FINALLY got the 8 to the track :D
05-29-2010, 11:36 AM
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FINALLY got the 8 to the track :D
Out of many previous track days in other cars, I have finally had the chance to get the 8 out there. Went out to Buttonwillow of Friday, ran config. 13 CW. posted up a best time of 2:11.886, I REALLY believe I could have broken 2:10 if not better if it wasnt for so much traffic and people not understanding how to point-by.
Couple things I've noticed, and noted to myself.
1- need more power
2- NEEDS better seats. (my knees are bruised from club corner @ 100mph)
3- need wider, stickier tires, right now running federal R-comps in a 245
4- Mid-heat, the rear brakes tend to act funny during straight line braking. First few laps are perfect, after about 4, braking in a straight line becomes iffy, the rear end gets kinda squirrely and wants to come around me, I had a similar problem when i had my Z31, the rear would get too hot and not cool quick enough, causing the rear to want to continue forward as the front slowed. I'm thinking some better rotors first, I'm pretty damn happy with my pad choice.
5- Need to find some downforce, thinking about the MS spoiler, or maybe ?. (110mph around riverside feels a lil loose in the back end)
Aside from those things, the car performed amazing, well past my expectations. I've done Streets, and Big Willow springs, Fontana's Roval, and Laguna. This was a first for me in the 8 and for buttonwillow. So I'm pretty satisfied with my times, there were a lot of people in much more expensive cars, putting down 2:20's and 2:15's.
Couple things I've noticed, and noted to myself.
1- need more power
2- NEEDS better seats. (my knees are bruised from club corner @ 100mph)
3- need wider, stickier tires, right now running federal R-comps in a 245
4- Mid-heat, the rear brakes tend to act funny during straight line braking. First few laps are perfect, after about 4, braking in a straight line becomes iffy, the rear end gets kinda squirrely and wants to come around me, I had a similar problem when i had my Z31, the rear would get too hot and not cool quick enough, causing the rear to want to continue forward as the front slowed. I'm thinking some better rotors first, I'm pretty damn happy with my pad choice.
5- Need to find some downforce, thinking about the MS spoiler, or maybe ?. (110mph around riverside feels a lil loose in the back end)
Aside from those things, the car performed amazing, well past my expectations. I've done Streets, and Big Willow springs, Fontana's Roval, and Laguna. This was a first for me in the 8 and for buttonwillow. So I'm pretty satisfied with my times, there were a lot of people in much more expensive cars, putting down 2:20's and 2:15's.
05-29-2010, 12:23 PM
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That's a very respectable time around BW 13 in a street car. I hear ya on the power and seats. I feel the same way after taking my new (to me) 8 to the tack last week for some baseline testing and a wheel and tire upgrade test (went 4 seconds a lap quicker by upgrading to 265/35R18 Bridgestone RE-11s and 18x9 VR.G2 wheels compared to the OEM wheels with Toyo T1R 225/45ZR18).
Regarding the braking issue you've described, sounds to me like you may be gaining confidence with each lap and attacking the braking zones harder and deeper (with possible trail braking?), leading to more and more forward weight transfer. This results in a light rear end and that twitchy feeling you're describing. It's a very common problem in street cars with relatively soft shocks and springs, which allow a lot of forward weight transfer/body roll during heavy braking.
If you're running a street pad on the rear of the car, it's also possible the pad is overheating and as a result you're losing rear braking power, creating more front brake bias and therefore the sensation that the tail of the car wants to overrun the front while on the brakes. You could try going to a more aggressive rear pad to see if it helps.
Downforce is an interesting comment. BW 13 does have some quick corners where DF will help, but I wonder if the MS wing really makes any meaningful DF. Keep in mind, if you add a rear wing you may end up with a high speed push/understeer condition since the wing will shift the aero balance toward the rear.
Regarding the braking issue you've described, sounds to me like you may be gaining confidence with each lap and attacking the braking zones harder and deeper (with possible trail braking?), leading to more and more forward weight transfer. This results in a light rear end and that twitchy feeling you're describing. It's a very common problem in street cars with relatively soft shocks and springs, which allow a lot of forward weight transfer/body roll during heavy braking.
If you're running a street pad on the rear of the car, it's also possible the pad is overheating and as a result you're losing rear braking power, creating more front brake bias and therefore the sensation that the tail of the car wants to overrun the front while on the brakes. You could try going to a more aggressive rear pad to see if it helps.
Downforce is an interesting comment. BW 13 does have some quick corners where DF will help, but I wonder if the MS wing really makes any meaningful DF. Keep in mind, if you add a rear wing you may end up with a high speed push/understeer condition since the wing will shift the aero balance toward the rear.
05-29-2010, 01:23 PM
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no, no trail braking. i used to trail brake in my z31, i found it better to NOT trail brake in this particular set up, its only in straight line braking, the pads are axxis ultimates, front and rear, and performed amazing until this started happening, in my z, i went to slotted rotors for the rear and it took care of it. right now ive only got slotted rotors up front, so, i'm going to go with some different rotors and see what happens. if it doesnt help, i might try changing to some carbotechs... possibly... i've heard that the MS spoiler provides a small amount of DF, which is what i'm looking for. i would absolutely LOVE if i could get APR to make a front splitter for me, they will do customs for the right price, if i could do that to balance the front DF with the rear, i would most likely run the apr gtc-300 or gtc-200
05-29-2010, 04:22 PM
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Interesting. Slotted rotors help deglaze the pads, so perhaps the rears are glazing and will therefore benefit from a slotted rotor. If you pop the rear pads out and look at their mating surface with the rotor, it's easy to tell if they're glazed (shiny and smooth looking, almost like they've been polished). If they are glazed, scuff them up with some rough grit sand paper and see if the brake balance improves. If so, you've found the problem and can fix it with a slotted rotor, just like you're considering.
Do you think maybe you're just attacking the braking zones harder each lap and that's why you're not noticing the light/active rear until 3-4 laps into the session?
Could also be that your rear tires are overheating after 3-4 laps if you tend to slide the tail end around a lot. This would reduced rear grip and potentially result in that twitchy rear end feeling while braking. 245's are a bit on the narrow side and in the SoCal heat I could see how the tires might be going off after 3 laps. I've never tried Federal 595 RS-R but since they're a 140 UTQG summer tire (not really a true r-comp) I would wager they're overheating in as few as 1 or 2 laps on a hot day. If you have a tire pyrometer, you can easily figure out how long it's taking before they're overheating (anything over 180 F is likely to be outside their optimum operating temp if they're similar to other UTQG 140 tires I've tested...ideal temp is likely to be in the 160 to 180 range).
APR splitter and GTC-300 would be a sweet combo for the west coast tracks you run at.
Do you think maybe you're just attacking the braking zones harder each lap and that's why you're not noticing the light/active rear until 3-4 laps into the session?
Could also be that your rear tires are overheating after 3-4 laps if you tend to slide the tail end around a lot. This would reduced rear grip and potentially result in that twitchy rear end feeling while braking. 245's are a bit on the narrow side and in the SoCal heat I could see how the tires might be going off after 3 laps. I've never tried Federal 595 RS-R but since they're a 140 UTQG summer tire (not really a true r-comp) I would wager they're overheating in as few as 1 or 2 laps on a hot day. If you have a tire pyrometer, you can easily figure out how long it's taking before they're overheating (anything over 180 F is likely to be outside their optimum operating temp if they're similar to other UTQG 140 tires I've tested...ideal temp is likely to be in the 160 to 180 range).
APR splitter and GTC-300 would be a sweet combo for the west coast tracks you run at.
Last edited by Modified Dave; 05-29-2010 at 04:27 PM.
05-29-2010, 10:44 PM
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I am making the braking zone my new bitch, and the tires did start to overheat, but not till around my 4th session, they finally bumped me up into a group with less traffic and quicker drivers, thats when the tires started acting up, not sure if you've ran buttonwillow or not, but club corner was a 100mph, almost 45deg. right hander, till the tires started getting too hot in the 4th session, then it became a 90mph sliding right hander :P The brake issue was from first session to last, but not starting till the around the 4th lap. I'm honestly really impressed with the tires, i used to run 245/45r17 kumho ecsta v710's on my z31, and these honestly perform fairly close, but then again, our suspension set ups are 100x better than that on my z31, so, maybe its the 8's suspension thats just making them look good. problem is, Kumhos = $300ea. vs Federals = $115ea. you can see my dilema
05-30-2010, 02:02 AM
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Hey man, I just randomly happened to come across your thread.. I was the guy with my dad in the Titanium Gray RX-8. It was nice meeting you and your car looked great out there!
Last edited by ~Rev Free~; 05-30-2010 at 04:19 AM.
05-30-2010, 10:28 AM
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If you are getting glazed pads, time for different pads. I'm running Hawk HP+ and HPS with ordinary non-slotted rotors and have never had glazing. Springs, shocks, and a good alignment took care of most of the squirreliness under braking.
Aero? Never experienced a need. Taking the kink at start/finish at VIR over 120 MPH (130 by turn 1), and going up the Uphill Esses at 115 MPH, I haven't noticed any specific "looseness". It might be there, but the car doesn't feel unsettled at all. Maybe aero would get me another 5 MPH up the Esses. That'd be real nice.
As for your knees, I had the same problem. The solution was generic feeBay pads, and they work very well. Note I have the cloth seats, not leather. With these pads, I have no problems keeping myself in position and no problems with bruised knees.
Door pad: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=130267389672
Tunnel pad: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=140404714423
The tunnel pad says it's for a Corvette, but like most significant feeBay sellers, he's lying. It's a generic, universal pad. I use it in my 8. The trick is to rotate it 180 degrees so the thick part is pointing towards the floor.
Here's another listing for the exact same pad, but claiming it's specifically for a Miata: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=140320739979
Aero? Never experienced a need. Taking the kink at start/finish at VIR over 120 MPH (130 by turn 1), and going up the Uphill Esses at 115 MPH, I haven't noticed any specific "looseness". It might be there, but the car doesn't feel unsettled at all. Maybe aero would get me another 5 MPH up the Esses. That'd be real nice.
As for your knees, I had the same problem. The solution was generic feeBay pads, and they work very well. Note I have the cloth seats, not leather. With these pads, I have no problems keeping myself in position and no problems with bruised knees.
Door pad: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=130267389672
Tunnel pad: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=140404714423
The tunnel pad says it's for a Corvette, but like most significant feeBay sellers, he's lying. It's a generic, universal pad. I use it in my 8. The trick is to rotate it 180 degrees so the thick part is pointing towards the floor.
Here's another listing for the exact same pad, but claiming it's specifically for a Miata: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=140320739979
05-30-2010, 11:37 AM
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Wankelbolt, thanks for the link to those knee pads. Awesome idea! Going to order me a set of those stat!
seidita84t, sounds like maybe it is a tire issue then (and yeah, I've been to Buttonwillow quite a few times), since it's happening in every session but doesn't show up until you're 3-4 laps in. That's a very typical timeframe for the tires to overheat and get greasy. Gotta love how inexpensive the Federals are though! If they perform anywhere near the 140 UTQG Bridgestone RE-11s I just tested, then for $115/tire they're a steal and a half.
I'm no expert but from what I understand the 8 does have excellent suspension geometry and should therefore make very good use of its tires. Plus it's a lot lighter than your old Z31, which means it'll be easier on tires and brakes.
seidita84t, sounds like maybe it is a tire issue then (and yeah, I've been to Buttonwillow quite a few times), since it's happening in every session but doesn't show up until you're 3-4 laps in. That's a very typical timeframe for the tires to overheat and get greasy. Gotta love how inexpensive the Federals are though! If they perform anywhere near the 140 UTQG Bridgestone RE-11s I just tested, then for $115/tire they're a steal and a half.
I'm no expert but from what I understand the 8 does have excellent suspension geometry and should therefore make very good use of its tires. Plus it's a lot lighter than your old Z31, which means it'll be easier on tires and brakes.
05-31-2010, 01:57 AM
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I'm really considering going to a set of nt01's or (if the wife let's me spend the money *fingers crossed) some bfg r1's... I think it would be great for my times. Another thing I may be looking into is a set of swift springs, from my understanding, the spring rate would br much more "road race friendly"
05-31-2010, 11:46 AM
#10
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I've been running a set of BFG R1s since last Summer and I'm quite pleased with them. They do like camber and behaved better once I got -2 degrees into the front and rear. Next up is a set of Hoosier R6 (friend is a Hoosier reseller). 
07-16-2010, 10:39 AM
#11
no, no trail braking. i used to trail brake in my z31, i found it better to NOT trail brake in this particular set up, its only in straight line braking, the pads are axxis ultimates, front and rear, and performed amazing until this started happening, in my z, i went to slotted rotors for the rear and it took care of it. right now ive only got slotted rotors up front, so, i'm going to go with some different rotors and see what happens. if it doesnt help, i might try changing to some carbotechs... possibly... i've heard that the MS spoiler provides a small amount of DF, which is what i'm looking for. i would absolutely LOVE if i could get APR to make a front splitter for me, they will do customs for the right price, if i could do that to balance the front DF with the rear, i would most likely run the apr gtc-300 or gtc-200
I dont know the opperating temp rang of the axxis ultimate pads. I use the hawk dtc-60 in the front and ht-10 in the rear. I would have gone dtc-60 all the way around but when I bought them the dtc-60 was not available in the rear. I would recommend the racing brake 2-piece open slot rotors all the way around. the 2-piece design reduces unsprung weight and improves heat transfer. IMHO the open slot is the superior rotor design.
With that said, I would be surprised that the rear brakes were getting too hot before the front.
Dont go the APR custom splitter route, come over to my new thread. I am having a splitter built for both the stock bumper and the MS front bumper https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-wheels-tires-brakes-suspension-55/gi-functinal-aero-parts-front-splitter-underbelly-pan-200996/
I am also going to have a complete underbelly pan made, an under engine pan (like the beat rush piece) and an aluminum undertray with uprights to replace the stock piece.
I run the MS rear spoiler and underspoiler. Believe it or not, the rear undertrat probably makes as mush improvment as the spoiler. But the spoiler does work, just not a lot. Depending on my level of rear grip after the splitter and underbelly pan, I might be going with the APR gtc-200 spoiler mounted to a second track only trunk.
07-16-2010, 10:44 AM
#12
The hoosier R6 is a fast tire and with your hook up the price might be ok, but I still cant stomach $1200 track tires when I can pick up lightly used 275/35/18 hoosiers off the koni/grand am series cars for 300-400 plus shipping. I have been running a set for about a year, 5 track days at about 2 hours of track time each day. They are still performing great, although I noticed they have become more senstive to tire pressure.
07-16-2010, 10:55 AM
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The hoosier R6 is a fast tire and with your hook up the price might be ok, but I still cant stomach $1200 track tires when I can pick up lightly used 275/35/18 hoosiers off the koni/grand am series cars for 300-400 plus shipping. I have been running a set for about a year, 5 track days at about 2 hours of track time each day. They are still performing great, although I noticed they have become more senstive to tire pressure.
I just got a fancy Longacre deluxe digital memory tire pyrometer for my birthday, so I'll be able to get some hard data next time I'm at the track. Where do you get the the GA take-offs? 275 is probably too wide for stock rims anyway...
07-16-2010, 11:13 AM
#14
They weren't cheap, but they were great at VIR. Based on wear, I think -2° might actually be too much camber. I just got a fancy Longacre deluxe digital memory tire pyrometer for my birthday, so I'll be able to get some hard data next time I'm at the track.
Where do you get the the GA take-offs? 275 is probably too wide for stock rims anyway...
I just got a fancy Longacre deluxe digital memory tire pyrometer for my birthday, so I'll be able to get some hard data next time I'm at the track. Where do you get the the GA take-offs? 275 is probably too wide for stock rims anyway...
With our multilink rear suspension, we dont need that much negitive chamber if you have good tires, sways and springs/shocks.
Yes a 275 hoosier wont work with the stock wheel. I run the rpf1 18X9.5 +45 and the fit is perfect. I get my hoosiers from Dean at Rehagen Racing. I dont think they use anything smaller then the 275 but I know you can find smaller sizes from other teams.
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