Mazda SKY ROTARY Locked In
09-07-2010, 01:32 PM
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Mazda SKY ROTARY Locked In
From GoAuto...
http://www.goauto.com.au/mellor/mell...2577970012273A
MAZDA has set an ambitious 50 per cent fuel consumption reduction target for its next-generation ‘Sky Rotary’ engine, but don’t expect it to power a showroom version of the sleek new Shinari four-door coupe concept any time soon.
Before presenting its new ‘Kodo’ design language on the Shinari concept in Milan last week, Mazda offered selected global media – including GoAuto – an early taste-test of its ground-breaking new chassis and ‘Sky’ powertrain technologies in Berlin, where senior executives also reaffirmed their commitment to the Japanese car-maker’s trademark rotary engine.
Mazda’s director of R&D and program management Seita Kanai declined to offer specific details of the company’s next-generation rotary engine (or what model it might power), but said it would wear the same Sky name as Mazda’s upcoming four-cylinder petrol and diesel engines – if Mazda can extract similar fuel-efficiency to the Sky G petrol four, which employs direct fuel-injection and a 14:1 compression ratio to return just 6.0L/100km in 2.0-litre form.
“Today we cannot name it this, but a Sky rotary engine is under development,” Mr Kanai told Australian journalists in Germany.
“We are not aiming for a small improvement. Fuel economy is our handicap, so we must drastically improve otherwise the next generation rotary cannot survive. But there is potentially a very large improvement available therefore it is important that we do this.”
Mr Kanai said the rotary engine would continue to provide a point of difference for Mazda and indicated that many features of the new Sky G petrol engine could also be applied to the rotary architecture to improve its efficiency.
He would not comment on reports that Mazda is testing a version boosted by an electric supercharger, but indicated his engineers were starting from a clean-sheet design by going “very deeply back into the basic design of rotary”.
“There are a lot of studies for the rotary,” said Mazda’s global R&D chief, adding that the company had achieved a miracle of sorts by keeping the rotary alive and that he hoped to “carry on that miracle” by developing a Sky version to match the efficiency of the Sky G.
“That is my intention”, he said. “It’s very important for Mazda. The rotary is a gem for us so if we polish it, it will shine more ... and we are the only ones who know how to polish it. There are perhaps millions of engineers working on refining (conventional) engines ... we have perhaps only hundreds.”
On sale in Australia since 2003, the four-door RX-8 sportscar is Mazda’s only current rotary-powered model, but has been criticised for returning V8-like fuel consumption of 12.1L/100km for the 158kW/211Nm automatic version and 12.9L/100km for the more popular manual model, whose 1.3-litre twin-rotor engine delivers 170kW.
Mazda says that, contrary to reports, it has no plans to discontinue the RX-8 in Australia and Japan after it was axed in some overseas markets due to tighter Euro 5 emissions standards.
The company has committed to reducing the average fuel consumption across its entire new-vehicle fleet – and therefore all future models – by at least 30 per cent between 2008 and 2015, but it remains unclear what type of model Mazda’s next-generation rotary engine will power.
Mazda’s global product planning and powertrain development chief, Kiyoshi Fujiwara, told GoAuto that he recently approved the fourth-generation MX-5 convertible for production, but a replacement for the eight-year-old RX-8 is more likely to debut the frugal new Sky rotary.
Officially, the large four-seat, four-door Shinari sports coupe concept – which won’t appear at the green-focussed Paris motor show late this month – represents “a pure expression” of Mazda’s new Kodo design theme “in its idealised form”.
Mazda has promised to include several of the show car’s striking new styling elements on redesigned production models – most likely starting with the new Mazda6 in late 2012.
But it’s unlikely the Shinari’s striking new body design will translate directly on to production successors for either the four-door/four-seat RX-8 or Mazda’s original two-door/two-seat RX-7, a modern-day replacement for which would most likely be badged as an RX-9.
Mazda is expected to continue with the rear-hinged ‘Freestyle’ rear door concept of the current RX-8, which continues to represent a unique selling point amid a growing number of conceptually similar models from luxury brands including Maserati, Mercedes-Benz, Aston Martin, Porsche and even Lamborghini.
Beyond a next-gen RX-8, however, Mazda’s global design chief Ikou Maeda – who styled the RX-8 – said it would be “a dream come true” for him to design a new-generation RX-7, and told journalists to encourage Mazda to develop a successor for a hallowed model line first designed by his father, former Mazda design chief Matasaburo Maeda.
But he cautioned that, apart from being the subject of the question he was most commonly asked, such a model was not yet on Mazda’s drawing board and remained “years away” from reality.
“Please push Mazda ... please ask Mazda president to build other sportscar,” Mr Maeda told Australian journalists in Italy.
“I have made a lot a sketches myself of the (RX-7) sportscar, but there is no program. Every time I talk to journalists the article always says the new RX-7 will debut in a couple of years. Please do not do this,” he implored.
“If the market trend will be changed and a lot of people want to have it then we can build (it). A lot of young people don’t care about sportscars – not in Australia, your country is fantastic, but in Japan young people want computers …
“That is why we built this car, to show what we can do.”
Mr Maeda said any replacement for the RX-7 should be “much more serious” than both the original RX-7 and upcoming FT-86 concept-based sports coupes from Toyota and Subaru.
“Maybe we are not following that (FT-86) direction, but if we have a chance to build a sportscar it will be much more genuine and serious.
“Such a car should be lightweight and compressed ... and strong handling. It should not just be built to appeal to young trendy people but proper sportscar enthusiasts,” he said, adding that he would not enlist his father’s help to design a 21st century RX-7.
“His tastes and my tastes on design are totally opposite,” he said. “He is a very functional guy and I want to make it much more enthusiastic.”
Mr Maeda said the Kodo design language of the Shinari, which he said was “designed to talk freely about design”, would find its way onto the next-generation MX-5, despite the fact the world’s most popular convertible has “its own history”.
“I would like to keep this (Kodo design theme) as much as possible,” he said. “But also the MX-5 has its own design language, so we will not adopt this design completely. We have to incorporate two things at once but not all the elements.”
http://www.goauto.com.au/mellor/mell...2577970012273A
MAZDA has set an ambitious 50 per cent fuel consumption reduction target for its next-generation ‘Sky Rotary’ engine, but don’t expect it to power a showroom version of the sleek new Shinari four-door coupe concept any time soon.
Before presenting its new ‘Kodo’ design language on the Shinari concept in Milan last week, Mazda offered selected global media – including GoAuto – an early taste-test of its ground-breaking new chassis and ‘Sky’ powertrain technologies in Berlin, where senior executives also reaffirmed their commitment to the Japanese car-maker’s trademark rotary engine.
Mazda’s director of R&D and program management Seita Kanai declined to offer specific details of the company’s next-generation rotary engine (or what model it might power), but said it would wear the same Sky name as Mazda’s upcoming four-cylinder petrol and diesel engines – if Mazda can extract similar fuel-efficiency to the Sky G petrol four, which employs direct fuel-injection and a 14:1 compression ratio to return just 6.0L/100km in 2.0-litre form.
“Today we cannot name it this, but a Sky rotary engine is under development,” Mr Kanai told Australian journalists in Germany.
“We are not aiming for a small improvement. Fuel economy is our handicap, so we must drastically improve otherwise the next generation rotary cannot survive. But there is potentially a very large improvement available therefore it is important that we do this.”
Mr Kanai said the rotary engine would continue to provide a point of difference for Mazda and indicated that many features of the new Sky G petrol engine could also be applied to the rotary architecture to improve its efficiency.
He would not comment on reports that Mazda is testing a version boosted by an electric supercharger, but indicated his engineers were starting from a clean-sheet design by going “very deeply back into the basic design of rotary”.
“There are a lot of studies for the rotary,” said Mazda’s global R&D chief, adding that the company had achieved a miracle of sorts by keeping the rotary alive and that he hoped to “carry on that miracle” by developing a Sky version to match the efficiency of the Sky G.
“That is my intention”, he said. “It’s very important for Mazda. The rotary is a gem for us so if we polish it, it will shine more ... and we are the only ones who know how to polish it. There are perhaps millions of engineers working on refining (conventional) engines ... we have perhaps only hundreds.”
On sale in Australia since 2003, the four-door RX-8 sportscar is Mazda’s only current rotary-powered model, but has been criticised for returning V8-like fuel consumption of 12.1L/100km for the 158kW/211Nm automatic version and 12.9L/100km for the more popular manual model, whose 1.3-litre twin-rotor engine delivers 170kW.
Mazda says that, contrary to reports, it has no plans to discontinue the RX-8 in Australia and Japan after it was axed in some overseas markets due to tighter Euro 5 emissions standards.
The company has committed to reducing the average fuel consumption across its entire new-vehicle fleet – and therefore all future models – by at least 30 per cent between 2008 and 2015, but it remains unclear what type of model Mazda’s next-generation rotary engine will power.
Mazda’s global product planning and powertrain development chief, Kiyoshi Fujiwara, told GoAuto that he recently approved the fourth-generation MX-5 convertible for production, but a replacement for the eight-year-old RX-8 is more likely to debut the frugal new Sky rotary.
Officially, the large four-seat, four-door Shinari sports coupe concept – which won’t appear at the green-focussed Paris motor show late this month – represents “a pure expression” of Mazda’s new Kodo design theme “in its idealised form”.
Mazda has promised to include several of the show car’s striking new styling elements on redesigned production models – most likely starting with the new Mazda6 in late 2012.
But it’s unlikely the Shinari’s striking new body design will translate directly on to production successors for either the four-door/four-seat RX-8 or Mazda’s original two-door/two-seat RX-7, a modern-day replacement for which would most likely be badged as an RX-9.
Mazda is expected to continue with the rear-hinged ‘Freestyle’ rear door concept of the current RX-8, which continues to represent a unique selling point amid a growing number of conceptually similar models from luxury brands including Maserati, Mercedes-Benz, Aston Martin, Porsche and even Lamborghini.
Beyond a next-gen RX-8, however, Mazda’s global design chief Ikou Maeda – who styled the RX-8 – said it would be “a dream come true” for him to design a new-generation RX-7, and told journalists to encourage Mazda to develop a successor for a hallowed model line first designed by his father, former Mazda design chief Matasaburo Maeda.
But he cautioned that, apart from being the subject of the question he was most commonly asked, such a model was not yet on Mazda’s drawing board and remained “years away” from reality.
“Please push Mazda ... please ask Mazda president to build other sportscar,” Mr Maeda told Australian journalists in Italy.
“I have made a lot a sketches myself of the (RX-7) sportscar, but there is no program. Every time I talk to journalists the article always says the new RX-7 will debut in a couple of years. Please do not do this,” he implored.
“If the market trend will be changed and a lot of people want to have it then we can build (it). A lot of young people don’t care about sportscars – not in Australia, your country is fantastic, but in Japan young people want computers …
“That is why we built this car, to show what we can do.”
Mr Maeda said any replacement for the RX-7 should be “much more serious” than both the original RX-7 and upcoming FT-86 concept-based sports coupes from Toyota and Subaru.
“Maybe we are not following that (FT-86) direction, but if we have a chance to build a sportscar it will be much more genuine and serious.
“Such a car should be lightweight and compressed ... and strong handling. It should not just be built to appeal to young trendy people but proper sportscar enthusiasts,” he said, adding that he would not enlist his father’s help to design a 21st century RX-7.
“His tastes and my tastes on design are totally opposite,” he said. “He is a very functional guy and I want to make it much more enthusiastic.”
Mr Maeda said the Kodo design language of the Shinari, which he said was “designed to talk freely about design”, would find its way onto the next-generation MX-5, despite the fact the world’s most popular convertible has “its own history”.
“I would like to keep this (Kodo design theme) as much as possible,” he said. “But also the MX-5 has its own design language, so we will not adopt this design completely. We have to incorporate two things at once but not all the elements.”
09-07-2010, 01:45 PM
#3
Minor OT Points that were in the article.
I find it interesting that they love this door style.
Are they saying that a new RX8 will be coming out?
Mazda is expected to continue with the rear-hinged ‘Freestyle’ rear door concept of the current RX-8, which continues to represent a unique selling point amid a growing number of conceptually similar models from luxury brands including Maserati, Mercedes-Benz, Aston Martin, Porsche and even Lamborghini.
But it’s unlikely the Shinari’s striking new body design will translate directly on to production successors for either the four-door/four-seat RX-8 or Mazda’s original two-door/two-seat RX-7, a modern-day replacement for which would most likely be badged as an RX-9.
Beyond a next-gen RX-8, .....
09-07-2010, 01:53 PM
#4
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They did say they are starting on a clean sheet of paper, I think Charlie said this some months ago..
09-07-2010, 02:07 PM
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09-07-2010, 02:28 PM
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Or even a "16X" take on the 12A, It wouldn't surprise me if they learned a bunch from the 16X development, even if they can't use the 16X itself, and can apply it to a "smaller" engine.
14:1 compression ratio though. Either a re-design of the entire compression stroke, and/or something compressing the air ahead of time
Redesigning the compression stroke, to me would mean at a minimum a longer "stroke", which would also increase torque, etc... Changing the dimensions to keep it in the 12A to 13B volume range but with 16X like proportions, just scaled down. Could be an even smaller engine in weight and package. Afterall, the 16X was in the same size and weight of the 13B, so if they scaled a 16X down to 13X (for example, I have to believe that they could shrink the package. It fits with Mazda's weight saving goals.
14:1 compression ratio though. Either a re-design of the entire compression stroke, and/or something compressing the air ahead of time
Redesigning the compression stroke, to me would mean at a minimum a longer "stroke", which would also increase torque, etc... Changing the dimensions to keep it in the 12A to 13B volume range but with 16X like proportions, just scaled down. Could be an even smaller engine in weight and package. Afterall, the 16X was in the same size and weight of the 13B, so if they scaled a 16X down to 13X (for example, I have to believe that they could shrink the package. It fits with Mazda's weight saving goals.
09-07-2010, 03:58 PM
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I was hoping that most of the exterior (excluding the camera side mirrors and hub mounted wheels) would find it's way into a new model. If it's just going to be a FWD Mazda 6 with a new front and rear fascia I'll pass.
There just isn’t anything out currently available by a mainstream manufacturer that appeals to me. The closest things are all luxury marquees and I don’t have luxury level money. The 2012 Boss looks good but I need a 4 door so the closest thing will be a CPO M3 sedan.
I hope Mazda can come up with something great for the next rotary. While making it much more efficient is smart I think many would take the current efficiency if it had twice the performance. Another “but it handles great” rotary especially if it has an RX7 name will be end in mediocre sales at best. The best option is to just take the new MX5 chasis rumored to be around 2,000lbs and put this new rotary in it, hell call it an RX5 if you want. 250hp in a 2,000lb car will do wonders for performance and fuel economy.
There just isn’t anything out currently available by a mainstream manufacturer that appeals to me. The closest things are all luxury marquees and I don’t have luxury level money. The 2012 Boss looks good but I need a 4 door so the closest thing will be a CPO M3 sedan.
I hope Mazda can come up with something great for the next rotary. While making it much more efficient is smart I think many would take the current efficiency if it had twice the performance. Another “but it handles great” rotary especially if it has an RX7 name will be end in mediocre sales at best. The best option is to just take the new MX5 chasis rumored to be around 2,000lbs and put this new rotary in it, hell call it an RX5 if you want. 250hp in a 2,000lb car will do wonders for performance and fuel economy.
09-07-2010, 06:30 PM
#8
Sounds like Mazda is doing another "Phoenix Project" like when they were developing the first RX-7.
If I'm not mistaken, the 16X rotors are as wide as a 12A, but taller.
If I'm not mistaken, the 16X rotors are as wide as a 12A, but taller.
09-07-2010, 06:39 PM
#9
Wait a second, so let me get this straight...
Mazda has "learned" alot from the 16X but they are abandoning it? For the Sky? Or are they going to incorp. it into the 16X so that its a Sky 16X engine?
Will there not be a new "RX-7" soon but a newer "Gen" RX-8 with the 16X or something else?
What im trying to say is, will Mazda be using the 16X or have they abandoned it but "learned" alot from it and now are testing other methods for passing strict emissons and fuel ecconomy?
From what ive reading it seems the 16X helped them learn more and was a good experiment but now they are looking for a different way to increase fuel economy and now are starting BACK at square one...
Mazda has "learned" alot from the 16X but they are abandoning it? For the Sky? Or are they going to incorp. it into the 16X so that its a Sky 16X engine?
Will there not be a new "RX-7" soon but a newer "Gen" RX-8 with the 16X or something else?
What im trying to say is, will Mazda be using the 16X or have they abandoned it but "learned" alot from it and now are testing other methods for passing strict emissons and fuel ecconomy?
From what ive reading it seems the 16X helped them learn more and was a good experiment but now they are looking for a different way to increase fuel economy and now are starting BACK at square one...
09-07-2010, 06:50 PM
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Yup. But that doesn't mean that those are the only dimensions possible
Just like there is defunct piston technology, and probably even piston technology that advanced the whole concept but never made it to light of day because it made them rethink something else, I suspect this is what happened with the 16X. Between that and the SKY piston engines, they learned enough to realize that they could take it much farther than just a 16X.
It doesn't mean square 1, it is just another evolution. For example, what if they took the 16X internal proportions and scaled them down by 19% back to a 1300cc engine, but with the narrow rotors, longer stroke, etc, and then provided some level of forced induction (from the SKY engine technologies) to get the 14:1 compression stock? Greater efficiency and better emissions from just the 14:1, better torque from the 16X proportions (which helps boost mileage just from being able to lug lower RPMs), smaller package, lighter engine, etc...
An example, and probably not entirely accurate, but just to illustrate what I mean here. If they are moving on from 16X, it doesn't mean square 1, or that it was a waste. I think that it means that they made another leap in technology before it could see the light of day.
Wait a second, so let me get this straight...
Mazda has "learned" alot from the 16X but they are abandoning it? For the Sky? Or are they going to incorp. it into the 16X so that its a Sky 16X engine?
Will there not be a new "RX-7" soon but a newer "Gen" RX-8 with the 16X or something else?
What im trying to say is, will Mazda be using the 16X or have they abandoned it but "learned" alot from it and now are testing other methods for passing strict emissons and fuel ecconomy?
From what ive reading it seems the 16X helped them learn more and was a good experiment but now they are looking for a different way to increase fuel economy and now are starting BACK at square one...
Mazda has "learned" alot from the 16X but they are abandoning it? For the Sky? Or are they going to incorp. it into the 16X so that its a Sky 16X engine?
Will there not be a new "RX-7" soon but a newer "Gen" RX-8 with the 16X or something else?
What im trying to say is, will Mazda be using the 16X or have they abandoned it but "learned" alot from it and now are testing other methods for passing strict emissons and fuel ecconomy?
From what ive reading it seems the 16X helped them learn more and was a good experiment but now they are looking for a different way to increase fuel economy and now are starting BACK at square one...
It doesn't mean square 1, it is just another evolution. For example, what if they took the 16X internal proportions and scaled them down by 19% back to a 1300cc engine, but with the narrow rotors, longer stroke, etc, and then provided some level of forced induction (from the SKY engine technologies) to get the 14:1 compression stock? Greater efficiency and better emissions from just the 14:1, better torque from the 16X proportions (which helps boost mileage just from being able to lug lower RPMs), smaller package, lighter engine, etc...
An example, and probably not entirely accurate, but just to illustrate what I mean here. If they are moving on from 16X, it doesn't mean square 1, or that it was a waste. I think that it means that they made another leap in technology before it could see the light of day.
09-07-2010, 07:01 PM
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They still design, develop, and product small piston engines for cars, in fact, smaller ones with crazy power too. Our rotary doesn't necessarily have to get bigger to be better
09-07-2010, 07:28 PM
#13
to give mazda credit. the piston engine is well over 100 years old, the rotary engine is less than half that age and they are already talking about catching up in fuel mileage. It will be very interesting to see if they can increase the power and fuel mileage like ford was able to do with the new mustang engine.
The original engine in my mustang before I dropped the 427 in it was a 4.6L was a 281CID pushing 305HP at 300lbs of torque. I believe I was getting around 14city 18highway realistically before the engine swap. Now in the new base GT model 4.6L they are getting 300hp and 320lbs of torque and mind you mine was supercharged cobra model, this is just the base model engine. I cant account for what the fuel mileage is but ford claims its better.
This is after almost 16 years of development with the 4.6L engine, it first showed up in mustangs around 1994 I believe. If it took ford 16 years to make this kind of improvement and Mazda is talking about doing it in 8 then I give them major props for being to make such improvements in half the time of other companies. Just look at dodge, their fuel mileage keeps getting worse and worse and for very little performance improvement. I'm really excited to see where Mazda takes the rotary engine and I'm glad they haven't dropped and forgotten it like Chrysler did with the turbine auto engine.
The original engine in my mustang before I dropped the 427 in it was a 4.6L was a 281CID pushing 305HP at 300lbs of torque. I believe I was getting around 14city 18highway realistically before the engine swap. Now in the new base GT model 4.6L they are getting 300hp and 320lbs of torque and mind you mine was supercharged cobra model, this is just the base model engine. I cant account for what the fuel mileage is but ford claims its better.
This is after almost 16 years of development with the 4.6L engine, it first showed up in mustangs around 1994 I believe. If it took ford 16 years to make this kind of improvement and Mazda is talking about doing it in 8 then I give them major props for being to make such improvements in half the time of other companies. Just look at dodge, their fuel mileage keeps getting worse and worse and for very little performance improvement. I'm really excited to see where Mazda takes the rotary engine and I'm glad they haven't dropped and forgotten it like Chrysler did with the turbine auto engine.
09-07-2010, 07:57 PM
#14
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IMO..the "leap" in technology will come from external ADD ons to Rotary, not so much the "internals" alone as there really is only limited reconstruction available without causing another set of issues to overcome.
09-07-2010, 08:35 PM
#15
My guess is they will retain the new 1.6 dimensions which in this case has a very good combustion area vs 13B and take advantage of the benefits as well of the longer stroke for fuel efficiency. They are probably playing with compression ratios a bit as well, injector types and locations. Some of the theories from piston engines are a little hard to apply but these guys are crafty; I have hope.
Paul.
Paul.
09-07-2010, 08:37 PM
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Not to mention the rotary has been developed mostly by one small company (Mazda) vs hundreds of other car manufacturers all over the world working on all kinds of piston engines for many different applications.
09-07-2010, 08:55 PM
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very deeply back into the basic design of rotary
09-08-2010, 04:40 AM
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to me means the geometry. the thing about 14:1 was the writer just commenting on what some of the tech behind the SKy-G was. there was no mention making the next rotary have that kind of compression. But they could, in messing with the geometry, increase the compression by using LDR. They havent done that since the 12a and it would be covered by the above quote.
09-08-2010, 06:30 AM
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09-08-2010, 07:09 AM
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09-08-2010, 09:49 AM
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Choosing not to bring it to production doesn't mean they scrap it
They could easily learn something from the 16X, but with emissions and economy goals they can't get the 16X good enough, but what if they can take the learnings from the 16X and make a 14X, 13X, 12X, 10X, or even smaller to get them in the economy and emissions goals. Doesn't mean the money was wasted at all, just that the prototype evolved further, and evolving could be a size increase or decrease, or no size change at all. Maybe it goes to a 24X. Or 36X. Or 5X.
Maybe it's far fetched, but I'm not trying to convince anyone of what they ARE going to do...I'm trying to break people's minds away from riding around with blinders on as to options Mazda has. They could go anywhere from where they are. About the only option not available to them is to stick with the Renesis (although in a light enough car, that is a decent possibility too, but would have a reputation hurdle).
Don't get stuck on what they can't do, but instead think of the possibilities of what they can do. (Of course, within reason for a mass market car....exotic supreme power car isn't going to get them far)
They could easily learn something from the 16X, but with emissions and economy goals they can't get the 16X good enough, but what if they can take the learnings from the 16X and make a 14X, 13X, 12X, 10X, or even smaller to get them in the economy and emissions goals. Doesn't mean the money was wasted at all, just that the prototype evolved further, and evolving could be a size increase or decrease, or no size change at all. Maybe it goes to a 24X. Or 36X. Or 5X.
Maybe it's far fetched, but I'm not trying to convince anyone of what they ARE going to do...I'm trying to break people's minds away from riding around with blinders on as to options Mazda has. They could go anywhere from where they are. About the only option not available to them is to stick with the Renesis (although in a light enough car, that is a decent possibility too, but would have a reputation hurdle).
Don't get stuck on what they can't do, but instead think of the possibilities of what they can do. (Of course, within reason for a mass market car....exotic supreme power car isn't going to get them far)
Last edited by RIWWP; 09-08-2010 at 09:54 AM.
09-08-2010, 02:52 PM
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