Chris_Bangle

iTrader: (2)

I have an 09 r3 with racing beat sways. The r3 came with bilstein hds from the factory. I am thinking about upgrading the springs or possibly going to koni shocks.

1) Anyone tried the racing beat sways / springs & hd combo?
2) same but with koni yellows?

The reason for considering racing beat springs is that they don't drop the car too much and may work relatively well with the hd shocks.

Anyone tried both combinations?
Is going from from bilstein hd to koni yellows similar of a jump as going from the stock tocikos to the hds?

I know koni yellows are the default choice on this forum. If I had a bit more cash and was sure I am keeping the car I would definitely switch to koni yellows but for now I wanted to get some feedback on the hd / rb combination. I can pick up a set of rb springs for 200$ and change them with the help of a friend (I bring the beer, he does the work). So I am not so much concerned about paying to change just the springs.

If I somehow manage to get the konis I may go with a stiffer spring but with the hds I don't think that would be a good idea.

From what I read, the series II requires a different rear koni shock. Any issues with how racing beat springs fit on the series II?

I use 225/45/17 conti spec hoosiers /contis on 17x9 rpf1s, carbotech xp10 pads. Tracks: Mid Ohio, Mosport, Calabogie and some smaller local tracks. No autocross. Car is driven fairly hard, usually do about 12-15 track days a year.

Thanks for the help.

P.S.

Another shock I looked at was the bilstein sport (b8) but for some reason unlike with other cars they are not readily available and cost allot more.

TopGear8

iTrader: (3)

I used the RB sway for 2 years, just switched to a PT and so far I am liking it better. As far as the RB springs...They are too soft, If your on hoosiers your going to want something stiffer than that. I'm running over 500 front and over 350 rear, and I race on street tires..

Chris_Bangle

iTrader: (2)

I sometimes use Star Specs as well, in 225 width. I just got a reply from Brian Goodwin and apparently the Koni shocks for series II are not even that readily available to begin with.

Any idea on how the stock hds would work with a stiffer / shorter spring? Would they work with something like the H&R springs?

GeorgeH

iTrader: (2)

Are the R3 Bilsteins rebuildable? If so, I'd save your money for a bit, and send them to Shaikh at Fat Cat Motorsports for a coilover conversion. His shocks work great - easily handle whatever spring rate you specify (and I agree that you need more than RB springs) and super comfortable on the street. They'd be non-adjustable but you won't care.

Chris_Bangle

iTrader: (2)

George, Thank you for your feedback. If I could afford doing what you suggested, I would already be on kw3s or koni / h&r (etc).

I am not going for the ultimate track set up just trying to gauge whether my idea of throwing some stiffer springs to go with the hds that are already on the car would work.

Anyone tried matching the bilstein hds to a spring particular springs (rb, eibach, h&r)? When searching, I found some conflicting opinions. Any fitment issues with series II cars, hd shocks and shorter springs? Any ideas as to why there seem to be no review for h&r springs on this forum?

If you don't feel like posting here send me a pm.

c0ldf1ame

iTrader: (5)

I thought R3 bilsteins are crimp tops, therefore not rebuildable, i could be wrong though

rebuilding the shocks only costs about 600ish, its actually much more affordable than buying certain low end coilovers

as to OPs question i think since racing beat has a pretty low spring rate and doesnt lower too much it would work perfectly with factory bilsteins. I have had koni yellows on my car before and honestly didnt like them too much, and i think going from factory bilsteins to koni yellows would be more of a horizontal move than upgrading.

I haven't heard too much about h&r on this forum, the default seems to be either rb or tein s and h tech, whats the springrate on the h&r?

Although if you are running hoosiers and xp10 pads you might really want to consider upgrading to a more track oriented setup, stock suspension is too soft and the extra grip and braking force will put more load on the suspension.

I am running 400lb front and 280lb rear springs on revalved bilstein HDs and ride quality is better than stock for the most part

Chris_Bangle

iTrader: (2)

How stiff can I go with the hd shocks without creating a 'mismatch'. How should I look at the various drops that each spring offers: rb: 0.5"/0.5", h&r 1.0"/1.0" and tein s tech are 1.4"/0.7"?

H&R and bilsteins are loved by bmw enthusiasts, should I try them out on the R3?
I am very far away from understanding anything in technical matters, so helping a technical imbecile is much appreciated.

I do not want to rebuild / revalve anything. Unless something unexcpected happens, I will either most likely get some springs to go with the hd springs (65%) or get koni shocks (35% - if I manage to understand just what kind of shocks I need).

GeorgeH

iTrader: (2)

There's nothing inherently wrong with any of the drops. It's more important to understand how the spring rates increase along with the ride height. Generally speaking, the greater the drop, the more spring rate you need to stay off the bumpstops and keep body roll in check.

Unfortunately, it is hard to answer with any certainty that one of the spring sets is "better" than another. At some levels, since as you say you are not looking to make a highly purposed car, you could choose based on some other parameter, like how concerned you are with appearance or ground clearance. Personally, based on my experiments in Solo, I'm skeptical about a spring that lowers the front significantly more than the rear, but that's just me.

As for your question about whether or not the R3 shocks can properly damp any of the above springs, I don't have first hand knowledge, but it has to be better than using stock shocks. A conservative choice would be to pick the spring set with the lowest rates. That would increase your chances that the shocks can control the wheel & body correctly. Like coldflame, I'm guessing the Bilsteins would work pretty well with any of the above.

Hope this helps, I'm sure others will contribute as well.

Chris_Bangle

iTrader: (2)

That is what I am thinking but admittedly I know very little on the subject. Maybe I will just go with the H&R and see what happens. Although commonsense suggests that I should just go with the rb springs as I already have their sways, which I assume are somewhat matched to the shocks and the h&r rates are not significantly stiffer.

Not many people have the series II car, even fewer have the R3 or have purchased hd shocks so there is not allot of help.

Thanks for your help George. I do hope to hear some more opinions perhaps from people who actually tried some springs with the hd shocks.

GeorgeH

iTrader: (2)

You are welcome. One other comment I'd make is to reinforce something you said - since you have the RB bars, getting the RB springs makes sense since they are (presumably) designed to work together.

You could also call RB and ask them about use of the R3 shocks with their springs. When I've called RB in the past they've been quite friendly.

olddragger

iTrader: (3)

suspenison works as a package deal. Suspension includes the tires. if you go with a hard spring set up and are running the R3 tires wheels on the street then it is going to be a little bumpy.

Bars play a big part in transitional loads. The RB bars/endlinks are great for the track day ho .
Shocks and springs are more important in the front to back loads and for surface irregularities. For very basic examples, bars will not correct chassis instability under braking or accleration. Springs shocks will have a much less affect on lateral transition of weight like through the s curves. Bars will not have much affect on high speed chassis stability....etc.

In our club we have some 09's running and their shocks seem to be much better valved than the S1 model oems. No squirrel tail braking movement etc. We do have some that run the basic bilstein upgrade shock on the s1 model and they really enjoy them. They are almost the same as the koni yellows. So I believe your R3 bilsteins will be ok to start with.
On my S1 model i ran for a couple years the RB sways/ tein H springs and koni yellows and it was a good package. It kept the slight rake in the chassis that this car seems to like. It also gave me plenty of suspension travel. I run hoosier r6's.

I also have a 2009 R3. I havent tracked it yet, but my gut feeling is all it needs are bars and springs. I am thinking of installing the Tein H's (the S's are too stiff IMHO and have too much front end drop) and RB bars on it.
It handles VERY well in stock form.
I am not familar with the type hoosiers you are running but I guess they are compatable with the R6?
We all usually stagger our brake pads also. xp 10's up front and 8's in the back or something like that with other brands?
anyway hope this helps. remember what suspension package works for one---may not for the other.
OD

Chris_Bangle

iTrader: (2)

Thanks Denny.

I emailed racing beat as George suggested. But I assume they are going to say that everything is cool and that I should just get their springs.

I have spoken to them on numerous occasions before and they are not always on point: I was going to order a flush from them and they only informed me last minute that 09 is different. Later on I was assured that I will be fine with Koni shocks as made for series I, only to learn from Koni that I need different shocks (not sure if all 4 or just the rears).

I am pretty certain that I will go with just the springs. Now the question is which ones. While racing beat springs should compliment racing beat sways it is not like an alchemical process happens when I use the two together.

Any downsides to just trying out H&R springs? They are not much stiffer than rb but slightly lower. Both offer symmetrical drop front to rear: H&R: 195/141 - Drop = 1.0"/1.0" , Racing Beat: 187/136 - Drop = 0.5"/0.5

How should I view the extra half an inch in drop from H&R and 5% increase in stiffness comparing to the RB springs? Can this raise the 'hitting the bump stops' issue George has brought up? Finally I think H&R springs are progressive and RB are not. What should I make of this for track use?

jrx13

Not tracking my 8, but I'm doing Swift springs on my Series II RX-8 (not R3) in a couple weeks. I already bought them. Their advertised drop is .8" front & rear with 207lbs front 129lbs progressive rears.

I wanted a subtle drop for the streets and hope to use the stock shocks since I only have 9000 miles on them. I think the Swift springs fits the bill perfectly and I got them for next to nothing! Next go around will be Bilstein PSS9s when the factory shocks do wear out.

TeamRX8

iTrader: (25)

https://www.rx8club.com/rx-8-racing-25/09-shocks-side-side-comparison-04-08-a-173887/

Chris_Bangle

iTrader: (2)

Thanks. Probably not going with Koni anyhow but I do believe they now make a modified rear shock for the series II car. Told Racing Beat about this, they apologized and said they will get back to me on the springs, etc. Guess there are so few series II cars that Racing Beat never got a question about the shock fitment nor did Goodwin.

Any thoughts on this --------- \/

1) Any downsides to just trying out H&R springs? They are not much stiffer than rb but slightly lower. Both offer symmetrical drop front to rear: H&R: 195/141 - Drop = 1.0"/1.0" , Racing Beat: 187/136 - Drop = 0.5"/0.5

2) How should I view the extra half an inch in drop from H&R and 5% increase in stiffness comparing to the RB springs? Can this raise the 'hitting the bump stops' issue George has brought up? Finally I think H&R springs are progressive and RB are not. What should I make of this for track use?

TeamRX8

iTrader: (25)

those springs are barely stiffer than OE, not even worth the bother of swapping them out

nobody makes a decent rate OE type spring short of of swapping to coilovers, the best bet is the Progress sport spring if you want to stay with a non-coilover setup

http://www.progressauto.com/products.../productID/616

Chris_Bangle

iTrader: (2)

Thanks Team.

Checked tirerack and they had a special on Koni shocks. They don't have the rears but I ordered the fronts. Hopefully they still have them in stock.

Will have to wait till Goodwin get the rears and buy those separately. Since I am no longer on bilstein hd shocks, the whole issue of going to lower stiffer spring is off. Goodwin also recommended the Progress Springs and they are quite cheap so maybe I will match those to Konis.

Thanks to all those who replied.

jrx13

Koni front struts are the same part number for S1 or S2. The rears are different. The Koni rear strut part number for S2 is 8240 1280.

olddragger

iTrader: (3)

Agree with Team---the progress springs look like the best choice?
Dont think you are going to run in to any bumpstop issues?
I dont think you are going to find that there is much difference in the koni's versus the bilsteins? Konis yellows didnt adjust well for me. Adjusting the rear is a PITA. Most track day folks just leave them on one setting and thats it. You can play with the fronts a little and they worked pretty good at the time. I do wish I had saved my money and had gotten a good coilover package earlier. It helps when one is available!
You know I have just gotten to be a cheap old bastard !
Hope to see you on track at some point?
OD

Chris_Bangle

iTrader: (2)

It is not like I need adjustability but the Bilstein sport shocks (b8) are expensive and need to be special ordered. I will be at Mid Ohio on April 1-3 and hopefully at Mosport on April 29th.

Road Atlanta to which you are close and VIR are two track I really want to get to so I am sure we will meet in the future.

jrx13

BTW the factory R3 springs are different part number than non R3 S2s. Nobody knows the spring rate differences it seems and if they are slightly lower. Also the rear bar is different part number too.

Chris_Bangle

iTrader: (2)

Thanks for the part number. Tirerack for some reason list the 8240-1227SPORT for the 09 sport rears and does not list any Koni shocks at all for the 09 R3 and all subsequent rx8 years. I spoke to them, they are going to inquire and maybe get me the rears.

As to the springs and sways for the R3: I tried finding out, calling mazda, mazdaspeed and even trying to locate people Jason Saini who had an r3 for autocross but eventually gave up with no result.

Where do I set the rears for Mid Ohio with rb sways and pt springs? It would have to be a compromise with Mosport which probably will take a slightly softer setting than Mid Ohio (in my limited understanding). Set up for r comps.

I will probably set them to full soft at the end of the season but will not adjust in between events.

Chris_Bangle

iTrader: (2)

Just spoke to Bilstein USA. They stated that the valving on the bilstein hds are the same as their sport shocks (only difference being that the sport is 15mm shorter). Given that Koni and Tirerack do not have a clue as to when the rear koni shocks would be available.

I am gonna stick with the bilstein's and order the PT springs or similar stiffness springs without a big drop (could not find anything up to now).

EDIT: I forgot about the mazdaspeed springs. Was there ever a conclusion to their real rate discussion. They only drop by 20mm so they may be ideal for the bilstein hds which according to bistein are suited for oem size springs.

EDIT x 2: Anyone tried AutoExe springs? Not allot of info on them, seems they are progressive which is not ideal but drop only 20mm

Anyone interested in the front Koni yellows I have coming in?

Chris_Bangle

iTrader: (2)

Got an update from tirerack: 8-10 weeks on the rear shocks.

How much does it cost to modify the S1 shocks to fit S2?

EDIT:

I checked Racing Beat's website and as a result of my inquiry they have updated the info on Koni shocks dividing them into series I / series II and series I that came with Bilsteins.

http://www.racingbeat.com/RX8/Shocks/14370.html

Here is an interesting qoute:

"First, there a series of errors in the 2010-11 Koni printed catalog, the part number listed for the 03-08 front shocks is incorrect, the 09-11 rear shocks are NOT externally adjustable as indicated, and the 09-11 rear shocks (8240-1280Sport) are NOT intended for use on Bilstein equipped cars...

Koni lists the 8240-1280 Sport as the correct shock for the 2008 Bilstein equipped RX-8. Per Koni, these shocks feature a perch setting that is 15mm higher and a 10mm longer shock body than the non-Blistein equipped RX-8 Koni shock (PN 8240-1227 Sport). At this time Koni does not list a seperate part number for 09-11 RX-8s that came equipped with Bilstein shocks."

I sent them an email asking to clarify this, still waiting for a response.