RX-8 production and US sales
03-29-2006, 11:21 PM
#51
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Originally Posted by brillo
I'm guessing part of that increase is the 6spd Auto's, they probably ramp up production big time at first. Hopefully those cars will perform and sell better than the 4spds.
03-30-2006, 06:06 AM
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Originally Posted by rotarygod
Where's the rebuttal from all the people who keep saying it isn't selling well? Let me guess, we'll get some comparison to some other car that outsells it. 
jaguargod Quote:
Originally Posted by brillo
I'm guessing part of that increase is the 6spd Auto's, they probably ramp up production big time at first. Hopefully those cars will perform and sell better than the 4spds.
Not that the RX8 is having great resale values anyway, but I imagine that the 6sp auto is going to send the 4sp model's resale values into a nose dive.
Originally Posted by brillo
I'm guessing part of that increase is the 6spd Auto's, they probably ramp up production big time at first. Hopefully those cars will perform and sell better than the 4spds.
Not that the RX8 is having great resale values anyway, but I imagine that the 6sp auto is going to send the 4sp model's resale values into a nose dive.
( sorry if you have a 4 speed at)
03-30-2006, 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by brillo
people buy sports cars in Wi in January?
Shouldn't you be reminding us how the RX8 is slow and underpowered, therefore not a sales sucess and Mazda is losing billions on the 8 and is therefore going to pull the car after this year?
Shouldn't you be reminding us how the RX8 is slow and underpowered, therefore not a sales sucess and Mazda is losing billions on the 8 and is therefore going to pull the car after this year?
03-30-2006, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by VikingDJ
That was too good, and too true. I'm suddenly remembering the GTO thread now, talking about how it's not selling well, and is a failure. I looked up the GTO numbers during that thread, and the GTO is selling about the same as the RX8, if not very close. So what makes the GTO a failure and the RX8 a success? I guess the company decides, and we make assumptions. This means Mazda is calling the RX8 a success, so it really doesn't matter how many they sell. The GTO, 10-12k models sold per year, that's a failure.
the gto was intended to be a mustang figther for GM, im almost sure i read that some where
03-30-2006, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by rotary crazy
it is a succes because mazda never meant for the rx-8 to be a large volume car, and if you compare the # with the last rotary car the rx-7 the rx-8 its a huge succes.
the gto was intended to be a mustang figther for GM, im almost sure i read that some where
the gto was intended to be a mustang figther for GM, im almost sure i read that some where
I agree, for a rotary, the sales numbers are good, especially when compared to the last generation rx7. I just find it interesting how it's not the amount of cars that sell, it's the amount of expectations that are put on a car, that determine it's fate. We seem to go along with what the dealerships say, instead of making our own opinion based on production numbers. I guess Pontiac was expecting 15-20k GTO's to sell per year so the GTO is a failure, Mazda wasn't expecting to sell 15-20k rx8s per year, so it's a success.
Last edited by VikingDJ; 03-30-2006 at 10:58 AM.
03-30-2006, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by VikingDJ
I just find it interesting how it's not the amount of cars that sell, it's the amount of expectations that are put on a car, that determine it's fate. We seem to go along with whatther dealerships say, instead of making our own opinion based on production numbers.
Some folks (not you VikingDJ, just others on the forum) seem to think that success = most-total-sold, but I don't see it that way at all. Mazda should have planned how many they needed to sell to be sufficiently profitable and if they exceed that and claim success who can criticize just because there aren't 2 RX-8s sold for every sold S2000 and 4 RX-8s sold for every sold Mustang?
03-30-2006, 11:12 AM
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I remember now it was on the discovery chanel and C&D, they said the gto was going to be price in the mustang range but some problem with the exchange rate made it more xpensive
03-30-2006, 11:16 AM
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That's the point many of us have been trying to make for a long time now. Thanks for bringing that up! It doesn't matter how many S2000's, Evo's, STi's, 350Z's, etc sell in relation to the RX-8. That is irrelevant. The only thing that matters is that Mazda is selling how many they have anticipated they would and they have admitted several times that they have met their numbers. The rumors of poor sales come from individual interpretation and comparison to other cars by people hel bent on numbers they don't know how to interpret and even writers in magazines comtribute to this. If everything that is in magazine is true, how many "spy shots" of new concept cars have we seen appear that make claims of the next model yet they never made it anywhere? As with anything stated online, even with magazines, take everything you read with a grain of salt. When it comes to sales numbers, only go by what the manufacturer reports and not some writer somewhere whether it's online or at the newsstand. The official reports show it to be a success. That's good enough for me.
03-30-2006, 11:46 AM
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I consider success as covering your investment and then some. If Mazda invested $50 million USD in the RX8's development, then they need to recover that cost for the RX8 to be a success. I don't mean covering the cost selling Mazda 3's and 6's.....I mean covering the investment by selling the # of RX8's needed to break even. If Mazda has met that requirement....then good for them. I don't care that the RX8 sells less than 50K units world-wide......as long as that was the magic # needed to cover the investment. However, if Mazda needed to sell 100K world-wide to cover the investment, then that is not a successful vehicle. Unsuccessful vehicles are risky to auto companies. Yes, many companies will run in the red on a certain vehicle because they make a killing on another. But in hard times, the first program killed is the one losing money. Since Mazda is doing well right now, they can afford to keep a loser or two in their stables to fill niche markets.
Typically you will find that vehicles that cannot cover the investment will remain unchanged longer......because any change is a larger investment (more $$$). If you can't cover the original investment....why would you waste more capital on a lost cause? If you needed to sell 100K units and that ends up taking 4 years......then you are almost guaranteed not to see a refresh in that time period. If you sell that many in 2 years.....well, then you can start investing in the product after two years.....or let it pull in huge profits for another year unchanged.
Typically you will find that vehicles that cannot cover the investment will remain unchanged longer......because any change is a larger investment (more $$$). If you can't cover the original investment....why would you waste more capital on a lost cause? If you needed to sell 100K units and that ends up taking 4 years......then you are almost guaranteed not to see a refresh in that time period. If you sell that many in 2 years.....well, then you can start investing in the product after two years.....or let it pull in huge profits for another year unchanged.
03-30-2006, 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by rotarygod
That's the point many of us have been trying to make for a long time now. Thanks for bringing that up! It doesn't matter how many S2000's, Evo's, STi's, 350Z's, etc sell in relation to the RX-8. That is irrelevant. The only thing that matters is that Mazda is selling how many they have anticipated they would and they have admitted several times that they have met their numbers. The rumors of poor sales come from individual interpretation and comparison to other cars by people hel bent on numbers they don't know how to interpret and even writers in magazines comtribute to this. If everything that is in magazine is true, how many "spy shots" of new concept cars have we seen appear that make claims of the next model yet they never made it anywhere? As with anything stated online, even with magazines, take everything you read with a grain of salt. When it comes to sales numbers, only go by what the manufacturer reports and not some writer somewhere whether it's online or at the newsstand. The official reports show it to be a success. That's good enough for me.
03-30-2006, 12:57 PM
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So you are all saying that basically the success of a car is determined by the company, not actual sales. Had the rx8 only sold 5k models per year, and that was Mazda's goal, then it's a success. If they expected 20k in sales every year and it only sold 12k, it's a failure. Even though it's being outsold by it's competitors, it's still selling well, because Mazda doesn't care. You are also then arguing that Mazda purposley is overproduced this car in 2004, not caring about exceeding the supply-demand factor, but just wanting their rx8 out there in high volume, to create a future success. I still believe that you cannot completely discard actual sales, because it's being totally one sided, and there is an argument to be made, but I'm not gonna make it. 
The STI is a prime example. They kept their expectations low, but the demand got so high, they are producing a lot of STIs now. We all know Mazda would love nothing more then for the RX8 to outsell it's competitors. It's not a requirement they made, but they'd take it in a heartbeat. Now what happens? If the STI drops down to their initial expectations of 3k models per year, they will stop producing the car? and it's a failure? I don't like this way of looking at it, but I guess that's how it is. I think as long as the RX8 doesn't have a massive run, then die off abruptly, it will be around for a while. Expectations increase when sales increase, so if the drop off is too massive, it's a failure to the car company. Interesting stuff there. I'm not gonna complain. I'll be in the market for an RX8 soon, and I welcome 5-8k off msrp on a leftover model. I wish I could do that with my STI and my S2K. Deals like that are non-existent.
The STI is a prime example. They kept their expectations low, but the demand got so high, they are producing a lot of STIs now. We all know Mazda would love nothing more then for the RX8 to outsell it's competitors. It's not a requirement they made, but they'd take it in a heartbeat. Now what happens? If the STI drops down to their initial expectations of 3k models per year, they will stop producing the car? and it's a failure? I don't like this way of looking at it, but I guess that's how it is. I think as long as the RX8 doesn't have a massive run, then die off abruptly, it will be around for a while. Expectations increase when sales increase, so if the drop off is too massive, it's a failure to the car company. Interesting stuff there. I'm not gonna complain. I'll be in the market for an RX8 soon, and I welcome 5-8k off msrp on a leftover model. I wish I could do that with my STI and my S2K. Deals like that are non-existent.
03-30-2006, 01:03 PM
#63
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Originally Posted by VikingDJ
So you are all saying that basically the success of a car is determined by the company, not actual sales. Had the rx8 only sold 5k models per year, and that was Mazda's goal, then it's a success. If they expected 20k in sales every year and it only sold 12k, it's a failure. Even though it's being outsold by it's competitors, it's still selling well, because Mazda doesn't care.
03-30-2006, 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted by rotarygod
That's exactly what I'm saying because that's how it works. The fact it is beig outsold by it's competitors is irrelevant.
Then that means Mazda can call the RX8 a success, even if it truly isn't, and you will then argue what they say as the truth, and nothing else. Why would Mazda ever admit the RX8 is not selling as well as they hoped even if it's true? They would sabotage any future success of the rotary if they did that. I'm just covering all angles here. If you want to ignore it then that's fine. I still can't help but wonder why the demand for the RX8 is so much lower then the supply, forcing Mazda to drastically reduce their flooded lots. From your argument, Mazda is purposely doing this, and that is also irrelevant. I truly understand where you are coming from, but something still doesn't add up. The fact that my 35k msrp rx8 was only worth 24k after a year and a half, and my STI is worth 24k right now after 2 years and msrp was 3k less, while Edmunds reported the RX8 to have great resale value, and the STI to have bad, how can one not raise a flag and wonder what really is going on here. I'm not arguing your point, just throwing out some food for thought, to continue this discussion. I welcome all opinions, because I want to figure out exactly what's going on here.
Furthermore, I think I am bothered by a wonderful car like the rx8 being produced and dished out like it's a Dodge Caravan. I don't like the fact that if I contact Mazda for a new RX8 purchase, they show desparation, whereas the STI and S2K, they almost act like they don't care if I buy or not, and will not budge on price. That's just my personality and opinion, but the RX8 is too good for that, and should be that way. Ok, I'm done venting.
03-30-2006, 01:34 PM
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the rx-8 its a succesful program for mazda, it has sold more than 120,000 units world wide and has recapture some of the rotary public that were lost in the 90's and introduce the rotary to new customers, it also put mazda back in the racing world and the rotary in publications and tv.
03-30-2006, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by VikingDJ
Then that means Mazda can call the RX8 a success, even if it truly isn't, and you will then argue what they say as the truth, and nothing else.
No one knows better than Mazda what sales number (of new cars) they need to make/keep the program profitable.
Also, resale value doesn't directly affect the car manufacturer. It does, ultimately, have some effect, but not a direct, first-hand effect. The manufacturer only sells the brand new car and only sells it once.
03-30-2006, 02:01 PM
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Success also includes more than just whether or not they met their sales projections. There is (as one person posted) the re-introduction of the rotary engine to the public. There is also a level of success of a great looking sports car getting people who would never buy the RX-8 to notice Mazda and come onto their lots, sections in car shows, etc, and be exposed to Mazda's other model lines and perhaps buy a Mazda 6 or 3. Everytime someone sees an Rx-8 on the road and asks "what kind of car is that?" as long as they get the answer on their own or someone provides them with the answer, the Mazda brand is re-introduced into their brains. There are many hard to measure ways that a car can be successful beyond straight sales.
03-30-2006, 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Cool-Blue-Dad
Actually, I don't think anyone said or meant to imply Mazda could decide any arbitrary sales number or metric for success. I thought the posts from RG and others were very clear about saying 'Mazda can call the RX8 a success if it covers the cost of their investment and the program yields a net profit'.
No one knows better than Mazda what sales number (of new cars) they need to make/keep the program profitable.
Also, resale value doesn't directly affect the car manufacturer. It does, ultimately, have some effect, but not a direct, first-hand effect. The manufacturer only sells the brand new car and only sells it once.
No one knows better than Mazda what sales number (of new cars) they need to make/keep the program profitable.
Also, resale value doesn't directly affect the car manufacturer. It does, ultimately, have some effect, but not a direct, first-hand effect. The manufacturer only sells the brand new car and only sells it once.
Point taken, but no one is arguing my point, which I so desire.
I guess seeing tons of leftover rx8s on the lots being sold desparately like an unwanted economy car doesn't bother most people. I still think the RX8 is too good for that, but who am I to judge. Mazda makes the call here, and they want to exceed production above demand, and I suppose that strategy is working, because the car is too hot to not eventually be sold, even if they do have to mark it wayyy below MSRP, cut into their profit, and have to hold off the next MY production to wait for the previous model to sell. The insane leftover deals play a major role in the sale of the RX8 in North America no doubt. I guess the true success of the RX8 has yet to be determined. If in 2012 the RX8 is still around, or it gets replaced by a new rotary sports coupe, then we know this car is truly a success. Until then the jury is still out in my mind, regardless of what Mazda says. However, I give Mazda credit. They are doing everything in their power to bring back the rotary. The wrong approach could have spelled an early end to the RX8. I trust that mazda knows what they are doing, but I still don't like it. This is a sports car, not an economy car, and seeing the mazda near me with plenty of 05 RX8s on lot being sold for dirt cheap half way through 2006 disgusts me. That's just the way it is I suppose.
03-30-2006, 02:14 PM
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another thing is that the succes of the rx-8 has allow mazda to star developing the rotary oficially something that was not done since the early 90's.
03-30-2006, 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted by VikingDJ
I guess seeing tons of leftover rx8s on the lots being sold desparately like an unwanted economy car doesn't bother most people. I still think the RX8 is too good for that, but who am I to judge.
I must admit I find it slightly aesthetically displeasing, however, it really doesn't bother me. I was one of the ones who picked up a brand new RX-8 for over $8,000 off MSRP so my judgement is tainted. Market forces delivered a stellar deal to me. At the same time I don't see my particular deal as an indication of a problem with the model - look at my sig. That Touring model had an MSRP over $35,000. Absurd, right? Anyone looking to spend that much would be looking for a GT, not a T - I think the configuration of options and the resulting sky-high price caused that car to be passed over by buyer after buyer. There were four 2004s on the lot like that in Sep 2005 and they all had high MSRP and odd configurations of options.
I consider that a good reason. Now, ask Chrysler the reason they have over 100 generic leftover mini-vans on any given lot.
Your local lots may also be giving you a wrong impression. In September 2005 I had trouble finding brand new RX-8s locally. The dealerships in Rochester had one or two silver 2005s, no blues; Binghamton only had one black (a dealer-demo - see my rants on that elsewhere) and there were none in northern PA - dealers were trying to get me to pre-order a 2006. I drove 300 miles to get my 2004.
However, almost every domestic model of car goes through huge clearance sales at the end of the model year and the Toyota dealership in town holds the record for radio-spam advertising discounts of everything on their lot - new or used. A few left-over RX-8s here and there isn't bad at all in my humble opinion - this isn't supposed to be a super-scarce exotic like the Plymouth Prowler where only a few dealerships got one at all and they were making buyers bid up or pay to join a lottery for them.
Originally Posted by VikingDJ
I guess the true success of the RX8 has yet to be determined. If in 2012 the RX8 is still around, or it gets replaced by a new rotary sports coupe, then we know this car is truly a success. Until then the jury is still out in my mind, regardless of what Mazda says. However, I give Mazda credit. They are doing everything in their power to bring back the rotary. The wrong approach could have spelled an early end to the RX8. I trust that mazda knows what they are doing, but I still don't like it.
I'm hoping for a 2012 MY. My oldest turns 16 in 2011 and she'll want my current RX-8 for her own then.
If she earns the priviledge (and if I can get a new one) she just might get it too.
03-30-2006, 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Duke15
Success also includes more than just whether or not they met their sales projections. There is (as one person posted) the re-introduction of the rotary engine to the public. There is also a level of success of a great looking sports car getting people who would never buy the RX-8 to notice Mazda and come onto their lots, sections in car shows, etc, and be exposed to Mazda's other model lines and perhaps buy a Mazda 6 or 3. Everytime someone sees an Rx-8 on the road and asks "what kind of car is that?" as long as they get the answer on their own or someone provides them with the answer, the Mazda brand is re-introduced into their brains. There are many hard to measure ways that a car can be successful beyond straight sales.
I have to disagree with your statement about the RX8 drawing potential Mazda customers into Mazda dealerships. This car is virtually unknown by most potential car buyers......even when you tell them "RX8", very few even understand what that means. Mazda gets showroom traffic due to the cars it advertises heavily, the MX5, Mazda 3 & 6. The RX8 is Mazda's way of holding on to the one technology that makes them unique.....the rotary. That is a niche market and Mazda knows that. They don't push the car because people that will actually buy one are already drawn to the dealerships asking about it. I am sure that I am not the only one that had no intention of shopping Mazda products and discovered the RX8......I went there for the RX8. Period.
03-30-2006, 03:24 PM
#72
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Originally Posted by Cool-Blue-Dad
A few odd-ball, leftover RX-8s on lots is not the whole story
It is impossible to try and figure out what Mazda (or any company) is doing. There are so many factors. But from the outside perspective this car appears to have become a very niche car. That's good in some ways, and not so good in others. But one thing that really strikes me is that this car has got niche car sales (in the US) without niche car pricing. You will never see an STi or Evo for $8k off. People are going to get in the habit of wanting to get the 8 for $6-8k off because they know they can. I think you will see that reflected this year.
Maybe I'm just an anomaly, but factory FI is very attractive to me. I just don't like the idea of voiding my warranty, but I want that kick. At some point I'm going to need a new car, but for now I'm waiting for something better to come along. Mazda would have my sale today at full asking price, even though I don't NEED a new car, if I had something just a bit more attractive. If no power bump for the 8 comes along and I end up needing a new car, there's NO way I'm paying anywhere even close to MSRP for an 8.
Just my 2¢.
03-30-2006, 04:06 PM
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So if a car company meets it's sales goals and calls a car a success but some random person on the street says it's not a success based on their own personal beliefs as to what a success should be considered, who are we supposed to believe again? I see an issue here and I just don't understand what the problem is.
03-30-2006, 05:35 PM
#74
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Originally Posted by rotarygod
So if a car company meets it's sales goals and calls a car a success but some random person on the street says it's not a success based on their own personal beliefs as to what a success should be considered, who are we supposed to believe again? I see an issue here and I just don't understand what the problem is.
The issue here is that any 8 owner should care a whole lot about what's going on in the minds of Mazda. It affects how Mazda proceeds in the future which can affect your resale value. Just saying that you can't know what Mazda is thinking for sure so you won't try to make a few conclusions is only going to hurt you in the end.
I never even implied that the basis for Mazda's success depends on what I say. But if their continued ability to make money as a company depends on what every person says collectively -- right or wrong, informed or not.
This ONE person here isn't going to pay near MSRP for this car. That's all I can say for sure. So, if that's part of Mazda's plan, bully for them.
03-30-2006, 07:05 PM
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Originally Posted by saturn
My point is that if you break it down to what you're saying no one could ever say anything about anything ever. Anytime a car got in an accident I could just say that Mazda knew that and it's all part of their plan. This post was all part of Mazda's plan. It's ridiculous to decide that we can't conjecture about anything dealing with the RX-8 because we don't know what Mazda thinks for sure.
The issue here is that any 8 owner should care a whole lot about what's going on in the minds of Mazda. It affects how Mazda proceeds in the future which can affect your resale value. Just saying that you can't know what Mazda is thinking for sure so you won't try to make a few conclusions is only going to hurt you in the end.
I never even implied that the basis for Mazda's success depends on what I say. But if their continued ability to make money as a company depends on what every person says collectively -- right or wrong, informed or not.
This ONE person here isn't going to pay near MSRP for this car. That's all I can say for sure. So, if that's part of Mazda's plan, bully for them.
The issue here is that any 8 owner should care a whole lot about what's going on in the minds of Mazda. It affects how Mazda proceeds in the future which can affect your resale value. Just saying that you can't know what Mazda is thinking for sure so you won't try to make a few conclusions is only going to hurt you in the end.
I never even implied that the basis for Mazda's success depends on what I say. But if their continued ability to make money as a company depends on what every person says collectively -- right or wrong, informed or not.
This ONE person here isn't going to pay near MSRP for this car. That's all I can say for sure. So, if that's part of Mazda's plan, bully for them.
Well said. To ignore the fact that this car started selling discounted shortly after it came out, and highly discounted ever since, can make some of us wonder what the real deal is. I think it's natural to compare how other cars sell, and not be single minded, and trust only what Mazda says. I suppose the world of denial is the way to go. lol I guess I'm a little partial, because I wish other cars of this caliber had these kind of discounts. I'd give anything to be able to buy other hot cars like rx8 at these discounts. Too bad those cars sell faster, and there are very few leftover models, therefore causing less discounts. I do wish Mazda would start producing less rx8s, but I guess they are making more money this way, even if it is killing resale value and trade in value. I admit I'm still bitter that when it came time to unload my rx8, I got shafted more then I ever would with my S2K and STI. I took it square in the behind. It was a buy it and marry it car, unlike the STI or S2K, but iniytially we were lead to believe this was not the case. Of course I can only speak for the area I live in. Maybe in other parts of the country the RX8 is expensive, and they are not easy to come by for a super great price, and the demand is much higher. All I know is I got lowballed badly when I went to trade it in, then tried selling it privately, ultimately being forced to reduce my price quite a bit to make a sale. That will not happen with my S2K or STI. I already got an offer for $24500 for my 04 STI, and I have owned it two years and put 25k mils on it. GRRRR
Last edited by VikingDJ; 03-30-2006 at 07:09 PM.
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