RotoRocket

iTrader: (1)

First, mods, do what you will with this thread. If you want to sticky it, great. If you want to move it, I'd rather not you do that, because it will get the most exposure here. But I've always accepted what Elara and all the mods decide, without bitching.

I've thought long and hard about proposing this, but I think the time has come to finally address my (and I'm sure many others') concerns about the issues the Renesis is having with total failure.

Mind you, I have not had any problems with my '05 6MT Sport, yet.

Let me state what I think Mazda should do, and then I'll briefly state my rationale as to why they should agree to do it. All opinions, whether you agree or not, are more than welcome - let's just please try to keep the thread civil.


I think Mazda should extend the factory warranty on the Renesis to 100,000 miles and for at duration of at least 7 years.

Why 100,000 miles? Because that's what a lot of auto companies are offering on their new cars anyways, including Hyundai, Chrysler and General Motors. If they are doing on new cars not particularly known for having specific problems, why would it be too much to ask Mazda to do the same for us, given the reputational hit the Renesis has taken as of late.

Why 7 years? I'm less sure of this. It's greater than the 5 years we have now, and it's still less than the 10 years Hyundai offers. Upon reflection, maybe 7 years should be the absolute minimum, and 10 years should be a more fair and appropriate offering.

The reason why Mazda should agree to this extended warranty is three-fold:

1) Quite a few 8 owners have had their motors replaced due to some design or manufacturing defect (or both). A rebuilt motor, especially when the underlying problem may still exist in the replacement motor, is not exactly confidence inspiring. A lengthened warranty would help mitigate against this lack of confidence.

2) As word of total failures of the Renesis has spread, and is widely known even among non-Mazda owners, there legitimately seems to be fear concerning the reliability of the 8, which has damaged the resale value of the 8 disproportionately to competitive cars. An extended, transferable warranty would certainly help restore some of this resale value by making the perception of the purchase of a used 8 a less risky proposition.

3) Mazda should simply do the right thing and act in accordance with the principles of good corporate governance by placing a high value on their existing customer base. Extending the warranty in such a manner would breed much deeper customer loyalty, help Mazda repair any damage it has suffered regarding current or potential Mazda owners due to the now widely known Renesis issues.


Okay, let me know what everyone thinks. If there is a clear consensus that Mazda should extend the warranty on the Renesis motor in accordance with the rough outline I provided above, we can take the next step of drafting a professional and polite letter that will be sent to Mazda's corporate office (directed and addressed to the appropriate people within Mazda).

This is the symbol for 'honor' in Japanese:

It may not be a bad idea to include it on any correspondence that we may decide to send to Mazda regarding this issue.

Thank you all for reading this and for any feedback.

Jedi54

iTrader: (7)

Not gonna happen. Those 'other' car companies are extending their warranties because they're losing SO much business to foreign automakers that they need to find a new sales pitch. (referring to domestic car companies)

I think 4 years, 50,000 is reasonable enough.

RotoRocket

iTrader: (1)

Jedi, I'm assuming you think this will be a futile effort on our part?

Jedi54

iTrader: (7)

unfortunately, yes I do believe it will be futile. Even IF you were to succeed, you need to realize that the warranty costs would just be transferred back to the buyers with a higher price tag.

RotoRocket

iTrader: (1)

But I already purchased my 8, new.

How could they shift the costs of extending the warranty back onto me?

mysql

no free ride. mazda already went above and beyond. extending it again will just give then negative press and additional costs. "Is the car really THAT bad that they had to extend the warranty twice?!"

Jedi54

iTrader: (7)

not to you, to future customers. Mazda will most likely not alter existing warraties, if anything they'll change the warranty term on future models (if they even change anything)

expo1

Since Mazda REDUCED the basic warranty of the 8 from 48/50,000 to 36/36,000 Mazda feels exactly the opposite. There is also other examples (mulligangate) of how Mazda feels about us. If there were to do something like that it would make better sense to do it when the 16x comes out.

CyberPitz

Having such a big warranty would make people think "Wow, the engines suck THAT much?"

Really, I think where it's at now is just perfect.

77mjd

I know Mazda will never extend the warranty to 100,000, but personally, I had my engine replaced at 44,000 miles and I now have 55,000 on the car. I sure as hell don't want this car anymore after it hits 60,000. I'm not going to pay for what would be a 3rd engine for this car out of my own pocket should another one fail.

fugg

I don't think people will ever think like this.

No one really KNOWS or understands about how much bad rep has been generated on the 8 UNLESS you really do really go do your research. IE: looking through this forum, Automotive related blog sites, etc. Most people that I talk to personally who own the 8 are totally clueless about this site.

Most of the time I hear, "Oh you drive a rotary engine??? I heard it was really reliable and phast!".

Look at reviews from notable automotive review sites. They all praise the RX8 for it's nimble feet and it's suicide doors, etc. They also bash it on gas mileage.... but thats about it when it comes to bashing. You don't really hear much about it's reliability/recalls when reading the reviews.

The reason why I bring that up is that the "hardcore" Rx8 owners who frequent this site are the only ones who really know/hear about the 8's integrity. (Or lack thereof)

Extending the warranty would be a great plus on Mazda, especially in the public affairs department. I highly doubt they will offer anything up to 100,000 miles though.

New Yorker

Yeah, isn't that funny? That this forum is basically the only place where the 8's integrity is suspect?? Hmm, why do you think that is? Think hard. Think very hard.

DOMINION

I say yes. Why the hell not. I'm all about free bes

Groundrush

+1, but won't happen.

I'd imagine that Mazda has taken a bath on reman'd engines so far, and I highly doubt they'd want to prolong the pain any longer than they have to. The extension they already gave us is the last we'll see.

I was planning on keeping this car until it died. But, with the odd noises that mine now makes, I very well may trade it/sell it once I get on the favorable side of the depreciation/payoff curve. As was previously posted, I'm not interested in shelling out thousands for a new engine sometime after 60k...the fear factor of that alone is enough to make we want to unload it, despite how much I love the car.

kersh4w

iTrader: (3)

yeah i know. its because we have 2 types of people here. the enthusiasts and the people whose engine blew and decided to rant about it online.

if we get 100 people a year saying their engine blew on these forums. we'd think engines are blowing left and right. nevermind comparing that number to the 60,000(?) rx8s sold...

kartweb

Extending the the warrantee is free to the owner and everyone wants something for free. Unfortunately for Mazda that wouldn't be free to them. Its a question of risk and consequences of not taking action. What would you do if you were on Mazda's side of the fence?

I do believe Mazda owes the owners an explanation of root causes that have resulted in the premature problems. In any machine manufacturing business the technology trickles down from engineering. If engineering didn't anticipate the failure numbers then there was either an engineering or quality oversight. So what corrective actions has Mazda taken?

I beilive the people who paid the paychecks of these people deserve to know.

New Yorker

As I said before, Renesis reliability is suspect HERE, on this website, to the point where Renesis unreliability is now an RX8club.com fact. But let's talk about the real world.

Seeking help, explanations or sympathy, owners unlucky enough to have experienced serious engine problems will most certainly find their way to this forum in far greater numbers than the vast majority of RX-8 owners whose cars are fine. That's just human nature. Unfortunately, anyone reading this forum—assuming it's representative of all RX-8 owners—will conclude that the Renesis is unreliable.

That's not to say a small percentage of Renesis engines haven't had problems; they have (particularly the earliest ones; hency Mazda's decision to extend warranty coverage). Engines from VW, Toyota, BMW, and others have had serious problems, too. If you could learn the reliability of all Renesis engines—not just the small percentage you read about here—I think you'd find that the Renesis is, compared to all other engines—about average in reliability.

And, as it's not uncommon for brand new models to have a higher incidence of problems (I never buy a model the year it's introduced), I wouldn't be surprised if properly maintained, unmodified Renesis engines prove to be higher-than-average in reliability if you factor out first-year '04 models.

whitebeau

+1 sorta.

New Yorkers bold 'properly maintained' recommends oil change cycle of 6k miles. With the change/addition in the 09' Renesis of those 2 injectors, I can see suspect seal failure (apex, side seal) if heat dissipation isn't maintained as oil breakdown occurs in the higher miles. Hence my other topic post of the double edge sword of rev high to minimize carbon buildup (oil & fuel detergents not factored) with the risk of seal failure due to heat spots. Then there's low rpm carbon buildup risk, which could shorten the life of your apex seals over a longterm period. Really the only prayer you have is be maticilous with the oil change, This looks to be addressed in the 09.

So i voted no a while ago on this. getting 60k out of your car is fair if you look on the expected consumer life cycle of a vehicle before you the consumer are expected to buy another one. Or to maintain your purchased vehicle as any build issues should have reared it's head during the Warranty period (I think owners that use this as a Sunday car get burned the most, since alot of 05' with 20k are out there).

Now a petition for a recall to accommodate the update the 09's are getting I could see having better leverage, since this couldn't wait till the 16x.

kartweb

I agree with you NY, but unlike most of the other product lines, RX8 owners have a higher awareness of the issues with their cars. For example I have a CX7 and the wife has a Mazda5, yet there is no where near the exchange of information on them.

Mazda will no doubt be looking for repeat business on their unique product.

I'm happy with mine. After it's aged I may by another although it will more likely be a very clean low mileage used one. Or I might just buy a used Corvette or NSX. Too early to really say.

New Yorker

Well yes, to be fair, the updates to the Renesis in the '09 could mean any number of things. It could mean that, yeah, the current Renesis design is problematic and leads to an unacceptable number of engines that need to be replaced.

Or it could mean that Mazda is simply making a reliable engine a bit more reliable. It's certainly not uncommon for auto manufacturers to "plus" design when a model is updated. The fact that there's an injector change does not automatically mean the current Renesis has a serious problem. Mazda might simply be making a good engine better.

Or… perhaps the current Renesis is reliable if—this is an important "if"—if the oil is changed every three or four months or 3K-4K miles, more so than other cars, which may have a greater margin for error if the owner isn't scrupulous about changing the oil regularly. Maybe the new Renesis design increases that margin of error when there's owner neglect.

JeRKy 8 Owner

They already extended the powertrain warranties to 5 years/60,000 miles after the big recall. That's the best we'll ever get.

ken-x8

I think exactly that way. That's what I figured when Hunday started doing their 100K warranty. Unknown brand, made in Korea, cheap. They had to back it up to sell any.

Chrysler was the first to offer really long warranties - 5/50 back in the 1960s or 70s. They had to because their cars were crap, even by the standards of the time.

I found this site after I bought my 8. The "Engines keep blowing" posts didn't frighten me, nor would they have changed my decision. The bad rep posts here are actually tame compared to what I'm used to seeing in product-specific Internet fora.

I do think that buying a rotary has more risk than buying a car with an ordinary engine. It's unique, doesn't have the huge development that boing-boings do, etc. Sports cars in general have more risk because they're lower production. But that should be an accepted risk, in return for not being one of the gray masses.

IMHO, it's kind of incongruous that people who buy sports cars would also have a Consumers Union attitude about reliability and long warranties. What ever happend to hedonism?

Ken

RotoRocket

iTrader: (1)

Just because we purchased a unique car, with a unique motor, doesn't mean we volunteered to be savaged when it comes to resale value.

I seem to recall that the reason Mazda decided to not use FI on the Renesis was to alleviate the concerns over blown motors that had decimated the RX-7's reputation for reliability.

If that's the case, it's just yet another reason (in an already long list, IMO) why Mazda should go the extra mile here and extend the warranties farther.

EdwardsB

when i see the long warranty, the first thing that come to my mind..."guess a lot of their stuff is breaking or is cheap."

I'm fine with our warranty.

musclecarconvrt

At 87k miles, my '04 MT would be getting pretty close to that extended warranty. Would I like more coverage? Sure. Do I trust any Mazda dealership in TN to work on my car? Hell no. My local dealerships couldn't find their butt with both hands. I've had sucky service for both my RX8 and my wifes MS6. I know there are some good ones out there. Just not within a distance that won't require an enitre tank of gas for the round tip. No thanks. I'ld settle for a service department that actually looked for the cause of a problem and test drove my car instead of plugging a computer to tell me what I aldready know. Worthless service = worthless warranty.

I'll fix mine myself if/when it breaks down.