Dsc
03-02-2008, 12:33 AM
#76
there is not talking down..
here is how it works, in simple terms.. and i have tested this stuff..
if i push the button down once the dsc is disabled.. it kills the cars yaw control..
if i hold the button down for 7 seconds. both lights go on and i can do a proper launch to test for 0 to 60 or 1/4 mile.. and the yaw control is still off..
i will tell you that if you try to do a proper launch with the tc on you 0 to 60 will be in the 7sec range..
now if you car does not work like this you have a freak car..
but you dont want to abuse you car to test, so it is hard to believe your comments...
now would you like to tell me my car does not work that way.. i think most would say that is how it works..
beers
here is how it works, in simple terms.. and i have tested this stuff..
if i push the button down once the dsc is disabled.. it kills the cars yaw control..
if i hold the button down for 7 seconds. both lights go on and i can do a proper launch to test for 0 to 60 or 1/4 mile.. and the yaw control is still off..
i will tell you that if you try to do a proper launch with the tc on you 0 to 60 will be in the 7sec range..
now if you car does not work like this you have a freak car..
but you dont want to abuse you car to test, so it is hard to believe your comments...
now would you like to tell me my car does not work that way.. i think most would say that is how it works..
beers
I know what and how traction control works. I don't get ANY type of traction control once my DSC light is off - there is nothing to become clear. I am no fool behind the wheel with plenty of racing experience with open wheel and cars - I am a skilled driver with a good feel for the car - I would know about it if my TCS was trying to manage the car. The way your talking it feels like we are driving two different cars.
Instead of talking down to me like I'm some kind of ignorant fool - how about answering the questions I posed to you?
Instead of talking down to me like I'm some kind of ignorant fool - how about answering the questions I posed to you?
03-02-2008, 12:45 AM
#78
03-02-2008, 12:48 AM
#79
yep,
and it does not work that way on my car.. my posts are pretty clear i think..
you are jdm i recall..
go out to you car, push the button once. note what happens..
turn the car off. turn it on again. hold the button down for 7 seconds,l note what happens..
you do not need to drive it, just tell me what lights light up..
beers
and it does not work that way on my car.. my posts are pretty clear i think..
you are jdm i recall..
go out to you car, push the button once. note what happens..
turn the car off. turn it on again. hold the button down for 7 seconds,l note what happens..
you do not need to drive it, just tell me what lights light up..
beers
03-02-2008, 01:09 AM
#82
well to all,
just reread the owners manual.. and it does not explain it all as i mentioned in an above post..
the info i give came from the rx8 club many years ago..
the dsc and tc work as i say they do..
one button push will display the dsc light.. if you hold it down for 7 sec you will get the dsc light, and the squiggly tire..
if you are afraid to try how it works, dont post that it does not!!!!
beers
just reread the owners manual.. and it does not explain it all as i mentioned in an above post..
the info i give came from the rx8 club many years ago..
the dsc and tc work as i say they do..
one button push will display the dsc light.. if you hold it down for 7 sec you will get the dsc light, and the squiggly tire..
if you are afraid to try how it works, dont post that it does not!!!!
beers
03-02-2008, 01:15 AM
#84
Now seeing as I started up my stone cold baby just for you I want you to do something for me
Get your car on some grass (the road if you want to wear out your tyres some more) then try to spin the tyres .
Now push DSC OFF once and do it again . Tell me what happens .....
heh - was thinking - if I flood it for the first time ever It would be funny way to do it .
Get your car on some grass (the road if you want to wear out your tyres some more) then try to spin the tyres .
Now push DSC OFF once and do it again . Tell me what happens .....
heh - was thinking - if I flood it for the first time ever It would be funny way to do it .
03-02-2008, 01:26 AM
#85
Now seeing as I started up my stone cold baby just for you I want you to do something for me
Get your car on some grass (the road if you want to wear out your tyres some more) then try to spin the tyres .
Now push DSC OFF once and do it again . Tell me what happens .....
heh - was thinking - if I flood it for the first time ever It would be funny way to do it .
Get your car on some grass (the road if you want to wear out your tyres some more) then try to spin the tyres .
Now push DSC OFF once and do it again . Tell me what happens .....
heh - was thinking - if I flood it for the first time ever It would be funny way to do it .
i can launch as hard as i want, in grass or perfect pavement.. and it is going to kill the launch / wheel spin, it will bog, and waste a second of my life...
if i want to do a 0 to 60 run in lets say, 6.05 sec. i have to hold the button down for 7 sec. both lights come on.. and bingo.. it works..
works best with ~ 24lbs of air in the tires, and the outside temp in the 80s.. rear shocks set on soft.
beers
03-02-2008, 02:08 AM
#88
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well to all,
just reread the owners manual.. and it does not explain it all as i mentioned in an above post..
the info i give came from the rx8 club many years ago..
the dsc and tc work as i say they do..
one button push will display the dsc light.. if you hold it down for 7 sec you will get the dsc light, and the squiggly tire..
if you are afraid to try how it works, dont post that it does not!!!!
beers
just reread the owners manual.. and it does not explain it all as i mentioned in an above post..
the info i give came from the rx8 club many years ago..
the dsc and tc work as i say they do..
one button push will display the dsc light.. if you hold it down for 7 sec you will get the dsc light, and the squiggly tire..
if you are afraid to try how it works, dont post that it does not!!!!
beers
If I turn DCS off and launch the car, I don't get any bogging - just some wheel hop sometimes. You would think I would also be bogging when spinning the car with donuts and 180's? With DSC on, the car bogs while it fights to regain traction, and off I go. I don't need to hold the DSC for 7 seconds to stop TCS from kicking in.
Now would you like to tell me my car doesn't work that way?
In your experiences, are you only seeing a difference in your 0-60 times? What other differences do you see from a drivers stand point? Are you able to spin the wheels at all with DSC off (pressed)? Does your TCS light ever come on when your DSC is switched off (pressed)?
Last edited by Mobile; 03-02-2008 at 03:01 AM.
03-02-2008, 02:30 AM
#89
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There's a Drift day starting in March at the Evergreen Raceway i think if not April. I'll data log 3 laps with DSC off, then another 3 with DSC & TCS off. This really is the only way to confirm without praying a Mazda Engineer chimes in, or if somebody happens to have a whitepaper to the DSC controller (TCS function & DSC are combined into 1 Controller when i looked at the Service Manual).
. I think we can confirm now that at least some form of TCS is switched off by just pressing - both the owners manual and service manual indicate this. Thank you for the service manual link - that's fantastic!Previous forum members have reported slower launches with TCS on, and a better response time with both systems off. Why you haven't? couldn't tell you, it is odd... The PCM flash for Canada is different then Japan,EU & USA... so it can't be ruled out. Comparitively it looks like yours is set to be completely off when the DSC is off... depending on how you look at it can't complain right? In a ratio your case appears to be unique. Now hopefully i'll remember to bring the logger & laptop that day 
- especially with my own experiences being so contrary to what some are saying. It's hard to weed out the people who can actually feel the changes to the characteristics of the car, and those that think they can. I'm sure you know what I mean.
You're right, I definitely can't complain - but when I keep reading about this elusive 7 second magical enhancement I get interested and hope that as a forum we can get to the bottom of it. There are not many major topics regarding the mechanics of the RX8 that haven't already been solidified through discussion - hence the predisposition of forum members to yell search all the time!
Last edited by Mobile; 03-02-2008 at 03:12 AM.
03-02-2008, 03:46 AM
#90
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....
Yeah.. i have theories that the tolerance value gets increased when the DSC is off, as others have surmised. But the only way to find out is to log it to see what the PCM is doing. Swoopes recommendation of doing 0-60's back to back would adhere the same results...
03-02-2008, 11:51 AM
#91
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swoope said he feels the car bog as TC kicks in when his DSC system is off (by pressing) - never mind the times, is this something you can duplicate?
It should be pretty easy for you guys to test if you TC light ever comes on when DSC is off (by pressing).
Last edited by Mobile; 03-02-2008 at 12:37 PM.
03-02-2008, 12:23 PM
#92
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I have been doing some more reading in the service manual.
The squiggly line light that we have been calling the TC light is actually called the DSC Indicator light. The one that shows up after you press the DSC off switch is called the DSC Off light. According to the service manual, if you get a DSC indicator light while DSC is off - you have a problem. This is not normal operation. The troubleshooting goes on to list possible shorts in the system or someone holding down the DCS light for more the 5 seconds.
All of this supports the fact that this car's TC is incorporating into DSC, and once you press the DSC off button - everything is switched off. There is no need to hold. In fact there is not even a TC indicator light - that is your DSC indicator light.
Direct quote from the service manual:
"DSC system function contains traction control function"
That should be enough to convince those on the other side of the fence otherwise. Holding down the DSC button does nothing to change the characteristics of the car. All you are doing is putting the DSC into a error condition, which is why the DSC indicator light illuminates - something that should only happen when DSC/TC is activated.
The squiggly line light that we have been calling the TC light is actually called the DSC Indicator light. The one that shows up after you press the DSC off switch is called the DSC Off light. According to the service manual, if you get a DSC indicator light while DSC is off - you have a problem. This is not normal operation. The troubleshooting goes on to list possible shorts in the system or someone holding down the DCS light for more the 5 seconds.
All of this supports the fact that this car's TC is incorporating into DSC, and once you press the DSC off button - everything is switched off. There is no need to hold. In fact there is not even a TC indicator light - that is your DSC indicator light.
Direct quote from the service manual:
"DSC system function contains traction control function"
That should be enough to convince those on the other side of the fence otherwise. Holding down the DSC button does nothing to change the characteristics of the car. All you are doing is putting the DSC into a error condition, which is why the DSC indicator light illuminates - something that should only happen when DSC/TC is activated.
Last edited by Mobile; 03-02-2008 at 12:34 PM.
03-02-2008, 12:35 PM
#93
Wow, haven't checked this thread in a while. Lots of posts.
From the best I can tell, there must be a difference between the Canadian and US models. Mine is a Canadian model, and there is NO TCS or DSC with the button pushed once.
Where I drive, there has been snow on the roads for the last 3 months. I drive with the button pushed once and have been doing 'testing' for the last 4000km. With the button pushed once, there is no TC on my car. I can rev the car up from a stand still, and when I let go of the clutch, tons of wheel spin. If I launch lightly and don't spin the wheels, and then give it a little throttle, I still get lots of wheel spin. If the throttle by wire signal was still being controlled, I should not be able to do this.
Mobile appears to be from BC, so probably a Canadian car (unless imported), mine is a Canadian model. Does anyone who appears to have a two stage disable system have a Canadian model? Perhaps we can find a pattern.
From the best I can tell, there must be a difference between the Canadian and US models. Mine is a Canadian model, and there is NO TCS or DSC with the button pushed once.
Where I drive, there has been snow on the roads for the last 3 months. I drive with the button pushed once and have been doing 'testing' for the last 4000km. With the button pushed once, there is no TC on my car. I can rev the car up from a stand still, and when I let go of the clutch, tons of wheel spin. If I launch lightly and don't spin the wheels, and then give it a little throttle, I still get lots of wheel spin. If the throttle by wire signal was still being controlled, I should not be able to do this.
Mobile appears to be from BC, so probably a Canadian car (unless imported), mine is a Canadian model. Does anyone who appears to have a two stage disable system have a Canadian model? Perhaps we can find a pattern.
03-02-2008, 12:37 PM
#94
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Wow, haven't checked this thread in a while. Lots of posts.
From the best I can tell, there must be a difference between the Canadian and US models. Mine is a Canadian model, and there is NO TCS or DSC with the button pushed once.
Where I drive, there has been snow on the roads for the last 3 months. I drive with the button pushed once and have been doing 'testing' for the last 4000km. With the button pushed once, there is no TC on my car. I can rev the car up from a stand still, and when I let go of the clutch, tons of wheel spin. If I launch lightly and don't spin the wheels, and then give it a little throttle, I still get lots of wheel spin. If the throttle by wire signal was still being controlled, I should not be able to do this.
Mobile appears to be from BC, so probably a Canadian car (unless imported), mine is a Canadian model. Does anyone who appears to have a two stage disable system have a Canadian model? Perhaps we can find a pattern.
From the best I can tell, there must be a difference between the Canadian and US models. Mine is a Canadian model, and there is NO TCS or DSC with the button pushed once.
Where I drive, there has been snow on the roads for the last 3 months. I drive with the button pushed once and have been doing 'testing' for the last 4000km. With the button pushed once, there is no TC on my car. I can rev the car up from a stand still, and when I let go of the clutch, tons of wheel spin. If I launch lightly and don't spin the wheels, and then give it a little throttle, I still get lots of wheel spin. If the throttle by wire signal was still being controlled, I should not be able to do this.
Mobile appears to be from BC, so probably a Canadian car (unless imported), mine is a Canadian model. Does anyone who appears to have a two stage disable system have a Canadian model? Perhaps we can find a pattern.
03-02-2008, 12:41 PM
#95
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Wow, haven't checked this thread in a while. Lots of posts.
From the best I can tell, there must be a difference between the Canadian and US models. Mine is a Canadian model, and there is NO TCS or DSC with the button pushed once.
Where I drive, there has been snow on the roads for the last 3 months. I drive with the button pushed once and have been doing 'testing' for the last 4000km. With the button pushed once, there is no TC on my car. I can rev the car up from a stand still, and when I let go of the clutch, tons of wheel spin. If I launch lightly and don't spin the wheels, and then give it a little throttle, I still get lots of wheel spin. If the throttle by wire signal was still being controlled, I should not be able to do this.
Mobile appears to be from BC, so probably a Canadian car (unless imported), mine is a Canadian model. Does anyone who appears to have a two stage disable system have a Canadian model? Perhaps we can find a pattern.
From the best I can tell, there must be a difference between the Canadian and US models. Mine is a Canadian model, and there is NO TCS or DSC with the button pushed once.
Where I drive, there has been snow on the roads for the last 3 months. I drive with the button pushed once and have been doing 'testing' for the last 4000km. With the button pushed once, there is no TC on my car. I can rev the car up from a stand still, and when I let go of the clutch, tons of wheel spin. If I launch lightly and don't spin the wheels, and then give it a little throttle, I still get lots of wheel spin. If the throttle by wire signal was still being controlled, I should not be able to do this.
Mobile appears to be from BC, so probably a Canadian car (unless imported), mine is a Canadian model. Does anyone who appears to have a two stage disable system have a Canadian model? Perhaps we can find a pattern.
The service manual I have been reading from is US, and it clearly states TC is part of the DSC system. They are not separate. The squiggly light that people think is supposed to be the TC indicator is actually called the DSC Indicator light - and it only comes on when DSC/TC is activated or there is a problem (such as shorting out the system caused by holding down the DSC off button)
My post above contains all of the service manual info I just discovered ^^^^^
I think this is more about the placebo effect, and less about differences in cars.
03-02-2008, 12:41 PM
#96
Did you buy your car new? You're sure it's Canadian model and not a cross border sale?
How have you tested to see if your TC is still enabled? Dry, wet, snow, ice, straight line, turning? If you previously posted this, sorry, I didn't go back and look.
I was hoping to have found something here.
03-02-2008, 12:44 PM
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The DSC Indicator light (squiggly lines) is meant to only light when DSC/TC has been activated, it seems weird to think that when it stays lit (by holding DCS button) that now everything is off. That's what the DSC Off light is for. The DCS indicator light should only come on when DSC/TC is activated - it makes sense.
It doesn't make sense that Mazda designed a DSC/TCS system whereby the DSC Off light tells you that DSC is only part off - and the DSC indicator light that normally tells you when DSC has been activated when the system is on - will also tell you that DSC is fully off if it stays lit - on what planet does that make sense? That's what the DSC Off light is for!
Last edited by Mobile; 03-02-2008 at 01:04 PM.
03-02-2008, 12:56 PM
#98
Brettus reports no TCS or DSC with the button presses - so the theory that it's just Canadian cars doesn't hold.
The service manual I have been reading from is US, and it clearly states TC is part of the DSC system. They are not separate. The squiggly light that people think is supposed to be the TC indicator is actually called the DSC Indicator light - and it only comes on when DSC/TC is activated or there is a problem (such as shorting out the system caused by holding down the DSC off button)
My post above contains all of the service manual info I just discovered ^^^^^
I think this is more about the placebo effect, and less about differences in cars.
The service manual I have been reading from is US, and it clearly states TC is part of the DSC system. They are not separate. The squiggly light that people think is supposed to be the TC indicator is actually called the DSC Indicator light - and it only comes on when DSC/TC is activated or there is a problem (such as shorting out the system caused by holding down the DSC off button)
My post above contains all of the service manual info I just discovered ^^^^^
I think this is more about the placebo effect, and less about differences in cars.
When I first posted on this topic, it was more of a safety warning. I don't think that this is a dual stage system. If someone needs this system to drive safely, and thinks that by just pushing the button once, it will still intervene if they do something stupid they are mistaken. The other issue is that if you turn it off by holding the button down, you can't turn it back on easily.
If you're racing, hold the button down. I don't think it is any different, but locking it out doesn't matter as you're not going to turn it back on anyway.
If you want to try driving without it on the street, just push it once. It's the same thing (from my experience) and if you find you're in over your head, you can turn it back on easily (just don't try fumbling for the button mid spin
).
03-02-2008, 01:12 PM
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Ya, placebo is quite possible, but a couple of the people claiming a dual system have quite a bit of experience with the cars as well.
When I first posted on this topic, it was more of a safety warning. I don't think that this is a dual stage system. If someone needs this system to drive safely, and thinks that by just pushing the button once, it will still intervene if they do something stupid they are mistaken. The other issue is that if you turn it off by holding the button down, you can't turn it back on easily.
If you're racing, hold the button down. I don't think it is any different, but locking it out doesn't matter as you're not going to turn it back on anyway.
If you want to try driving without it on the street, just push it once. It's the same thing (from my experience) and if you find you're in over your head, you can turn it back on easily (just don't try fumbling for the button mid spin ).
When I first posted on this topic, it was more of a safety warning. I don't think that this is a dual stage system. If someone needs this system to drive safely, and thinks that by just pushing the button once, it will still intervene if they do something stupid they are mistaken. The other issue is that if you turn it off by holding the button down, you can't turn it back on easily.
If you're racing, hold the button down. I don't think it is any different, but locking it out doesn't matter as you're not going to turn it back on anyway.
If you want to try driving without it on the street, just push it once. It's the same thing (from my experience) and if you find you're in over your head, you can turn it back on easily (just don't try fumbling for the button mid spin
).Traction control IS a subsystem of DSC. Holding down the button only serves to throw the system into an error condition. If the DSC Indicator light stays lit - you have a problem. These are all facts. I think it's important as a forum not to spread misinformation.
03-02-2008, 01:24 PM
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Im new so cant confirm either way, but I can say this.
There is allot of snow here. If I just press the button once, I can spin my tires all day long (or until I run out of gas ) no bogging down, just spin.
There is allot of snow here. If I just press the button once, I can spin my tires all day long (or until I run out of gas
) no bogging down, just spin.