Video games made my car better...
06-13-2007, 10:09 AM
#26
...is it over yet?
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ok, after i read this thread...i went to 3 hollywood videos and 1 blockbuster looking for forza 2, all this talk about wheel pressure and fast, zoom zoom made me excited. Turns out there isnt an availiable forza 2 for rent (i dont have the immediate cash to go buy it.) so in desperate need of a video game to play i rented NFS carbon...its ok, but like all the NFS games it was completely unrealistic. Kinda fun to put a 11k wide body kit on an RX-8 in an hour or so. wewt =)
06-13-2007, 10:25 AM
#27
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Wow... I think there's way too much bias going on here. While both games are racing sims, I really never even thought of them as real competitors. Yeah, they have a lot in common, and they are trying to one-up each other, but their presentation and gameplay are clearly going in opposite directions.
GT, since the original PSone version, has always put looking real above everything else. Second to appearence, came feel. The cars drive with as much realism as possible, but there have always been bizzare gaps in their physics.
Now, I wont lie - GT3 is still my favorite racing sim of all time, but it's certainly not the best. The replays were amazing to watch, and you can tell a great deal of time and effort went into the elaborate camera angles, the glorious backgrounds, and the Bemani-inspired music-video-style replay feature. But in terms of gameplay, the game was severely lacking. You ended up doing the exact same thing over and over and over and over and over. After passing the 10% mark in career mode, all you ever did was buy a car, buy every "racing" grade part in the shop, change your oil, and proceed blow the competition out of the water in their near-stock cars.
Races quickly became more of a mandatory waiting period between winning cars. I mean, let's be honest, as you were on lap 88 of the bone-stock-miata-marathon race, were you enjoying yourself in the least? Did you ever feel like you were actually driving that car? Probably not.
Now, before all you GT fans get on my case, I know that if you wanted, you COULD de-tune your car just a bit and/or turn up the difficulty to get more of a challenge out of your rivals... but I don't think anyone ever did. The gameplay was just unrewarding to many - the winners of the races were pretty much pre-determined, and the navigation of turns didn't require much concious thought after a while.
Anyone who's played GT3 can tell you a story that goes something like: The last race of the series was 100 laps, but I was 9 points ahead of the guy in 2nd, so all I would have to do is make sure that guy didn't get first and I'd win the series! So I spend 20 minutes constantly crashing into the guy in 2nd, until he was 10 laps behind, then quit the race thinking "cool - I just saved myself an hour of time," only to find out that the ****** finished in first place anyways!
But it wasn't just GT3 that was like that. GT1, GT2, GT3, and even GT4 were all the same way. They all looked AMAZING, they all had a SHITLOAD of cars, and they all drove amazingly realistic when stock. However, they all went from "video games" to "chores" by the 50% mark, they all started to feel mathematically predictable as you progressed, and they all offered less and less gameplay fun as the completion percentage climbed.
Now let's look at the Forza games...
In no way, shape, or form, do I find the graphics in Forza 2 to be anything beyond what the Sega Dreamcast was capable of, the replay angles suck - hell - the replay feature as a whole SUCKS. Neither game was really all that pretty to look at, nor did they have a very impressive selection of cars. When the dealerships in GT said "30 Hondas" available, they actually gave you 30 different Honda's to choose from. When the dealerships in Forza say "30 Hondas" available, what they really mean is they have 10 S2k's and 20 Civics available, each dressed up with a different company's logo.
GT seems like the all-around winner until you get your car out on the track. Once you put your rubber to the road you'll know where the Forza developers spent the majority of their time and money. The cars don't brake, gas, and steer with the mechanical perfection (or imperfection) that GT cars do. All the controls feel... "dirtier" than the GT counterparts, much like in the real world.
In the GT games, turns were about mashing the steering button all the way as you negotiated with the trottle. In Forza, however, you're working the wheel and the pedals around every turn, and no matter how many times you take the same turn, you'll never take it the same way twice. It may look the same to any spectators in the room, but your aching fingers know what really happened.
And as for the all-too-common GT strategy of "buy my <insert $18,000 car here>, max it out at the tuner shop, and win 85% of all the races in the game with the same entry-level car"? Yeah - that **** wont work in Forza. A hunk-o-**** car with 2000WHP & $30,000 suspension might handle like an Enzo in the world of GT, but on Planet Forza, it'll handle like the over-powered hunk-o-**** that it is.
Modifying cars in Forza requires a bit more brains than "one of everything, please." You need to pick your cars and your parts carefully if you plan on winning anything. While GT may think 5 stock Integras belong on the same track with a Jet-propelled Civic on F1 slicks, Forza will be more than happy to find you some tuned Vipers and Vettes to consume you.
FM2 actually requires you to know where you stand as a driver, and challenges you to intentionally de-tune your car in some ways if you think it'll give you that edge you need.
CliffNotes Version:
GT is all about recreating the visuals. Everything about the game, including the inflexible controls, are all there for one reason - to make the replay look INCREDIBLE.
Forza is all about recreating the feeling. Everything about the game is about managing and modifying your car to drive in a way so that you can control it - turning a car into your car.
Both games give 2 VERY different highs, thus I can't see the logic in comparing them.
It's like pitting Vodka up against Vicodine just because they both make you more giggly.
GT, since the original PSone version, has always put looking real above everything else. Second to appearence, came feel. The cars drive with as much realism as possible, but there have always been bizzare gaps in their physics.
Now, I wont lie - GT3 is still my favorite racing sim of all time, but it's certainly not the best. The replays were amazing to watch, and you can tell a great deal of time and effort went into the elaborate camera angles, the glorious backgrounds, and the Bemani-inspired music-video-style replay feature. But in terms of gameplay, the game was severely lacking. You ended up doing the exact same thing over and over and over and over and over. After passing the 10% mark in career mode, all you ever did was buy a car, buy every "racing" grade part in the shop, change your oil, and proceed blow the competition out of the water in their near-stock cars.
Races quickly became more of a mandatory waiting period between winning cars. I mean, let's be honest, as you were on lap 88 of the bone-stock-miata-marathon race, were you enjoying yourself in the least? Did you ever feel like you were actually driving that car? Probably not.
Now, before all you GT fans get on my case, I know that if you wanted, you COULD de-tune your car just a bit and/or turn up the difficulty to get more of a challenge out of your rivals... but I don't think anyone ever did. The gameplay was just unrewarding to many - the winners of the races were pretty much pre-determined, and the navigation of turns didn't require much concious thought after a while.
Anyone who's played GT3 can tell you a story that goes something like: The last race of the series was 100 laps, but I was 9 points ahead of the guy in 2nd, so all I would have to do is make sure that guy didn't get first and I'd win the series! So I spend 20 minutes constantly crashing into the guy in 2nd, until he was 10 laps behind, then quit the race thinking "cool - I just saved myself an hour of time," only to find out that the ****** finished in first place anyways!
But it wasn't just GT3 that was like that. GT1, GT2, GT3, and even GT4 were all the same way. They all looked AMAZING, they all had a SHITLOAD of cars, and they all drove amazingly realistic when stock. However, they all went from "video games" to "chores" by the 50% mark, they all started to feel mathematically predictable as you progressed, and they all offered less and less gameplay fun as the completion percentage climbed.
Now let's look at the Forza games...
In no way, shape, or form, do I find the graphics in Forza 2 to be anything beyond what the Sega Dreamcast was capable of, the replay angles suck - hell - the replay feature as a whole SUCKS. Neither game was really all that pretty to look at, nor did they have a very impressive selection of cars. When the dealerships in GT said "30 Hondas" available, they actually gave you 30 different Honda's to choose from. When the dealerships in Forza say "30 Hondas" available, what they really mean is they have 10 S2k's and 20 Civics available, each dressed up with a different company's logo.
GT seems like the all-around winner until you get your car out on the track. Once you put your rubber to the road you'll know where the Forza developers spent the majority of their time and money. The cars don't brake, gas, and steer with the mechanical perfection (or imperfection) that GT cars do. All the controls feel... "dirtier" than the GT counterparts, much like in the real world.
In the GT games, turns were about mashing the steering button all the way as you negotiated with the trottle. In Forza, however, you're working the wheel and the pedals around every turn, and no matter how many times you take the same turn, you'll never take it the same way twice. It may look the same to any spectators in the room, but your aching fingers know what really happened.
And as for the all-too-common GT strategy of "buy my <insert $18,000 car here>, max it out at the tuner shop, and win 85% of all the races in the game with the same entry-level car"? Yeah - that **** wont work in Forza. A hunk-o-**** car with 2000WHP & $30,000 suspension might handle like an Enzo in the world of GT, but on Planet Forza, it'll handle like the over-powered hunk-o-**** that it is.
Modifying cars in Forza requires a bit more brains than "one of everything, please." You need to pick your cars and your parts carefully if you plan on winning anything. While GT may think 5 stock Integras belong on the same track with a Jet-propelled Civic on F1 slicks, Forza will be more than happy to find you some tuned Vipers and Vettes to consume you.
FM2 actually requires you to know where you stand as a driver, and challenges you to intentionally de-tune your car in some ways if you think it'll give you that edge you need.
CliffNotes Version:
GT is all about recreating the visuals. Everything about the game, including the inflexible controls, are all there for one reason - to make the replay look INCREDIBLE.
Forza is all about recreating the feeling. Everything about the game is about managing and modifying your car to drive in a way so that you can control it - turning a car into your car.
Both games give 2 VERY different highs, thus I can't see the logic in comparing them.
It's like pitting Vodka up against Vicodine just because they both make you more giggly.
Also in GT4 i pitted my CSL M3(500HP) against other opponents on level 7 and up,and i went against a Mercedes D2 Gt racer, Zonda GT spec,Ford Gt spec etc.... and i didn't win. And my CSL is built to handle like its on rails. Your talking to a guy who ran the Nuringburg in his Mercedes Sauber GT car in 5:29. Which i built to handle instead of building it to be a straitaway rocket ship.
So even if you do have a hopped up POS close to 1000 HP and you pit it against some high level comp on a technical track or tracks, you will have your hands full.
Now if you have a 1000HP POS and you run the same tough group on a track like Sarthe(24hour lemans track) then hands down you will dominate, but that is because 80% of the track is straitaways. So GT IMO is close to real life as just like Forza in that aspect.
High horsepower won't guarante you a win.
Last edited by DailyDriver2k5; 06-13-2007 at 10:29 AM.
06-13-2007, 01:30 PM
#28
printf("</%i pistons",3);
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GT4 IMO is GT3 2.0. There are curves you won't be taking the same speed twice, especially if your tire wear is on.
Yes, as your tires wear you lose traction and all that, but you still take turns exactly the same in terms of what you do with the controller; mash the directional button down as you play with the trottle controls. All that really changes is your timing. That's what I meant by "take the same turn the same way."
Also in GT4 i pitted my CSL M3(500HP) against other opponents on level 7 and up,and i went against a Mercedes D2 Gt racer, Zonda GT spec,Ford Gt spec etc.... and i didn't win. And my CSL is built to handle like its on rails. Your talking to a guy who ran the Nuringburg in his Mercedes Sauber GT car in 5:29. Which i built to handle instead of building it to be a straitaway rocket ship.
So even if you do have a hopped up POS close to 1000 HP and you pit it against some high level comp on a technical track or tracks, you will have your hands full.
Now if you have a 1000HP POS and you run the same tough group on a track like Sarthe(24hour lemans track) then hands down you will dominate, but that is because 80% of the track is straitaways. So GT IMO is close to real life as just like Forza in that aspect.
High horsepower won't guarante you a win.
High horsepower won't guarante you a win.
You entered a maxed-out performance car into a tuned supercar race and had trouble...
You entered a rocket into a touring car race and dominated...
...how does this prove that Forza's "Pick on someone your own size" system is the same as GT's "Everyone in this race will have a rating of XX, but you can bring whatever you want" system??
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