msrecant

FYI, the attached JPG shows RX-8 production and sales figures since the 8 was first released. They are compiled from information posted on the Mazda Corporate web site. Note that sales are cars sold by Mazda Corporate to their distributors with "domestic" being within Japan and "export" being international. It does not speak to the inventory on dealer's lots or to trade-in quantities.

What does it all mean ... hell if I know! Some observations FWIW:

1. The effects of the plant fire can be seen in Dec 2004 and Jan/Feb 2005.All but about 550 cars have been sold to distributors world wide. Corporate inventory is pretty much gone.

2. Sales slowed in late 2004 but that is not surprising considering the initial "rush" of car buying for a new model. There is certainly no indication of a radical "fall off".

3. I provided some Miata annual sales figures for comparison. It looks like Miatas took a hit from RX-8 sales. Also note that the 2003 RX-8 totals are for a partial year.

4. Based on the Miata sales history, I would expect the RX-8 production to continue as long as sales stay in the 30,000 to 40,000 per year range. That is unless there is some issue that makes the RX-8 fundamentally less profitable to produce than the Miata (which I can't believe).

I am also on the lookout for annual worldwide figures for 350Zs, S2000s and other cars comparable to the RX-8. I will post an updated chart if I find them.

Thanks to Alessandro for pointing me at the information on the Mazda corporate site.

salituro64

JPG is a blur

msrecant

Even when you click on the thumbnail to get a full size image?

SpacerX

Thanx for the data. BTW, not blurry on my monitor... :D Looking forward to seeing the other data points you mentioned. Actual end user sales (i.e., to customers) would be great, too.

alnielsen

iTrader: (4)

How do you sell an RX8, that only comes with summer tires, in the winter. Even without the plant fire I would expect the sales to go down. The Miata is a convertable. They don't sell in the winter ether.

RX8by

Open the zip file not the thumb nail.

msrecant

It's not winter everywhere. These are worldwide figures.

PaulieWalnuts

Something is strange there. To go from an average of 4,000 per month to a couple hundred per month in Jan/Feb of 05 is improbable.

msrecant

Not improbable. RX-8 production was halted because of the plant fire in the middle of December. It should restart this month. It looks like Mazda Corporate only keeps about 2-3 weeks of cars stocked in its pipeline.

PaulieWalnuts

So do they count the sales of leftover 04s for 05 monthly sales figures? If so then there's something wrong with the 05 numbers because there are plenty of 04s around.

Also, 10 dealers within 100 miles of me have more than 50 2005 8s. Most dealers worldwide I would imagine at least have a couple 2005s so how is it that there were only 55 8's sold worldwide in February?

zoom44

these are figures showing sales FROM Mazda corporate TO the dealerships. so there were only 55 sold in february because they didnt build any because of the FIRE.

SpacerX

This is the reason why I thought it would be interesting to see the actual end-user sales figures.

I've seen anecdotal data over the past year or so (you know, the press releases...) that just cover the month gone by, but it would be nice to compile and see it all at once.

zoom44

yeah epi- i was trying to make sure pauliewalnuts understood

Juxagent

i dont car if it dosnt sell; i dont mind NOT seeing many on the road

PaulieWalnuts

Ahhh, okay got it.

Juxagent - exclusivity is nice but if you don't care about sales then you and everybody else who thinks like you must not care if the RX-8 is cancelled and we never see another rotary engined car on the road again. If it doesn't meet goals (and it's not) as set by Mazda (and Ford who never wanted to revive the rotary in the first place and would like to get rid of it) the RX series and the rotary engine most likely will be dead permanently. The 8 is its last chance. If it meets/exceeds sales, the RX series will continue and probably expand into other models. Anybody who wants the RX line to continue should be evangelizing them to anyone who will listen.

It also kills me that so many hardcore RX-7/rotorheads bash the 8 and aren't smart enough to see that they're screwing themselves. No more 8 = rotary engine is dead = no tuners, dwindling parts availability, higher prices, and eventually the demise of this hobby.

Rant over.

SpacerX

Hey, Paulie, I'm not disputing your perception on this, especially since I've observed it from a lot of folks on the forum. I'm just curious to see the data that's elliciting the conclusion that the RX8 isn't selling well, beyond factors external to the market (e.g., the plant fire), or seasonal impacts (like the annual Winter slowdown).

The impression I'd always had was that the RX8 was continuing to sell very well (i.e., meeting sales targets that would sustain the product line and provide impetus for future products). The automotive press seems to lend creedence to the notion that the car is an absolutely outstanding vehicle. To wit: C&D's 10Best, among others.

FWIW, the RX8 is the first rotary-powered vehicle I've had the pleasure of owning and driving. I share your interest in seeing future rotary-powered vehicles from Mazda.

PaulieWalnuts

It is selling very well but it's not meeting Mazda goals. The US goal was 30,000 for 2004. Actual sales were around 26,000 which is decent but still short. I can't find the source of the worldwide figures but the total was about 10-15% shy of the goal. I'm not sure if that's a big deal to Mazda but if it drops to 40-50% of goal then there's a problem.

What bugs me is how many people I run into that want to buy an 8 but are totally misinformed by people who don;t have a clue of what they're talking about. A buddy of mine "read somewhere" that the back seats are unusable for adults and won;t fit a baby seat. I corrected that BS and now he wants one. Someone else told me rotaries blow up at 100,000 miles and they would never buy one. I asked where they heard that crap from and corrected that BS. Another guy read that the 8 got crappy gas mileage. Crappy compared to what, a Honda civic, or a G35 and 350Z both of which get similar mileage on average. There are too many mindless bashers and not enough evangelists.

Rant 2 over.

Ike

I really think the RX-8 is the rotaries last stand. Something tells me the RX-8 isn't a very profitable car especially considering the deals they were making even early on to move them out the door. Take a look at other cars like the 350Z/G35, WRX, STi, Evo, S2K, when these cars were released it was a couple years before you could expect any sort of deal on them or special financing. People were getting RX-8s near invoice weeks after release, now you've got people getting them for thousands under invoice. I've never seen a rebate offered on most of the other cars above, and even special financing took many months to be offered.

On top of that unless Mazda develops something to make the rotary less fuel hungry or gas prices go down sales will continue to suffer. How the RX-8 didn't end up with a gas guzzler tax I'll never know, but it was within 1 or 2 mpg of getting one and I think most agree that the EPA numbers are generous.

I doubt Mazda/Ford will nix the RX-8 in its current state, but when it comes time for a redesign unless a few things fall into place just right this may be it for the rotary. Personally I would have liked to have seen Mazda go with a lighter weight coupe for the rotary where the lower HP/TQ compared to the competition wouldn't have mattered as much, but maybe it would have been a dud sales wise due to it being less practical. However the Z hasn't been hampered much byit's lack of practicality sales wise.

Elara

Actually, sales are down on the Z almost as much as the 8- I actually wrote down all the sales figures for total sales this year vs last year last week (and promptly left the sticky on my desk where it's still sitting), and totals for both in 2004, and they are all down about the same. Z's is perhaps slightly less percentage-wise, but not much. And the Z was also being sold for substantial discounts a few months after it came out as well(we have Nissan franchises too, so I see what we're offering them for). And no, people were NOT getting the 8 for substantial discounts after release- if that were so, I, and many of the other people who got the 8 within a few months of it coming out, wouldn't have been paying MSRP, or over. It took about 6 months for any major discounts to be had on them. If anyone has a subscription to Automotive News, they can go look the numbers up (it's where I got them from). I didn't bother to check the other cars, however. Except I've been kinda following them all over the past 6 months, and store inventories on all of them are getting higher and higher. Nothing, of course, higher than the Crossfire, but they were all around the same levels otherwise. Auto sales in general just suck right now.

PaulieWalnuts

Much like the 8, Nissan has a bunch of new 2004 Zs in dealer iventory and is offering special financial incentives.

My Hefeweizen is empty. Time for another.

Ike

I know sales are down on the Z, it's also been around a bit longer than the RX-8. The Z had its run, but it doesn't seem like the RX-8 ever really had a run. The Z also outsold the RX-8 by thousands and combine G35 sales with it and it's a wide margin. You probably know better than I but even a year after reales Zs were flying off the lots in my area and there was rarely more than a few available at a time. I was led to believe from Nissan forums and from my former Nissan sales guy when I bought my Maxima that getting a Z near invoice wasn't happening since they have no problems selling them for higher. The Evo, STi, and S2K couldn't be had for below MSRP for several months after release, but they are lower production niche cars so not the fairest comparison. I know for fact that with the WRX they could barely make them fast enough and it wasn't til the end of the MY02 that they would deal on them and it was almost 2 years after release before special financing was offered. Also when I looked at RX-8s in August of 03 I was led to believe that getting one for 500 over invoice would not be a problem, this was just a few weeks after release... If people were paying MSRP up to a few months after release they were screwed.

My basic point is that it seems when Mazda offered the 4,000 rebate it was panic mode. I.E., we need to move some of these cars and fast. Has the Z ever had that kind of offer before, if so I've never heard about it. And I know for sure those kind of sales tactics have never have never been used on any of the other cars I've mentioned. For instance when I bought my WRX I had almost nothing to chose from of the 03s and the 04s had been released that week. In fact I bought the last white one in the entire state and the only reason it was still there was because it had 5k in dealer options.

Despite what people may think I feel, I really would like to see the RX-8 do well. I want to see an RX-7 or a Mazdaspeed version, I like that the rotary is unique and the variety it adds to the car market is a wonderful thing.

On a side note since you're involved in dealerships Elara. At what point does a previous model year car that is new on a dealer lot start to be considered used?

PaulieWalnuts

A compassionate side of Ike? April fools is over ya know.

Ike

I wouldn't be on this site if I didn't like the RX-8.

Elara

All of about 6 months- so not really any longer than the 8 in terms of car years. And inspite of your dealer and the Nissan boards may have told you they weren't giving deals on them, but we've haven't sold 350Z near MSRP since about the time the 8's started arriving. It may be the way it is with the 8- in some places, they are more available then others. And that affects the true market value on the vehicles.

I really don't know, since I'm not involved in the actual selling. But I do know that we don't give "new" cars to the senior management (or anyone else, for that matter) to drive, and I'm guessing they have a cap on the amount of miles a "new" car can be driven before it is set as used. I'll ask our new car buyers next time I think about it.

msrecant

So you are saying worldwide goal for 2004 was on the order of 60,000 units. That is the magic number I have been looking for. If you can identify a substantiating source for that number please let me know. It implies they need roughly a $1.2 Billion revenue stream to justify the car.

You are correct, 10-15% shy of the goal may not be a problem but if it gets any worse there will be a lot of pressure to stop production. Several obvious reasons:

1. Superficially it looks like RX-8s may have cut into Miata sales revenue. This would count as a negative against the 8.

2. While $1 Billion a year gross revenue (47,000 units at $21,000 each) on RX-8s seems like a lot, only a small portion of that is profit. Beyond that Mazda has to recoup the R&D cost of the car and engine from the profit. Due to its unique components, like the Renesis engine, the 8 sales have to offset almost the full R&D cost of the car plus the ongoing operation of the Renesis plant. Also, I would expect that most of the components in an RX-8 are not shared with other Mazda/Ford platforms (which would normally help to reduce the financial burden on the RX-8).

3. Several years ago there was talk of terminating the Miata because sales were consistently below expectations, but Mazda stuck with the car. However, at that point, the Miata had already had a successful run to cover its R&D so Mazda had a little more leeway in the decision. This is not the case with the 8.

4. The recent high level of discounting compounds the problem. The problem exists whether the discounting is an RX-8 only problem or a problem in the Market (RX-8s, 350Zs, G35s, WRXs, EVOs, etc). That $4,000 rebate on dealer unsold 2004s has to come out of somebody's pocket, probably Mazda corporate. That means they retroactively lost profit on 2004 sales made last year to dealers. Also remember they are doing this at a time where new car production has stopped, which should be making the price of the car go up. Yet even Shinkas don't seem to be jumping off the dealer's lots.

So, IMHO, while I don't believe the situation is grave, it is certainly not good. Sales need to increase. But with a street rep of "rotary's are not cars for everyone", low gas mileage, low reliability and low power, it is going to be an up-hill battle. You can argue all day and night about whether the above is true or not, but until the reputation on the street changes I don't think the sales are going to get better.

From that standpoint, I think this forum has helped. Similarly, the Consumer Reports analysis of the car helps too. By hammering on the car's weaknesses, it should be painfully obvious what Mazda needs to address whether through technical improvements or different marketing strategy. Its a wonderful car, it just needs to be 10-15% better to be financially secure.