Rems31

I wrote down the govt mpg from their new website. so Im sure there are crossfire owners that get 12mpg seeing as how those are the avg numbers...they list the 8 as 16/23

another one
Hyundai Tiburon 2.7L 172 hp V6
16 / 24

mac11

iTrader: (1)

I know many RX8 owners in person that i talk to regularly. I know 2 that get below 15MPG. And I know how they drive.

Any magazine that has done a long term test of the 8 has gotten ~17+MPG. Almost everyone i know, including myself gets 17+ MPG.

The extent of the damange caused by a broken timing belt depends on the design of the head(s). People will break timing belt (or chain?) on the STi. People will break the timing belt/chain on a saturn. Just because you don't know about it doesn't mean it wont/ hasn't happen.


Carbon buildup will fuxor any motor. It just so happens the rotary produces more of this buildup. Its an inherent part of burning oil in the combustion process. Thats the whole point behind trying to find the oil that will burn the cleanest. Its only a reliability issue if let it by neglecting to learn the things you need to about your $30,000 investment. Would you put $25-30,000 into the stock market without researching and findout out what it was you were buying? If you would I have a business opportunity I'd like you to help me out with. Great return potential.

dragula53

I've not taken the time, but I seriously doubt that a few minutes over at the crossfire or tiburon forums, there will be anybody griping about getting 10-12 miles per gallon.

dragula53

Look, I get 15 miles per gallon in the STI sometimes.. when I really really get on it. But the STI also has 80 extra horsepower, is as aerodynamic as an outhouse, and is all wheel drive.

I was able to get a wide range of mileage with the rx-8 as well. in the summer time I was getting 15-17, no matter how I drove.. 21-22 a couple times if I drove on the highway.

In the winter I was squeezing out 12.. even driving it like a baby. There are those who get 10 no matter what. Also, saying you "must" redline the engine, and you can never turn it off in less than 5 minutes has a detrimental effect on mileage. But that is neither here nor there.

I went back over to the WRX forums... A search for "carbon buildup" also resulted in no instances of engine destruction.

seriously, all of the STI owners must redline their motor every day as well... no.. wait... they don't have to.

I don't know what it is about the internet that makes me so argumentative.

Oh wait, it's you guys.

I'll try to cut back, I swear.

Shini

Why are we comparing apples to oranges? Er I mean Pistons to Rotaries...Because an engine with only 3 moving parts will be identical to the STi's in everyway, so if they don't have to worry about carbon build up, well god damnit neither should we!

...

It's like you're trying to hammer in the square peg in the circles hole...I mean honestly...Give me a break here. You're comparing completley different engines and expecting the same reliability results and issues?

9krpmrx8

iTrader: (46)

Funny my original engine had 20k on it with oil changes and oil filter changes every 3k using Mobil 1 and it just failed one day. I know two other guys locally that were almost in the same exact boat. We all have new engines now. Explain to me how that is user error.

I look forward to your educated response.

9krpmrx8

iTrader: (46)

I am so ****** tired of hearing you idiots say that if you redline this engine it will last longer. There were thousands of affected engines in the recall. I would like to see a list of what other model of cars have had whole engine replacements in the thousands due to a recall.

dragula53

The comparison is here because many are insisting the rotary engine is just as reliable as piston engines, they just need a little tender loving care.

I maintain that they are less reliable (lots more failed engines in rx-8's than in a car that I feel is reliable, the STI).

Not only that, the tender loving care that is required to maintain a similar standard of reliability should not be necessary.

Mileage rants just raise the noise floor. Either you can live with it or you can't.

This is about engines failing in the heat, or just inexplicably. I refuse to believe that the perceived problem is operator error.

With an RX-7, you know what you are getting into. Everybody knows about the vacuum mess and the temperature problems, and the hundreds of little bits that you break when you try to replace anything.

Here, not so much. Everybody seems to be in denial.

The issues are not so great. But blaming it on operator error just won't cut it.

9krpmrx8

iTrader: (46)

The rotary is far less reliable than most piston engines. I have never met a rotary owner with over 200k on a single engine. Not that it has not been done but it 's definitely at rarity. I love the rotary for what it is but soem of you guys are delusional. There is a reason the rotary is only produced widely in Mazda cars.

limepro

well i guess the professionals have something different to say

here ya go for the STI ratings MY 2006 and 2007
http://autos.yahoo.com/subaru_impreza_wrx_sti-ratings/

and the 8 ratings MY 2007 i got them both from the same source
http://autos.yahoo.com/mazda_rx_8/

seems to me the 8 recieved far superior scores than the STI in every concievable way

limepro

some more from different sources and im getting same year info

rx8
http://autos.msn.com/research/vip/re...zda&model=RX-8
http://www.autoblog.com/2006/08/16/m...hour-enduranc/
http://www.channel4.com/4car/road-te...est.jsp?id=259
impreza
http://autos.msn.com/research/vip/re...&model=Impreza
http://autos.nytimes.com/newRatings....styleId=289009
http://www.autosite.com/content/rese...on/Reliability
http://www.channel4.com/4car/road-te...noforward=true

heres a list of recalls for the rx8 and the impreza

impreza
http://consumerguideauto.howstuffwor...-impreza-6.htm
rx8
http://consumerguideauto.howstuffwor...zda-rx-8-2.htm

im editing as i look up more sites its just to give everyone an idea especially for the guy arguing that theres nothing wrong with the STI


and for people that dont feel like looking at all the pages heres the recall lists

NHTSA Recall History
2004 RX-8: Front passenger airbags may be improperly wired, which could result in the airbag not deploying during a crash. Dealer will install a new wiring harness in the front passenger airbag system.
2004 RX-8: On some vehicles, the lower control arm in the suspension may be improperly forged, which could result in a loss of steering control. Dealer will replace the control arms.
2004 RX-8: On vehicles with a manual transmission, the heat insulator may crack, causing an abnormal noise. Dealer will replace the heat insulator.
2004-05 RX-8: If some vehicles are parked with the engine running at a high rpm for an excessive length of time, some parts around the exhaust system can melt, causing damage to other components. The excessive heat can damage the fuel tank, causing it to leak. Dealer will inspect and replace exhaust system parts as necessary.


NHTSA Recall History
2002-03 w/automatic transmission: Defective transmission parking rod may allow vehicle to roll when in Park. Dealers will replace defective paring rod.
2002-03: Driver-seat bolt may loosen, allowing seat to separate from vehicle in crash. Dealers will install a new bolt.
2002-03: Left front bolt that retains forward part of driver+s seat may loosen; bolt will eventually fall out, and seat may separate.
2002-04: Defective cruise control cable might cause vehicle to remain in cruise even though driver wishes to cancel. Dealers will install a retaining clip on the cruise control cable.
2004: Cover bolts for engine oil control valve may not be sufficiently tightened, allowing oil to leak around cover gasket.
2004: Engine oil leak at oil control valve might lead to engine fire. Dealers will inspect and retighten the oil-flow control valve cover bolts.

T-von

The Supra engine is extremely well engineered. Right from the factory is comes with forged internals. So it can most definitely take a beating. Detonation is the rotary's achilles heal, however you heard wrong about the Renesis being much stronger in handling detonation issues. You can't compare the internal loads of a NA engine vs a boosted one. That's an apples to oranges comparison. When detonation occurs under boost, the pressures and temperatures within the combustion chamber are much greater so the engine blows much sooner. It's not just the Renesis, all NA rotary's handle detonation extremely well. The King however is the 13b found in the 84-85 GSL-SE Rx7. This engine had 2 piece 3mm apex seals and easily ran well over 200k consistently.

T-von

!

8 Maniac

iTrader: (1)

I believe rotarygod's fc has over 150k miles, maybe over 200k... not sure exactly. Just throwing that out there. Also, if what was said after the le mans with the 787b, it must be somewhat more reliable than some people here are making it out to be. Not that this is any definitive proof and I'm not saying it's the most reliable.
I think we have 2 extremes here:
1) those who think the engine is a complete failure and is in no way comparable to piston engines in reliability

2) those who think that every failure is due to users, and in no way related to the engine itself

now, both of these statements are bit over-exaggerated on my part, but it seems like this is how some of you are acting...

T-von

RG is one of the few here that actually know how to make his engine last that long, however the 13b found in the Fc is limited. The top piece of it's 3 piece apex seal will easily pop out of the rotor starting in the 120k and up range. It is extremely rare to find a 3 piece sealed rotary last even close to 200k.

Red Devil

The Supra engine is extremely well engineered. Right from the factory is comes with forged internals. So it can most definitely take a beating. Detonation is the rotary's achilles heal, however you heard wrong about the Renesis being much stronger in handling detonation issues. You can't compare the internal loads of a NA engine vs a boosted one. That's an apples to oranges comparison. When detonation occurs under boost, the pressures and temperatures within the combustion chamber are much greater so the engine blows much sooner. It's not just the Renesis, all NA rotary's handle detonation extremely well. The King however is the 13b found in the 84-85 GSL-SE Rx7. This engine had 2 piece 3mm apex seals and easily ran well over 200k consistently.

Sorry, my internet is screwed up and not letting me use quotes...I actually was referring to forced induction RX-8s and reports from some vendors and owners that this engine has proven to be able to take a surprising amount of detonation without blowing out a seal.

Red Devil

Funny my original engine had 20k on it with oil changes and oil filter changes every 3k using Mobil 1 and it just failed one day. I know two other guys locally that were almost in the same exact boat. We all have new engines now. Explain to me how that is user error.

I look forward to your educated response.

Here's an educated response for you...actually READ everything I wrote. I've stated numerous times already that I've been referring to the entire RX series of cars. If you had any basic comprehension skills, you would have already figured that out...I even explicitly clarified a few posts ago.

If I were just talking about the Renesis, why the hell would I list one of my reasons for user error as unreasonable power expectations vs. longevity? Do you think that relates since 99% of us haven't added any significant power upgrades? This, is when user error comes into play...and yeah, I am a firm believer in redlining the car and such...you lost an engine in the recall. Sucks to be you, I'd be pissed also.

But sorry, this isn't about YOUR specific issues, or anyone elses for that matter in regards to the Renesis - as far as MY statements are concerned.

Oh, and I'm not backing down that USER ERROR does cause a significant amount of issues with the ENTIRE RX series of cars.

I await your anything but educated response.

Rems31

So basically, every car in the world should have zero problems if they just research what they should do to their car to keep it running well. Makes sense. So basically every engine out there is 100% reliable and those that break down are just due to user negligence.

T-von

I think the forums data base is screwed up at the moment. I too have to do manual quotes. Anyways, I'm shocked to find that this is the case given the Renesis higher starting compression ratio. My only guess as to why this engine will handle detonation a little better than the older rotary's could possibly be due to the Renesis 2 peice apex seals. The long piece of the older 3 piece seal had a really small top piece that would get very thin and brittle with age. It was very typical for this part of the seal to break under small amounts of detonation. The lower half would always be fine. The two piece Renesis apex seals (though overall smaller) have a more structuraly sound center section. That part is only one long peice of metal so naturally is much harder to break. For this reason alone is why I hated the fact that Mazda even went to a 3 piece design with the fc/fd/20b. They sealed great but were very fragile.

The other reason could be the fact that the Renesis hasn't been truely tested yet. The higher compression will have an impact when these engines start getting to the 400+ rwhp range on pump gas. Time will tell!

Red Devil

I think the forums data base is screwed up at the moment. I too have to do manual quotes. Anyways, I'm shocked to find that this is the case given the Renesis higher starting compression ratio. My only guess as to why this engine will handle detonation a little better than the older rotary's could possibly be due to the Renesis 2 peice apex seals. The long piece of the older 3 piece seal had a really small top piece that would get very thin and brittle with age. It was very typical for this part of the seal to break under small amounts of detonation. The lower half would always be fine.

The two piece Renesis apex seals (though overall smaller) have a more structuraly sound center section. That part is only one long peice of metal so naturally is much harder to break. For this reason alone is why I hated the fact that Mazda even went to a 3 piece design with the fc/fd/20b. They sealed great but were very fragile.

Well, two other things came to mind also...first being that detonation the Renesis has experienced in these scenarios and survived is probably less than 12 psi...while experienced detonation on tuned REWs was more in the range of 17-18psi range on average. That difference in detonation force may be a bit misleading to claim one is stronger than the other.

And second, the placment of the exhaust ports, and now that the apex seals no longer sweep over them perhaps there is less chatter and more of a stable plain for the seals to rest on and resist breaking under detonation.

But I really can only speculate as I don't even know the conditions under which detonation occurred. The last I saw someone make claim of the strength of the Renesis was Speed Force Racing (SFR). They get a bad rap here, but seem to be fairly well respected in the Z community, amongst others.

mac11

iTrader: (1)

Seeing that the corner of the apex seal is glued to the large main section from the factory anymore I have been wondering why do they even still use a 2 piece design? why not just make it solid?

mac11

iTrader: (1)

So basically, every car in the world should have zero problems if they just research what they should do to their car to keep it running well. Makes sense. So basically every engine out there is 100% reliable and those that break down are just due to user negligence.


Failed motors won't ever be eliminated completely. That would be a stupid assertion to make. You will get a bad engine out of any car company across the board from time to time. If someone winds up with a bad motor that its completely understandable. But it doesn't seem like a lot of people are having AN engine replaced. It seems like there are some people having a pair of engines replaced.....or more. For someone to be going through 2, 3, 4 motors in the warranty period there is a very limited amount of things that can be going on: They are one unlucky SOB, whoever is turning the wrench blows, or they are doing something wrong. You are not going to run into a situation - very often - where you have an inherently bad product, prone to failure and ~99% of the users having no problems while 1% of the users getting one problematic product after another. Laws of random distribution would almost guarantee that couldn't happen.

T-von

mac11 The corner piece is only glued for installation purposes. It makes it much easiler to install them. The seals separate during the 1st start-up. Single piece seals don't hold compression in the lower rpms as well as the 2 and older 3 piece designs. The corner piece of the apex seal is designed to wedge itself against the side plates creating a better overall compression seal. A one piece design would have to rely on expansion to create the best seal. The only problem here is once the single piece seal heat cycles to it's maximum length, the ends of the apex seal would erase themselves to the point they no longer would contact the side plates so you would easily loose compression over time.

T-von

Red Devil I re-edited my earlier post about the power differences.

mac11

iTrader: (1)

The higher compression will have an impact when these engines start getting to the 400+ rwhp range on pump gas. Time will tell!

you don't think the higher compression will limit this motor from making that kind of power on pump gas?