track and show the limits of our cars while on track unless we're willing to see it go off track.

Going back to the bench race argument of the RX8 and the 350z- it's all relative to too many factors to be able to make a blanket statement that one would dominate the other. On a straight, the RX8 is down about 5 seconds in 1/4 mile trap speed to the 350z, so it would take a giftedly run line through a turn to come out with enough exit speed to cancel out that deficit.

All in all, I've had my fun in the 8 watching guys in Vettes trying to run my line through a turn go 2 off and overcook threshold brake zones when trying to use my brake point- but then again, it all goes back to the driver. Same Vette in the right hands will pounce on me through the turns and make me a small dot in the mirror down the straight.

It's all internet bench racing (myself included) on this thread.

Cheers.

PedalFaster

Really? In SCCA club racing, the 350Z's classed in T2, and is reasonably competitive there, if not the class leader. The RX-8 started life in T2, but was dropped to T3 when that class was created, which suggests to me that the SCCA thinks the 350Z's faster.

SouthFL

I can't argue with that.
But then again, look what's happening in Grand Am- but then again, those are Prep 2 RX8's doing well in GT (so there goes that argument ).


I was simply referring to average guys lapping on open track in their street cars though.

Cheers!

tmak26b

It's good that you are all constantly improving, which is excellent. Unfortnately , it doesn't say anything about the 8 being faster. The 8 is an excellent car, but the Z should have an advantage in 98% of the track. (I cant see the 8 keeping up with the Z short of something that is super tight). You don't have to tell me how much more fun the RX-8 is compare to a WRX, I already know that. There is a reason why I have a 8 and a Z in the driveway. I do have a SVX...

tmak26b

If you can't drive fast due to various reasons, please don't blame the car. It's not the car's fault that the other driver has bigger ***** than you do. After all, lap time is the best way to judge two cars in a head to head comparsion. If you can't drive it fast, leave it to someone who can.

tmak26b

You have to realize they are carrying 10-30mph faster than you are, why does it surprise you that you might be able to go deeper into the corner? It's not about anyone particular corner, it's what you can put down as a total package.

SouthFL

Lol!!!!!!!!!


Really? Good observation Capt. Obvious.

Hey guy, whatever. This all has no point. Enjoy the rest of the thread for me.

unsubscribed.

tmak26b

Yes, try racing with some real competition before you comment on how your car is faster...

SouthFL

Resubscribed....

LOL! I have to respond.

What the hell are you talking about? I am not saying my car is faster! LOL!!!!!!!!
The 8 is a slow car in relative terms. It is yet a wonderful track car! I lap with it on a recreational basis. In fact, I'm losing my SCCA regional competition license this year because all I have done is lap recreationally with it and I haven't raced all year! I wouldn't "race" anything in my RX8 because it's a street car with no roll cage and safety equipment.

As for "racing," my plan is to "race" in 2008 in NASA's 944 cup with my '86 944 which is my track car (once I replace the engine which blew last year at Summit Point). My plan was to "race" with the 944 this year.

BTW, I used to go to work in an 11 sec. car that would trap over 120mph at the track in daily driven form, so I have an idea what a quick car is. Do you?

What is your agenda in making these remarks?!
I make one comment about a Vette going two off while following me and you assume that I think I'm a bad *** driver! No! Lol! I get eaten up alive all the time on track by guys in all sorts of vehicles, but I also do my own share of passing slower guys (in all sorts of vehicles) also! It's all fun!

Lol! You're hilarious!!!

tmak26b

I meant no personal attack on your driving skills. I was purely saying your car is not faster than a Z or a Vette, sorry if you got that mixed up or I got you confused.

DPE

iTrader: (1)

While we're bench racing Zs vs. RX-8s, I can claim some relevant experience. This is of course not scientific proof of anything, merely a few observations.

Craig has an '06 350Z Enthusiast. It was on OEM tires (RE040s), has Koni shocks, a Whiteline adjustable rear swaybar, our prototype front BBK (Wilwood-based) with Carbotech XP10s all around, and a 3" JIC Exhaust and y-pipe.

I have an '04 RX-8 GT. It's on 245/40 Avon M500s, has Tokico D-specs with Tein H-techs, Whiteline adjustable sways front and rear, Carbotech XP8s all around, AEM intake, and MS Sport Exhaust.

We were up at Mid-America Motorplex a few weeks ago, which is a 2.2 mile track just south of Omaha, NE in Iowa. It is VERY flat, with 14 turns and very good pavement. It was below freezing the first half of the day, and just above freezing the second half of the day with a gentle 30-35mph wind. Really lovely, let me tell you. But by late morning the sun was putting some heat into the track, and within 2 laps of a given session you could run pretty much normally. Prior to that, be ready to do lots of sliding on cold tires . That thing you hear about 'summer' tires not being so grippy below 40 degrees or so? Yeah, that's right.

Anyway, this was essentially my first track day in an RX-8. I had it on track at Hallett for a few short sessions last year, but that day was cut short for reasons I'm 100% sure no one wants details on. At any rate, I've been tracking Subarus of sorts for the previous 5 years, and one could say the RX-8 is a bit different than a WRX or STI. Or a lot different. Point being, I was pretty slow because I'm not used to driving a proper RWD sports car, much less a car with a lot more chassis than power (Subarus are the opposite in that respect). Craig used to have an RX-8, and had probably 500-600 track miles in his on a few different tracks. And he has at least that many on the Z, probably more. I would consider us comparable drivers, but Craig has a lot more seat time in sports cars than I do (A Subaru, while fast around a track, isn't exactly a sports car), and is probably a bit more adept overall at getting the most out of a car that isn't a Subaru.

Before this gets too long, which may be too late now, the point is that later in the day we swapped cars. The approximate best times look like this:

Phil in RX-8 - 1:55
Craig in RX-8 - 1:52
(Yes, Craig waxed me in my own car )

Phil in 350Z - 1:52
Craig in 350Z - 1:49
(Yes, Craig also waxed me in his car)

So as you can see, given the cars that day, on that track, the 350Z was certainly a bit quicker. Given more seat time in the RX-8, Craig might have found another second and made it closer, but upon riding with him in the RX-8 even later in the day it didn't feel like there was a lot left on the table. There's always some left of course, as we aren't pro racers or anything, but given the constraints we were working in that was how it came out.

Times notwithstanding, the RX-8 is a MUCH better track car than the Z. Obviously won't get around a track as fast, but is much more rewarding to drive. The Z has crappy brake feel even with the BBK, and despite his being a 2006 with 10k miles on it it already has loads of knockback (front wheel bearings are probably getting loose). Not exactly confidence inspiring. But you should have felt it with the OEM brakes; scary! The motor is quite nice of course, and the steering feels decent, but you're just not connected with the car quite like you are in the RX-8. Just a lot more rubber bushings between you and the road it feels like. And in extreme maneuvers you feel entire sub-assemblies shifting around under there with groans and clunks. It's not a bad car, and is a fast car, but it's not an RX-8. And that's not just my opinion either; Craig will very likely be trading the Z off for an RX-8 within the next 6 months .

Spin9k

Interesting observations. I've a friend that also went from an RX-8 to a MS Miata and finally to a 350Z and after a few track events in the Z, sold it. He said it needed more money than he was able (or willing) to throw at it to be a good, safe track car.

More to the point he mentioned this 'knockback' and I questioned him about it as he said that it caused him to be entering a corner full tilt and have the brake pedal GO TO THE FLOOR, not terribly confidence inspiring.

I'd never heard the term and as he explained it, after getting the 'knockback' in the brake pedal, the rotors or wheels or something have twisted or bent and pushed the brake pads away from the rotors enough to cause the amount of pedal distance needed to get them back to the rotors to apply any braking force to exceed the pedal travel

He also talked about coming into a corner as he would in his RX-8 or MS Miata and having the front end totally wash out - as in going straight off the track!

I don't care how fast a Z may be, or how 'macho' it appears - those types of things could be why I noticed 350z's are typically no-shows at HPDE. I guess the amount of upgrades needed to make this a safe track car exceed the value received or so he seem to say. He sold it after only a couple months ownership.

As many have said - the RX-8 may not be the fastest, but it may be the funnest way to go around a track!

ZoomZoomH

iTrader: (1)

so, you guys are saying, the SLOWER CAR is actually the BETTER CAR?????

that doesn't make sense!!!!!

SouthFL

Knockback is probably due to the fixed brake caliper of the BBK in the 350Z mentioned. That's one good quality of a non fixed caliper (like the OEM RX8) is that knockback isn't an issue.

I agree on all parts that though the RX8 isn't as fast as the 350z, it makes for a great car for the person who wants a street car to lap on a roadcourse with as little modification and maintenance as possible (btw, I don't consider pouring oil in every other lapping session a maintenance issue, hehehe). This is the main reason why I purchased the RX8 after dealing with brake issues and suspension issues (as in needing to upgrade them) on a WRX.
"Slower" is funner and more rewarding for some . I've subscribed to that philosophy (for now).

Cheers!

kinchu007

iTrader: (1)

I had an STi and I never really liked the way it handled...I installed ZEAL coilovers, Whiteline sways and all kinds of bushings, but it still never felt quite right.

I completely agree with you SouthFL. There's no substitute for a car that just handles right and does what you want it to do. It's more rewarding than a car that's fast as hell but makes you struggle with the steering wheel to get it to do what you want.

Maybe I'm not a good enough driver to take full advantage of an AWD car enough even though I've owned 2 WRXs and 1 STi over the last 5 years.

Or maybe the RX8 truly does feel more precise compared to the popular AWD cars that are out right now, even though it is much much slower.

Spin9k

That makes sense. I couldn't quite get my mind around what was happening there..but yea fixed calipers would do that. Thanks.

tmak26b

It's all personal opinion. I only spent money on pads and tires and I have no trouble keeping it safe. 24 track events in 2.5 years, same bearing, is that a problem? Most bearing problems stems from the use of aftermarket wheels.

Knockbacks can happen to any non-floating calipers. STI, EVOs, they all do a little bit.

Spin9k

Yea he said he had put staggered 19s on his. You must be right about that.