quack_p

I haven't read the C & D review. If someone would care to post it, we could compare. I think the CR review is fair and accurate, so as far as I'm concerned, they remain a credible source of information.

knowledge1213

yep i agree.....with consumer reports on all fronts.......and the reliability is right on the money........

Zaku-8

If an x means small sample size, then I'm not sure how accurate or representative the survey results are. With a yearly production of what, 60000? cars, some owners are goin to be the unlucky ones and receive a car with multiple issues that cause the car to be in the shop many times... Those are lemons, and if you have one then see if your state has good laws to that effect.

But things like fit and finish and reflashes and missing horsepower are not reliability issues. Yet CR includes that because of survey results. Thats why it seems that the CR rating is more like a frustration rating than of reliability.

Benedick

You have to view the reliability ratings in light of some current realities.

1. To those of us who grew up in the '70s and '80s, a below average reliability rating meant that the car would spend more time in the shop than on the road. I know, I owned a couple like that (see my avatar). Great fun to drive... when they worked. But today's cars are incredibly reliable. Car companies are doing a simply outstanding job of making quality cars.

2. The RX-8 is a very new and very different car. This is a new engine, a new platform, a new everything! To expect them to get everything perfect right out of the chute is unrealistic. They did a very good job of putting the car together and have been narrowing in on getting it better and better.

If we put these two factors together and see that RX-8 reliability is slightly below average, I don't think that's too bad at all. There are other cars down there with us that have been out for a couple of years. We have to admit the 8 has some room for improvement. We used to call that character, gives a car some personality.

My opinion, CR is absolutely correct for the 2004 RX-8. I expect reliability will improve with the 2005 and so on. This report is not an indictment of the car, it's a reflection of reality and is not bad at all.

rx8daniel

Mine has exceeded my 'expected' mileage. And has been quite reliable. One has to remember that only readers and at that those with subscriptions, contribute to their surveys. And it is a small possibility that those peeved with issues during the first months of ownership and the first few months that the car were out contributed to CR's 'database'. They had to get this info about last March of this year, 8 months after the car was out. IIRC the 350Z has had it's share of problems.
in the "FWIW" category: none of my Mazda's have been had reliability issues.
And if they build a crossover based on the new "SUV" concept I'll consider strongly getting one though I'm not in general a fan of SUVs - but it'd be likely more fun (and probably nearly as reliable) as our Toyota Sienna.

co3

I'm sure all these issues have been fixed for the 2005 model, right guys?

Grabitquick

Most were addressed long before the 2004 model year closed. I'll stick my neck out and predict that the RX-8 will achieve at least "average" reliability in next year's CR ratings.

Jerome81

The problem with CR is that while they claim to be unbiased, the responders are not.

For instance, a Toyota Camry owner KNOWS that Toyotas are SUPPOSED to be reliable cars. So they are inclined to give their Camry a higher rating than it maybe is supposed to earn. Have an engine tick? In a Toyota its just a fluke. "The car is great. I haven't had any problems"

However, move over to say, a Ford Taurus. Most people know this car is "supposed" to be junk, and they tend to rate it that way. For instance, an engine tick in a Ford Taurus is "typical" and gets reported as such because the Taurus is SUPPOSED to be crap. A Taurus that isn't crap is out of the ordinary and it can't be accurately reported as reliable becuase it isn't supposed to be so.

Anyway two things can be happening here. 1) is that RX-8 owners are expecting too much from their cars. They expect perfect vehicles, and when small issues arise, they are reported as major. 2) people think the car isn't supposed to be the most reliable (rotary engine, 1st year etc) and when they fill in their rankings they are made worse than they really seem. I suspect the 1st is the RX-8 problem.

I used to trust CR, but now I view them with more skepticism. Their auto reviews are terrible, but the reliability is worth looking into. Then get more info from forums for whichever car you're looking for to get a better grasp on the seriousness of the issues. Then combine CR with consumer digest, intellichoice, edmunds, and long-term magazine reviews to get a balanced amount of information on the vehicle. Then decide if it acceptable to you and go from there.

I suspect some 1st year teething problems are the culprit here. Hopefully things will improve.

But bottom line, there really are NO bad cars out there today, from Japan, the USA, or Europe. Some have issues, and you have to decide the risk. For me, the European electrical/computer problems are the ones I will avoid. BMW's may be great, but they scare me with the idea of huge bills after the warranty is over. I don't feel that fear with the Americans or the Japanese for the most part. But thats my level of risk I'm willing to accept. Some people don't care about the electical issues, they love the BMW too much to worry about it. Just risk acceptance I guess.

Nubo

They're not saying it's terrible, just "below average" Cars today are way more reliable than they used to be; the par is pretty high. They're also not saying how *much* below average. They do apparently list the category results, and so anybody reading it can see that all 14 were positive. There's nothing evil or obfuscatory here. They are presenting enough info to draw reasonable conclusions.

The results aren't that surprising. There are some items which caused problems for owners in the first year.

-flooding. Yes, the problem may be largely fixed. Sorry, CR isn't going to give extra credit for that. They are going by survey results and surely some of those people had the car flood. Not starting qualifies as a major reliability issue. Yes, I know that special start procedures are recommended. Unfortunately, that probably isn't going to win the 8 any reliability awards either. An enthusiast isn't going to mind. A soccer mom might.

-Weak AC. Again, some of the complaints were fixed with the updated "amplifier" part. Again, they aren't going to tack on bonus points for a good recovery. On top of that, the reputed fix did not take care of all of the complaints. I guarantee we'll be seeing a lot of AC threads in about 6 months. Does this qualify as a reliability issue? I'd say yes, if the car has AC, it should darn well work.

So, there have been some teething issues here, along with others (squeaky brakes, etc).. Mazda has been addressing these problems. Future years survey results should show an improvement. It's not CR's intent to get to the level of reporting month-by-month status of how problems are being addressed and fixed. It's a yearly thing.

I love my car, but CR looks to be playing fair.

beachdog

Jerome81, have you ever responded to a Consumer Reports survey? I wish I kept one because I would post the questions. CR does not ask owners for opinions therefore attitude or preconceived notions do not enter the picture. They ask very specific questions about problems. Have you had to have your transmission repaired? If yes, how many times? Did it cost anything to repair? How much? They do not ask opinion questions.

I love my 8, but I responded truthfully and reported the failures exactly as they have occurred. I did not report a single subjective observation, totally objective. The fact that the ABS pump broke and simultaneously killed the ABS, TCS and DSC and made the car un-driveable were reported in the appropriate questions. Fact is, I've been driving ABS equipped cars since 1992 and this is the only one that ever had an ABS pump failure. Maybe it is a rarity for any car and maybe it is even rarer in a Mazda RX8, but the fact is that it occurred.

JD Powers, on the other hand asks nothing but opinion questions. Do you like the comfort of the interior? Do you like the styling etc, etc... Complete garbage and paid for by the auto manufacturers.

CR is the most consistant methodology out there. Like it or not, they are factual and compile the most comprehensive infomation of its kind available to the public. If you prefer the information and methodolgy of another publication then ignore CR and follow the advice elsewhere.

yamajj

i read about this car before buying it and based my opinion on what i read. i also know longevity depends on how much care is taken with some things plus how well something is put together.

i have had no problems with mine, but i've only had it going on three months now.

yamajj

Gambit

Isn't JD Power a ranking of customer satisfaction? Those are the kind of questions they should ask to determine that

beachdog

Customer satisfaction survey ie opinions are not valuable to anyone but the manufacturer. Every consumer has different ability to evaluate. My elderly relative is hard of hearing and thinks that his Buick is the quietest car on the road. He is not qualified to judge the product but his opinion is asked and tallied. Different people have different qualifications, different bases of judgement. JD Powers methodologies are not consistant. How else could they conclude year after year that Buicks are great cars?

Omicron

Because Buicks are great cars to the demographic that buys them and responds to the surveys. And they're also pretty good cars for what they are.

But I still say that Consumer Reports is biased against any car that even smacks of a bit of fun. If they had their way we'd all be driving electric powered golf carts with a top speed of 10 MPH, 82 airbags, 50 MPH bumpers, and anti-tip armatures on all 4 sides.

quack_p

Yet they recommend the following cars:

Acura RSX
BMW M3
Nissan 350Z
Porsche Boxster
Subaru WRX STi

The fact that the RX-8 is a fun car is not what's preventing it from getting a CR recommendation -- it's the below average reliability.

quack_p

Are you saying Camry owners are imagining their cars are reliable? Come on now, let's get back to reality. And by the way, the Taurus did receive the CR recommendation, which means it had at least average reliability based on the subscriber survey -- so I think your theory needs a reflash.

Anyway, I think your suggestion about using multiple sources of information is good. The CR review is more practically oriented (e.g. are there enough cupholders, is the car reliable, is the instrument panel clear, etc.), the car magazines are more performance oriented (e.g. how fast did the car go around a track, how quickly can it get to 60, etc.).

I think CR is good at what they do, and the fact that they buy the cars right off the lot like we do and they don't rely on advertising dollars from car makers gives them a leg up on credibility in my view. It's got to be hard for Car and Driver to say what it really thinks about the Ford Mustang when Ford is such an important source of ad revenue.

If you're interested purely in performance and could care less about reliability, fit and finish, non-performance issues, CR is not the right place for information.

rx8daniel

Taking my emotions out of it. not easy. As I recall, in early 2002, the then-salesman at my local dealer, later sales manager, later gone, told me to expect the RX-8 to be out around May. Of 2002. I knew then that it wouldn't be. I'd been following it for literally, years. I put my deposit down in January of 2002.
IT COULD have been out in mid-2002, and then late 2002 and then early 2003. But it wasn't. It is because Mazda did take extra time to get as much right as possible. Maybe too long as when it came out on July 11th of 2003 as a 2004 model it had to meet the new, longer cat requirements for 2004 models, hence the extra delay at port, and the scramble to revise the ECU before moving the cars to the dealers, etc etc etc.
I recall the 'finance' guy at the dealer trying SO hard to push an extended warranty on me as well as an upside down insurance program. Said an exotic car like the 8 was doomed to have problems. I nearly pulled him into the salesroom to let him explain that statement to the sales manager and then to explain to me why I'd want to buy something doomed from them... but mostly I laughed at him and explained essentially that I'd owned RX-7s probably before he was potty-trained and that a NA RX-7 was one of the repeatedly most reliable cars in CR's annual ratings and that I expected no less from this new rotary powered sports car, "exotic" or not, and that I would not even consider extending the warranty, especially for what he wanted for it.
That all said, please remember that not all sales people, service people, etc etc etc employees at dealerships are great, honest, loveable, helpful or even well-trained and/or knowledgable about the cars they try to service or sell. And yes, some are arrogant.
TSBs are a blessing. You, the owner, can review them, decide if they their car exhibits the described problem and if so if you want the dealer to rectify it. It's like free early maintenance. I had them perform the A/C "fix". I'm not sure it really helped. Now when I turn the A/C on it almost always goes to 'recirc' from 'fresh air' even though I didn't ask it to. And sometimes it goes back. It doesn't seem to always do the same thing. I can't figure it out. I think I liked it better before. But it's done. Does that make my car unreliable. Does 1 or 2 or 5 TSBs? nope. A recall doesn't even make it unreliable. It does identify a potential problem with dire results if it takes place. So the owner should take action. Make it unreliable? Seldom. Grow up folks.
I'm thoroughly disappointed with CR's statement about below average. I noted the better and much-better ratings in the various categories as well. And compared those to other models and other makes' ratings.
If you do the math -1997-2004 model years and figure the RX-8 came out in July and that they send the questionaires out in Janury or February - as I recall -someone correct me if I'm wrong - they probably had less than 300 owners of 8's respond. So I'm surprised they gave it a rating at all.
But to say that the RX-8 cannot be reliable is just an immature baseless rant.
To say it won't is pretty much the same.
But - I'm pretty much satisfied that those who don't like the 8 or didn't like theirs don't buy one or sell theirs. Good riddance, I say!