Star Mazda Atlantic

There are a lot of comments about winter driving but I don't see any posts really explaining so here is my attempt. Lots of people imply that because it is a sports car that in winter the best you can do is try to mitigate the awfulness and any random passenger car should work better. It just isnt true.

Front wheel drive does not somehow have more traction then rear wheel drive. It is actually less efficient hence why rear wheel drive is used in racing and sports cars in the first place. Rear wheel drive can do 2 things really. The 1st is it can hide the loss of traction in a vehicle from unaware or unskilled drivers without causing catastrophic incident. It doesn't create more traction. It hides the error. The second thing it can do is correct the error which is bad traction from the vehicle having bad weight balance such as huge engine in the front of the car. It still isn't adding extra traction. It is helping to correct the loss of traction from the (design) error.

This is also why those people with Mustangs or pickup trucks put sand bags or whatever in the back. This is an attempted corrective measure to the poor balance. The RX-8 works better then average in winter and snow since it has a good weight balance and suspension to begin with. Lack of these corrective measures is irrelevant when the car does not have this problem in the first place.

What doesn't work in winter is high performance tires. This has nothing to do with the car! Get winter tires. Also huge wide low profile tires are not best for winter.

215/55R-17 Bridgestone Blizzak
These dedicated winter tires on my RX-8 work better then any stupid All Season tires ever did on a front wheel drive passenger car.


I just want to point out I am talking about total traction of the vehicle. In other words, if you were likely to get stuck. If you understand how to drive it properly is a different question. If you are going to drive a rear wheel drive car then you should probably learn about how it handles differently from front wheel drive no matter if it is winter or summer.

jasonrxeight

one advantage with FWD is that the torque turns with the front tires while RWD is always pushing forward.

RWD is for me to do this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOrqvgjv6TQ

Beodude

iTrader: (3)

That post makes no sense. FWD definitely has more traction in the snow than RWD. First, you have the weight over the front wheels. Then, you have the wheels pulling you in the direction that you want to go.

My automatic ZX2 did absolutely awesome in the snow. Never had a problem with traction except in super deep snow.

Good snow tires are pretty important either way.

Tiler02

The 8 does great in the snow. We have a little ice covered with about an inch of snow, I went to an empty parking lot and pushed it. With the traction control it was hard to make the car slide. Once it was turned off it would slide very easy. I had fun!

Roidz

Werd!

ken-x8

On snow or other slippery surfaces, front wheel drive does exactly one thing better than rear wheel drive. If you give it too much gas and the wheels spin, the back of the car does not slip out sideways. That's actually a lot if you're trying to make it up a slick hill. Not much at all if you're trying to stop.

All of the other details of traction, weight, braking, etc. are vehicle dependent. Vehicle dynamics that make sense for high performance racing situations generally do not apply on snow because traction, and hence weight transfer, is much less.

Ken

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

I mused about the same oddity from the OP's post, and i think it's just a typo. Read it with the descriptions mostly applying to FWD, and it works.

I've made a post about this somewhere before.

Basically "sports car in winter" = taboo for 99.9% of the masses, because they are taking an end result of a number of factors and applying it universally, rather than actually picking apart the problem.

Typically, RWD sports cars have:
- Lots of low end torque (harder to stay under the torque limit of the snow/ice)
- Summer performance tires (not designed for snow/ice)
- Front heavy (reduction of comparative weight balance over the drive tires)
- Low ground clearance (takes less snow to be unable to clear it)

Even 'weight' isn't the issue, but the pounds per square inch of the tire contact patch against the snow/ice. Adding weight increases this. But so does going to a smaller contact patch (thinner and/or smaller tires) Same weight, less space, more PSI.

So these primary 4 factors add up into more difficulty if not properly addressed

On the FWD side, cars are:
- Lower torque (easier to stay under the torque limit)
- Typically equiped with all season tires (better than summers for snow/ice)
- Front heavy (increase in comparative weight balance over the drive tires)
- Higher ground clearance

So they are already a step ahead if the owner does nothing.

Then AWD/4WD vehicles are:
- Geared for lower speeds typically (easier to stay under the torque limit)
- Typically equipped with all season or aggressive 'off road' tires (better than summers)
- Weight balance doesn't mean much of use here
- Higher ground clearance

So they are even farther ahead.

The OP's post certainly is still accurate (when corrected for typos), FWD hides errors, inefficiency, and general poor design when it comes to winter driving. RWD doesn't hide it, and is more prone to bite people that don't address it correctly.

I get loads of crap at work about driving a RWD sports car in the winter up here, though it's 99% co-workers unwilling to listen to the reasoning, or the steps taken to mitigate the problem.

A) The RX-8 doesn't have lots of low end torque
B) I have fantastic winter tires on
C) Weight balance is neutral

...not much I can do reasonably about the ground clearance, but really, if the RX-8 is plowing snow, it means that the DOT hasn't....

Every winter I end up driving around SUVs, pickups, even a jeep once, stuck on the hill into work. Last winter I even went off the snow-pack over the paved road to the fluff on the shoulder to drive around an SUV that was stuck and couldn't get any farther. The level of shock apparent from other drivers is quite satisfying

Star Mazda Atlantic

Doh I did make a stupid typo, sorry

yes, exactly that.

It seems some people believe that FWD actually has more traction which is what I was trying to dispel.

Having the weight over either end and not in the center is a design imperfection which is lessening traction.

Having the same 2 wheels trying to both turn you and accelerate is actually less efficient. You have only 2 wheels providing traction instead of 4.

The other thing is many standard passenger cars have an open differential. This means really it only takes 1 wheel to get stuck and that is it, you are stuck. With a limited slip differential you can only really get stuck if both drive wheels are stuck. In the RX8 you will NEVER have the classic stuck in the show scenario of one wheel spinning while the other is stuck in a snow bank and does not turn. This is the classic way people get stuck in front wheel drive passenger cars. If you have questions about this I suggest watching the movie "My Cousin Vinny" for the sexiest ever explanation of rear differentials by Marrissa Tomei. (actually im not sure if the Automatic version has this or only the manual? in which case you might actually be more likely to get stuck if you have an auto)


These are exactly the same problems as in racing. The change in the in level of traction because of snow means drivers have to worry about at 30 MPH exactly the same questions of traction that a racer might face at 150MPH. This is probably why many of the best racers in the world come from the Scandinavian countries.

jasonrxeight

again, the advantage of FWD is that the torque turns direction. straight line acceleration is pretty much the same FWD vs RWD, which are both not as good as 4WD.
however RWD the torque is always forward while the front wheels doing the turning, and turning is resistance thats why you car slows down when you turn, which makes the rear tires work harder.
with FWD, the torque turns with the front tires. so when you turn and accelerate, the torque pulls the car to that direction not forward.
a simple test is if you go to supermarket you will find pushing the kart around a corner is much harder than say pulling the kart.

Marklar

It's easier to maintain control when the front wheels spin rather than the rear wheels, because you are steering with the front wheels and recovery is more intuitive. I'm glad most people have FWD these days, they need the training wheels.

But having the engine over the drive wheels really does matter to some degree, not so much in handling as if you get stuck. Extra weight will increase friction, but snow tires/chains/studs make WAY more difference.

Also, the stock tires on the 8 really suck in cold/wet weather, it's really the tires that make winter driving difficult in the 8.

Beodude

iTrader: (3)

I wonder how a mid front layout works in the snow? Obviously for the best handling, you would want to have weight as even as possible. I think for snow traction though, having the highest amount of weight over the drive wheels is best. That way you have more lbs / sq ft on the tire.

I could be wrong though... I'm no scientologist, and I only have some practical snow driving experience.



Yeah, I know how an open diff works... My Trailblazer and my ZX2 have one...

Great movie by the way, and Marrissa is pretty hot.

ken-x8

Like Brazil?

Ken

BuBuBDunk

The only really big problem I had in the snow is that I picked up so much snow on my OEM kit. Its a pretty low car stock so it was a pain. I did get stuck at one point but I was actually the only car that got as far as I did up the hill. It was funny.