rotarygod

There's no point in comparing a new 8 or even a next gen 7 to a Nissan GTR. You may as well compare it to a Bugatti Veyron. They are both well out of the price range.

I also wouldn't compare it to an EVO. If Mazda wanted an EVO competitor, they'd need to take a cheaper car such as an MS3 and give it AWD. That would be the type of car that would compare. A true sports car against an economy car that's been improved upon just aren't comparable. I don't care if they both have similar roadgoing capabilities. They are differnet types of cars.

You need to remember that cars like the EVO, STi, etc are aimed at the younger crowd who wants fast without driving talent. Kids don't know how to drive for crap now. They need cars that can help them out. AWD does that. It does some amazing things when other cars could lose it. They also want to go fast without doing what hot rodders did which was innovate. They want it all now with no effort. These cars do that. These cars capabilities for the price is extrordinary but the crowd they are aimed at is specific.

No one would claim that a GTR is aimed at the same crowd. Kids may like it but they aren't going to buy it. A new RX-7 priced at $40K would be too pricey for most kids. At least I hope it is and I hope parents wouldn't buy them for their kids. Sadly I know this not to be true.

I compare vehicles on more than just how fast they are or how well they corner. I don't care if car A has just as much performance capability as car B. That's only a part of the story. If car A is based on a Civic and priced in the upper 20's and car B is a Vette and priced in the 50's, but strangely enough are as fast and corner as hard as each other, they still aren't comparable. Kids don't understand this. You see people on forums all the time bragging that their modded little turbo econo-thing beat a Ferrari, or that their Z-28 beat a Ferrari. So what? At the end of the day, you aren't in a Ferrari! Not comparable! Different price point. Different target audience. Different design goals. See how that works?

Mazda concentrates on making cars that do what they want. They don't care if some punk judges a car solely on how fast it can go in a straight line. It's a total package aimed at a certain market. When you make a comparison to other cars along the same set of criteria, their cars are actually quite competitive with others. They know that. Mazda doesn't need a 300 hp RX-7 that can do 0-60 in yesterday. They need a quick, fun, good handling, nice looking car that is affordable for their target audience. I have no doubt they'll accomplish this as they always have.

chetrickerman

like i said, mazda doesnt care about the competition. as long as they keep making money they will make cars their way. I dont care if the evos and sti's can whoop my *** in a straight line because they dont compare as RG said. you guys can complain all you want about the lack of power, but mazda doesnt care. they will make what they want and think is successful. if you dont like that it will only have 280 hp, then dont buy it. im not being a dick, you just have to face the facts

but i dont want to turn this into another lack of power debate, so back on topic, i think we should just support mazda and what they are doing, and continue to mod our own cars.

ASH8

Well put RG!!..

I totally agree with you..

An RX-8 is a rotary...there IS NO OTHER CAR ON THE ROAD LIKE IT...FULL STOP.!

Owners here who truly love their RX-8's are because of what the car does, it's engine, handling, seating capacity, styling, versatility, smooooooothness, and most importantly like ALL of Mazda's current crop of cars..."HOW they make your FEEL"..not for what it does not do.

I have trolled many US, Australian and UK Forums on the MX-5's and RX-8's.
So many of the owners can't wait to drive their "motors' at the end of work or on the weekends... Many also could and have owned much more expensive marques like BMW, Porsche, MB and even Audi's but give their Mazda top marks in the "bang for your buck" appeal.

http://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread...2&page=1&pp=25

Rotary Soul

for sure, i agree with you guys... hey if i didn't want those qualities in my car i wouldn't have bought the 8. i'm waiting for the next rotary car with the rest of you guys, and i sure as hell wouldn't trade my 8 for an evo or a 350. it's just a little sad to see the rotary cars falling away from the top level performer that it was in the 70s ~ 90s (at least among japanese manufacturers). hell i'd be content with a 280hp rotary, i have limited track experience so i probably can't handle a more powerful rwd car anyway. but for a company that used to try to compete with porsche, it woulda been nice to see a significant upgrade, that's all i'm saying.

Old Rotor

One of the reasons the RX-8 dose so well against the other higher HP cars is how well it's Balanced the car is built around the Rotary engine Low and centered in the chassis, lower weight, suspension supple and how in the higher RPM range the Rotary screams. Of course where the piston engine growls in the low RPM's, the rotary is at it's weakest torque, though much better then the early 10a and 12a. I think the 16X will give the Rotary that low torque we are missing and still give us almost all that high RPM power it's good at.

Spin9k

You guys do a great job of rationalizing the rotary's impending long difficult haul towards the 16X. The fact you're resigned to rationalizing at all is telling.

Point is, I would dare say, is that none of us want for the rotary car itself. I love how the RX-8 handles, it's style, it's ergonomics, it's lightweight chassis, it's ability to take mods of style, suspension, etc. so well and look fresh and exciting. I don't really notice that it's almost 5 yrs in production. It's still a rare beauty in so many ways. But more power/torque is (obviously) front and center on everyone's mind for the 16X. It's just Mazda has to deal with emissions and consumption too.

Mazda is working on what will sell and work under future constraints so they are certainly not putting all their eggs in the rotary basket. Of the six Mazda concepts out there (Sassou, Kabura, Ryuga, Senku, Negare, and Hakaze) reference http://www.mazda.ca/root.asp only the Senku/Nagare are on paper designed with a rotary, and NONE specifically with the 16X but rather both use a hybrid or hydrogen rotary. Kabura has been said to be a maybe, but is billed as a piston design.

The 16X is their shot in the dark for the gas rotary, and being early in design, unproven, and untested, as they admit, means there's a good chance it won't succeed. By succeed I mean make sufficient or more HP, while improving economy (!) and emissions to provide a powerplant worthy of use in 3-5-7 yrs, or whenever and THEN last another car product cycle of 5-7-10 yrs. That's a tall order.

What Mazda and we are all looking for is a way out of the rotary engine conundrum. The conundrum being that the current state of rotary engine design has had all the NA HP wrung out of it possible, with less than stellar economy. Period. Mazda has known this all along, and we've all proven it with failing to produce significanly more power w/mods of any type short of FI.

Without meeting those goals, the future of the gasoline rotary will be sealed as an even less significant niche engine or it will simply die in the face of improved piston/hybrid competition. To succeed, they'll need luck and determination, plus a big bankroll. If they don't, Mazda will only keep the gas rotary alive for bragging rights, and only if such extravegances are allowed by corporate economics. Sadly, we may have to rationalize that senario one day, regardless of what they say now.

chetrickerman

very good post spin, but i guess we will have to se what the future has in store for us. Im sure mazda will release updates, or drawbacks on how the engine is doing.

The Mighty Red

The rotary is nice - but given its torque and emissions limitations/challenges perhaps they should go electric with a setup similar to that in the Tesla. I'd be fine with a hi-torque RX that could go "from 0 to 60 in about 4 seconds and go 250 miles on a single charge". Plus think of the fuel savings at $3+ a gallon not to mention zero emissions.

The only trick would be to make it as equally affordable as the current RX. I really don't see any donside to that (other than being limited to 250 miles per charge).

LionZoo

And how easy do you think it is to make it around the price point of the current RX-8?

RXLogic

It has occurred to me that "X" = "experimental". If and when there is a production version of the engine, it will probably have a different letter -- like 16C.

Cattywampus

I think they are just showing the potential. I have started to look at all Rx-8 and rotary changes as just simple concepts. That way I don't get any hope up that I have left.

Rotary13B1

Dear Mazda: Can you just make the FD AGAIN? A reg 13BREW will be fine.

You guys can fix these cars at the dealership now right? lol

That is all...

F22C1

I see a lot of people hoping for a 280hp 16x (and 300hp just sounds totally far away). I just hope that there isn't disappointment all over again when the real world numbers are maybe ~250-265hp.

I recall last time they tried to aim the Renesis at 280 bhp but then somethings got in the way. And now we are only left with ~180 rwhp.

Jedi54

iTrader: (7)

YUP!
I wish people would put down the damn "specs sheet" for a minute and actually DRIVE the cars.

F22C1

Is that the USDM FD3S that was at the top of the heap or the JDM one because I read the JDM one was underrated in hp specs.

alloyicon

This is one of the best threads I have read. Everyone is contributing with some very well thought out opinions, many of which I agree with. Every car is designed with many compromises. Mazda gave those fortunate enough to own an RX-8 a truly amazing car that offers an unprecedented amount of daily driver usability in such a tightly focused sports car. Yes the Rotary engine is Mazda's defining technological masterpiece. Many have tried, but only Mazda has had the determination to forge ahead in the face of all the adversity. Mazda has in the past bet the future of the entire company in the mist of the 1970's oil crisis by producing the only rotary powered car. Through all of the teething problems with regard to reliability and emissions they have soldiered on. We have to believe that if there is a way for Mazda to keep the rotary flame alive, Mazda is the company that will do it. I beleive the rotary has a place in the aviation world. The rotary engine is well suited for more than use in sports cars. I believe that as far as reciprocating internal combustion engines are concerned, there is a future for Mazda's Rotary engine in light aircraft due to its lightweight, compact size and very low levels of vibration. The 16X is rumored to run on kerosene based fuels. If this is true than can run on jet aircraft fuel. The ultimate light aircraft engine would be a jet fuel burning, direct injected diesel compression ignition rotary. The following link is a company that is in the process of getting FAA certification on the 13B RENISIS engine for aircraft use. I may make a new thread for this as I seemed to have gone off on a new subject entirely.


http://www.mistral-engines.com/

rotarygod

Those actually aren't Renesis engines but rather the conventional 13B engine. You can tell from the exhaust ports. They do make a very nice looking package though.

Before anyone gets overly excited about them, when they say X amount of horsepower at 2200 rpm, they don't mean engine rpm. It's at the prop which has somewhere around a 3:1 reduction to it.

rollerbldes

But.. it has said 2010!

http://www.speedtv.com/articles/tech...omotive/36350/

rotormech

Hahhhhh....I guess I heard the truth. There is a certain corparation that holds the patent to direct injection on Rotary engines....and it isn't Mazda. That could explain what I have heard.

The biggest problem with fuel econemy with a rotary is the overlap between intake and exhaust. The best way to improve MPG is to move the injector closer to the spark plug and direct inject.

This may be common knowledge to you guys but I was just told a few months ago who holds the patent to that technology....and maybe someone is waiting for the patent to run out. Until 2011 maybe?

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

Mazda doesn't hold the patent to any of the technology in the Renesis.
Or, very little, at best.
Every manufacturer of fuel injection in the world pays a royalty to Bosch, for instance.

rotormech

Let me start again. Most people know why the Rotary engine is not fuel efficient. Engineers long ago knew how to improve this. A certain *cough* company created a patent that explained how to make a rotary more efficient. That company just sat on the plans and now nobody can use that engineering to make a more efficient rotary for comercial use. Indivduals are allowed to use that technology for racing purposes only. People (with their private money) have tried to make the idea work.
Until the patent runs out...Injector location on a rotary engine can't change from the lower manifold.

Can you guess which oil company owns the patent?


At least, that is how I understand it

LionZoo

This sounds suspiciously like the 100 mpg carburetor story...

RWagz

I love conspiracy theorists.

Spin9k

If it's a patent, it's no secret, why don't you just show us the patent and we can judge (choke..) for ourselves?

zoom44

there is no overlap in the renesis