77mjd

I know everyone here is trying to be optimistic, but this new rotary is starting to seem more and more like a long shot of ever making it. Face it, if they can't produce something that is competitive power-wise and mpg-wise nobody will buy it as we are already seeing with the current RX-8. Then you also have the tree huggers making things worse with the new emissions and mpg standards. No matter how positive a spin you try to put on it, you have to admit it does not look good.

MattMPS

the 16x don't meet the expectations of top executives on emission /consumption/performances...so the chassis is translated into time.

Spin9k

^
^that gets to the core of the problem facing Mazda. I mean the RX-8 only got built on a wing and a prayer as it was.... and Mazda is a lot more 'corporate' now and everything has to pass far more serious economic muster. But in the 16x case, the engineers are the ones saying "not ready for prime time", so the marketers won't even consider putting it into any future plans until the engine can pass muster, which is a long shot at best for so many reasons.

No one likes to hear this but if Mazda is going to make a 'serious sports car' as Maeda call's it, they probably need to get in bed with the rest of the piston crowd, who seem to be doing not so bad nowadays in the sports cars wars, thank you very much.

But then again, to hear Maeda talk, Mazda doesn't even seem to want to even bother with a 'serious sports car' anymore....they've apparently lost their DNA that once said they need to build such things.

arghx7

As sorry as I am to say this, mistakes with the rotary engine ruined NSU (which was taken over by Audi/VW) and cost Mazda dearly several times. These days, it just doesn't make business sense to roll the dice on such a project. The shareholders won't tolerate the risk. Audi was still doing rotary engine research for a few years after they canned their production engines, but then rotary research was effectively scrapped. There's a good chance the same thing could happen at Mazda.

If we don't see a new production rotary engine in the next five years we'll probably never see it. Support within Mazda will be too weak to revive it after that.

elysium19

iTrader: (1)

Damn. More evidence of what I've been saying all along - the rotary's characteristics make it a fantastic race car engine, but not one suited for every day use. The only way for the rotary car to survive is to use the engine (in turbo'd form) for what it's best at: a high end halo sportscar (along the lines of what the FD was at the time, but to an even greater extent) where cost and fuel economy and high sales numbers take a back seat to performance, style, and more performance.

NO ONE at BMW gives a **** AT ALL that a brand new M5 gets 11mpg city 17mpg hwy (those are the real figures!!) and costs $90K and isn't profitable for the company, as long as it strongly promotes the brand and performs very very well, and breaks even for the company. Why does everyone think that a 5-liter V10 is any less ridiculous than a 2.6-liter rotary?? It's not the engine, it's the application! If you make a 4-door sedan than gets poor mpg/emission figures, of course it will be poorly received. Which brings me on to my main point:

In my opinion, the car would have to have the following formula in order to work financially and for marketing reality:
Style: 2-door, 2-seat pure sports coupe, similar in style to late-model RX-7.
Design: undeniably, it would have to be stunningly beautiful, as is any good sports coupe. But I think it's clear that Ikou Maeda would be up to this task, given his experience and sentiment.
Cost: $60,000-$70,000 price range. Limits the buyer market, but the performance and overall desirability will justify it.
Sales figures: 5,000 cars per year in the US, perhaps twice that, tops, for the global total.
Engine: Turbocharged 16x, >450hp (crank). Given the advances in rotary technology, offset by the mpg loss of a turbo'd car with larger displacement, I wouldn't expect greater than 15/21 mpg. But if you understand where I'm going with this, that doesn't matter much. Remember the M5 analogy.
Body: Lightweight structural components, curb weight of <2800 lbs. Mazda knows how to do lightness better than most car companies, and this is feasible if they have a relatively high price tag to work with. Which leads to:
Performance: If they get the weight down, it would necessarily have to perform ** well above** the benchmark level of (for comparison, were it made today) a Porsche 911 S, corvette Z06, or BMW M3/M5 for a similar price. Given the characteristics of mazda's sports car pedigree, and the nature of the rotary engine, this is VERY doable, but it would certainly require a focused corporate effort.

So where does that leave us today? One, hold on to your car, and enjoy it. As the only rotary on sale today, it is already unique. If another rotary-powered car is never built again, a very real possibility, then your car will be that much more unique and special down the road. If 2011's are the last model year made, then try to get your hands on one cheap, because they very well may become highly sought-after collectors items: "the sports car with the unique engine they haven't made in decades".

A sad day and sad announcement, hopefully more positive news comes out though it will be a few more years, if at all.

The positive spin on it: remember how special your car is, and enjoy the hell out of it.

Symbioticgenius

To be honest. This could completely be BS. Lets downplay the Rx7 till we sell the rest of these Damn Rx8's. Plain and simple. It could be another FD, were gonna wait a while for the next one. Either way, barely anyone knows, and those who truly know are contradicting the f*** out of each other.

Red Rex

iTrader: (1)

Even though a top end halo rotary does make sense, I think Mazda should focus on the $30K market more than the $70K market. Whether its a rotary car or not, the steak and potatoes of the company's sports car sales should be in the neighborhood of $30K. The RX8, 370Z, Mustang, Camaro, Evo, Impreza, etc all get the most attention. The GT-R and Corvette raise the cool factor of the brands, but most people can't afford them and and thus more focused on the entry level sports cars. So yeah, a GT-R killer from Mazda would be awesome but Mazda needs something between the Mazdaspeed3 and a $70K monster.

CrazyJek

$45k range is where they need to be.

Either way... this just gave me enough "oomph" to mod my car they way I want to... knowing I won't be replacing it any time soon.

Sad time indeed. If I buy another piston engine car that isn't a beater, then it will be a Porsche Cayman S. After the 8, nothing else seems worth it.

Strata-R

I don't care if the new RX-7 is far away. There is a global recession and all auto sales are down. I would rather have Mazda make smart decisions to strengthen the company with cars that people will actually buy. The RX-8 was never a good seller and it cost Mazda money. I want to see Mazda work on the Renesis engine some more, if there is some way to make it as efficient as a piston engine counterpart, then I see a great future for Mazda. Image a 3 or 4 liter rotary engine with the power of a V12! Then put that engine in a next gen RX-7 that is designed compete with the likes of the Nissan GT-R and Porche 911. That would make me much happier than building a half-assed RX-9 with the same engine issues as the RX-8.

california style

I agree with Crazy Jek.

A super focussed sports car, NOT a fat lump like the GTR or Nissan 370 / EVO X.
BUT not too expensive, ie, 30-40k

And they need to stay either pure 2 seat and make an alternative new RX8 4 seater too.

But whatever happens it will be at least 2012, more like 2013 before we see it I reckon...

Aipex8

iTrader: (1)

Check out this article. The next rotary will by the "Sky Rotary" and will be drastically more efficient than the current model. And, the RX-8 will still be in production in Japan. And it seems that there are plans for a second gen 8:

http://www.goauto.com.au/mellor/mell...2577970012273A

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

The article brings up a very good point that I think is being missed by the masses, even by this thread.



Maeda says "no RX-7 on the drawing board". This does not contradict anyone else who says that an RX-8 replacement is pending getting the "sky rotary" right.

2 different cars here. An RX-8 replacement (call it an RX-9 if you will) could be along sooner than an RX-7 replacement, and one does not exclude the other.

Aipex8

iTrader: (1)

Actually, the article states that the possible RX-7 replacement would be named RX-9. I'm sure the second gen RX-8 would retain that name. It also sounds like they expect the RX-9 to be a very serious sports car... probably very expensive too!

2tone

iTrader: (3)

now we're talking!!

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

I gather you are getting that from this quote:
But that is journalism error there. They aren't taking into account Mazda's naming convention, where bigger sizes mean bigger numbers. An RX smaller than the 8 would be called a 7. Bigger is a 9 (even if slightly, and to distance the new model from the 8's reputation)



This is the point I was referring to:
2 different cars.

Then his comment...
...is only referring to 1 of those 2 cars.

Roidz

I know this is bad news to not have a new rx for a few years, if ever, but it makes you appreciate your rx8 even more.

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

Agreed.


I mean, it's not like the 7 guys love their car's any less because it isn't in production any more.



The same with any collector's car that isn't in production that has any enthusiast following, regardless of if we see the justification for their enthusiasm or not.

ASH8

Hang on Guys...ALL is not dead..

GoAuto was also in Milan and Germany....more information

Check this thread out...


SKY ROTARY LOCKED IN..

https://www.rx8club.com/general-automotive-49/mazda-sky-rotary-locked-204295/

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

It also means that they HAVE "hundreds" (well,maybe a hundred if he might be exaggerating), working on the rotary engine.

That by itself means that it isn't dead, and the company is still investing in it.


In fact, I think we would see some very public information about all the rotary engine engineers being let go or reassigned if they did actually kill the engine's future.

Spin9k

There was that big "IF" in there, "it would wear the same Sky name as Mazda’s upcoming four-cylinder petrol and diesel engines – if Mazda can extract similar fuel-efficiency to the Sky G petrol four". Due to the lower volumetric efficiency of a rotary, that sounds impossible on the face of it, but they may be speaking from current efficiency, not improving the absolute efficiency of the engine to match a piston engine.

Then, "Fuel economy is our handicap, so we must drastically improve otherwise the next generation rotary cannot survive." and "he hoped to “carry on that miracle” "sure reads like needing devine intervention to succeed.

The only positive new news therewas this, "There are perhaps millions of engineers working on refining (conventional) engines ... we have perhaps only hundreds.” That's like 90% more than I thought they would have applied to the project...good news indeed!

Drumm09

Wowww. So all is not DEAD yet?

What surprised the most in that article is that the RX-8 is not DEAD yet, and that Mazda could continue with the side doors.

Wow. I mean, there has been plently of talk about an RX-7 not being released anytime soon, but, a second gen rx-8? NOW YOU'RE TALKING>

MAZMART "6"

This post is so full of truth. I am on my 5th FC. The thing a lot of people do not realize is that it is more of a passion than anything else. Although it may be a sick passion, it is an awesome one to have.

rotarygod

There are several things that article does and does NOT say. First it says there is no new RX-7 on the drawing boards. It does not say there is no new rotary car such as a next RX-8 or RX-9. It says the Shinari itself is not the next RX-8 but doesn't say that there isn't ever going to be a new one. For those waiting for a new RX-7, you'll have to wait much longer, or potentially forever. However if you are waiting for another rotary engine to appear in a car again, I don't think this is out of the question.

Mazda is definitely working on the rotary engine. We all know this is true and this article doesn't even imply that they aren't. From their futile attempts to make Hydrogen a worthwhile fuel, to the 16X, to rotary powered generators in series hybrids, there is no shortage of work being done within Mazda in regards to the rotary engine itself. Even other auto makers are taking another look at it for their series hybrids so the rotary is not dead by any stretch of the imagination even though the RX-7 may be.

nycgps

iTrader: (1)

I agreed with the Yen's problem (more like US dollar value goes down, whatever)

Yen vs USD is @ 83.xxx something dude, you know how bad that is ?

Most Japanese company like Mazda that depends heavily on export are getting a big fat hit.

They have to raise the price of their product in US. but price too high = People buys local, no foreign.

Rotary Engine is more like a niche item for Mazda right now. and At this time, even they have a 16x fully working with 30 mpg + 300 hp they won't release it. They don't have deep pockets like Nissan or Toyota or Honda.

New Yorker

Thank you. I was starting to think I was the only one who actually read the article.