So i found this old thread....
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Posts: n/a
So i found this old thread....
Here is an old thread from this site in 2002 i found very interesting. I dont know if this guy is still a member because i dont come here as much as some of you other fellas. But have a read. I think this guy hit it right on the head as far as his prediction goes. This post was pre-release of the RX8
Is it just me, or was he totally right on the money with the sales prediction. This car needs more power period. Every month i go in and look at say nadaguides, or KBB and i see my car's value drop by the 500-1000's at a time. I bought it almost 2 years ago to the day for 28k, and it is only worth 16k trade in now in excellent condition with 26k miles. Is this due to the fact that people are trading them in for something a bit faster and hurting the RX8 market? I went to the dealer the other day and they were telling me about how they cant get "rid" of their RX8's. I love the RX-8 but for a car that looks this beautiful and is this unique, this is trully a shame.
turboren
03-02-2002, 07:32 AM
The problem with the RENESIS, like that of the S2000, is a lack of torque. Sure, a sky-high redline is fun, but are most people going to buy a "family" car that you have to drive like you're mad at, just to get around? I think not. Granted, it purports to be a sports car, but in reality, it probably will not reach its intended mark without the addition of some torque. At least Honda doesn't pretend their car is something it isn't.
Proof? Go drive an S2000, or better yet, try driving a 7 that's got a bridge-ported or PP motor. Not too fun for daily driving, especially in stop-and-go traffic. Torque helps get the car moving, and the heavier the car (remember, passengers and luggage add weight, too), the more torque it needs to be driveable.
There are many ways you can build torque, but the easiest and most effective is to increase displacement. We really can't be helped in that department without adding more rotors to the engine. Given a limited displacement, the next best way to build big torque is to add something to increase the engine's compression, whether static or dynamic. Turbos are especially useful in this area because they are more or less an on-demand torque (and horsepower) builder. This is one of the reasons the TII's and FD's are as streetable as they are, for being so powerful.
I think it would be folly to introduce a family-type vehicle and not give you a product with enough torque to make driving it enjoyable. I hope I'm wrong on this point. Don't misunderstand me, I like the RX-8 and hope it sells well, mainly so that we can get another 7 here. I love rotaries. I just don't think that Mazda is going to sell as many of these as they think they are, without some type of increased useable power.
Think of it this way, would you rather drive a Miata or a vert 7? Which is honestly the more fun-to-drive car in stock form? Most would say the Miata, emotional input aside. Why? Among other points, it has an appropriate amount of useable power for its size. Stock vert 7's feel bulky and underpowered by comparison. I think this is how many potential buyers will view the RX-8.
So, what's my point? Bring on the turbo. Just one is fine, but if two, something has to be done to make the sequencer reliable. Sad to say, but I think Mazda needs to take some lessons from Toyota.
Ren
03-02-2002, 07:32 AM
The problem with the RENESIS, like that of the S2000, is a lack of torque. Sure, a sky-high redline is fun, but are most people going to buy a "family" car that you have to drive like you're mad at, just to get around? I think not. Granted, it purports to be a sports car, but in reality, it probably will not reach its intended mark without the addition of some torque. At least Honda doesn't pretend their car is something it isn't.
Proof? Go drive an S2000, or better yet, try driving a 7 that's got a bridge-ported or PP motor. Not too fun for daily driving, especially in stop-and-go traffic. Torque helps get the car moving, and the heavier the car (remember, passengers and luggage add weight, too), the more torque it needs to be driveable.
There are many ways you can build torque, but the easiest and most effective is to increase displacement. We really can't be helped in that department without adding more rotors to the engine. Given a limited displacement, the next best way to build big torque is to add something to increase the engine's compression, whether static or dynamic. Turbos are especially useful in this area because they are more or less an on-demand torque (and horsepower) builder. This is one of the reasons the TII's and FD's are as streetable as they are, for being so powerful.
I think it would be folly to introduce a family-type vehicle and not give you a product with enough torque to make driving it enjoyable. I hope I'm wrong on this point. Don't misunderstand me, I like the RX-8 and hope it sells well, mainly so that we can get another 7 here. I love rotaries. I just don't think that Mazda is going to sell as many of these as they think they are, without some type of increased useable power.
Think of it this way, would you rather drive a Miata or a vert 7? Which is honestly the more fun-to-drive car in stock form? Most would say the Miata, emotional input aside. Why? Among other points, it has an appropriate amount of useable power for its size. Stock vert 7's feel bulky and underpowered by comparison. I think this is how many potential buyers will view the RX-8.
So, what's my point? Bring on the turbo. Just one is fine, but if two, something has to be done to make the sequencer reliable. Sad to say, but I think Mazda needs to take some lessons from Toyota.
Ren
Goat rider
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 587
Likes: 0
It cause they made so many.
Cars aren't an investment unless they are rare or special in some way. I see plenty of people w/o a passion for cars driving the RX8. That's got to tell you something.
Also gas prices effect sales alot now unlike in the past.
Cars aren't an investment unless they are rare or special in some way. I see plenty of people w/o a passion for cars driving the RX8. That's got to tell you something.
Also gas prices effect sales alot now unlike in the past.
Last edited by Trekk; Apr 19, 2007 at 02:04 PM.
While I agree that the car sales have been hurt by the relative non-torque of the car at low rpms, I'm disinclined to agree that a turbo system would make the car more successful. A factor turbo system is going to be a ground up application that involves a lot more components than the turbo and some piping. There would be intake changes, combustion chamber changes, possibly material changes on some components. Then, the car would need to be retuned to meet emissions while probably losing yet more mpg. Then, you tack on 5-8k to the car and have a 40k, 300 hp, 4 door, market bomb. What separates the 8 from the Z and the S2000, the Evos and the STi's, is the ride quality and quasipracticality. The style and the feel. More HP won't help any of those. You MIGHT be able to nibble away at the mustang/Z crowds a little, but at the new price tag, you'd lose a lot of buyers. Frankly, I don't think the 8 is a real "American" kind of car. It is very unusual and I assume Mazda had to have known that it would not be a top selling automobile. I would think their only goal would be for the car to pay for it's own development and give them a reputable flagship sports car looker. The miata is often called a roadster instead of sports car. The MS6 is a 4 door sedan. The MS3 is a hatch. The Rx-8 fits in the line-up.
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Well no one ever said a car was an investment. Almost no one has "equity" on a car unless it is a classic or you paid cash outright. But this car's value drops like no other. I have loved the 8 since i heard about it in 2002, so i am sad to see some of the reviews that people give them based on their experience. I for one have had absolutely 0 problems with my 8 and it is a 2005.
doin' the bull dance
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,174
Likes: 2
From: Quahog, RI
Sales prediction may be on target, but the interchangable use of torque & HP is silly. And I don't find that the low torque makes for a vehicle that is "Not too fun for daily driving, especially in stop-and-go traffic" since the 8 pulls itself in traffic w/o any "work" on my part. Traffic sucks no matter how you slice it, but this car is easier than any I've owned when it comes to navigating busy roads.
The salesman was looking at your 8 and feeding you a line so they have an excuse to pay you less on your potential trade.
If you look at retail you will see that the dealership would make about 6,000 on your trade once they sell it.
Add a turbo and you will change your mind about truly a shame.
If you look at retail you will see that the dealership would make about 6,000 on your trade once they sell it.
Add a turbo and you will change your mind about truly a shame.
I did not buy for resale values, because I will keep this car forever. (It's too much fun to drive). The lack of torque is probably best handled for an NA setup, by dropping in the lightened flywheel 
and getting the Feed 4.77's (which I don't have but want), and then go for a ride.
and getting the Feed 4.77's (which I don't have but want), and then go for a ride.
Everybody has their own *cup of tea*
some like sweet, some like bitter, some like no taste at all, etc
I think Rx8 is doing pretty well overseas, it fail in the North America market because .... HP is how they sell cars in the NA Market .... thats how most NA market people judge if a car is *fast* .....
some like sweet, some like bitter, some like no taste at all, etc
I think Rx8 is doing pretty well overseas, it fail in the North America market because .... HP is how they sell cars in the NA Market .... thats how most NA market people judge if a car is *fast* .....
Vroom
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 169
Likes: 0
From: Ann Arbor, Michigan
Originally Posted by nycgps
I think Rx8 is doing pretty well overseas, it fail in the North America market because .... HP is how they sell cars in the NA Market .... thats how most NA market people judge if a car is *fast* .....
Oh, and I think the RX-8 does pretty nice in overseas markets due to taxes. From what I hear, a lot of countries base their auto taxes on engine displacement. 230 HP packed into 1.3 litres is an unbeatable value deal when you're talking about upwards of 50% of the car's price being pure taxes.
doin' the bull dance
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,174
Likes: 2
From: Quahog, RI
I suppose that's all in the interpretation. The 8 hit 100k faster, but then what? I'm willing to admit my ignorance on the actual sales #s, but Miata sales have since crushed 8 sales, no? Damn you Abbid, now I have to go do research . . .
Iirc, from Charlie's recent post on Mazdas #s, the 8 was awful this year. Miata did fairly well. So maybe that quick 100k was rotary lovers, and once they got the 8 who's left?
Iirc, from Charlie's recent post on Mazdas #s, the 8 was awful this year. Miata did fairly well. So maybe that quick 100k was rotary lovers, and once they got the 8 who's left?
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Originally Posted by Trekk
The Miata also is sporting a new body, the RX8 isnt.
Its just like how the base model mustangs are almost always a female hehe
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