MariesRX8

I can kinda relate. I'm not bored with my 8, but after 7+ years I do sometimes wish I could go through the excitement and fun of "getting a new car" again.

But I keep looking and researching and test driving, and I can't find anything that doesn't feel like a letdown. Sure, I know there are faster and/or more luxurious cars, but nothing has that magical feeling the 8 gives. Someone mentioned it seeming spiritual somehow, and it truly does, as if it's an alive and aware being participating in the whole driving experience with you... rather than being a "machine" at your command.

I never intended to buy an RX-8 at all, I was all set to buy a Mazda3 until I drove an RX-8 on a whim... and that sense of magic, of it truly being something special in way we all struggle to put into words caught me and still hasn't let go.

When people say this car is an "addiction," I don't laugh... it truly is

Rotary-RX8

iTrader: (1)

Haha thanks for all the advice guys. I personally think that with all your advices that if i were to sell the 8 that i would regret it. Which is what im trying to avoid obviously, i would like be happy with the decision i make. So i guess for now im keeping the 8 permantly and saving up for my new ride :P.

blackenedwings

As an owner of two RX-8s, including a turbocharged Shinka making 300+ rwhp, and now Evo owner... let me chip in my 2c. The RX-8 is a unique, attractive, and fun car. It autocrosses well, looks pretty, and is a fun backroad cruiser.

Do NOT turbocharge your RX-8. I lost every ounce of fun in my car when I tried making my RX-8 something it wasn't. Unless you enjoy pouring money endlessly into a hole and driving around watching your gauges... don't do it. I never blew a motor while turbocharged, but I've seen 3 turbo RX-8s blow motors in front of me at meets and the constant worry that it would happen to me sucked the fun out of the car. When I pulled the turbo/meth off the car it got to be more fun again... I could wring the motor out to redline and there were far fewer components to go wrong. It's still a (relatively) heavy, low power cruiser.

You need to pick the car that is right for what you want... I wanted a high powered car that could be competitive on a race track. The RX-8 without absolutely ludicrous money is not capable of doing that. Trying to make it something it wasn't cost me tens of thousands of dollars. If I had invested the money into a car that came from the factory with the performance I wanted I would have saved myself a lot of heartache and money.

I don't regret the work I put into my car, or owning it...because it got me back into loving cars and loving driving. At the end of the day however, I love my Evo more than I loved my RX-8 and it fits what I want out of a car better. Just be honest with yourself and don't try to ram a square peg into a round hole making the car something it isn't.

It isn't about street racing, or "take them to the corners", or any of the other retarded crap the fanbois on this forum post... its about being honest with what you want out of a car and if the RX-8 provides that to you. There is no "one best" car out there... just cars that meet individual tastes. Best of luck to ya OP!

RX8Soldier

iTrader: (24)

^great response!

IronTanuki

As the owner of an STi (stock) and a turbocharged RX-8 I couldn't disagree more.

The RX-8 stock was pretty fun but turbocharged it is pretty close to being my dream car which it comes closer to with each mod that goes in. Love the sound, love the handling, love the power, love the looks, love the 4 usable seats, what's not to love? I don't drive competitively and probably never will (at least with this car) so I don't care how it sizes up against whatever class it would fall into. I'll get it out to the track one of these days for some HPDE and track days but I'm not trying to build a race car so I am free to modify it to my whims rather than to a rulebook.

As far as an enjoyable street car I find it to be orders of magnitude more fun turbo than NA. To qualify that, I don't drive like a maniac but there are plenty of occasions to open it up a bit in a responsible way. Once a car is past a certain level that ceases to be the case. In my opinion a 300-350RWHP RX-8 is right at that limit, though that is entirely subjective.

I don't run methanol and I don't really worry about the car outside of glancing at the oil temp to make sure it is hot enough to start romping on it. I vetted the setup throughly keeping a close eye on the AFRs, coolant temps, boost, etc at various temps, humidities, altitudes, whatever but have not had any issues outside of a boost leak since I got the car back and now don't feel any trepidation when driving or going WOT. I've driven it hard on 40 degree days and 100 degree days. Car has 54k miles on it now and I know the engine will die some day but for now it starts up instantly hot or cold even with my puny battery, idles smooth, runs great, and brings a huge smile to my face every time I drive it.

Could have I have put all the money from this project into my STi and had it be faster in a straight line? There is no doubt. However there is a limit to the amount of usable power you can have on a car that is primarily a street car. Also, the STi rides and feels like a hooked up sedan (which it is) vs the RX-8 which feels like a pure sports car. My STi remains my stock daily driver because that is what I feel it's suited to as a beefed up family sedan. YMMV obviously

blackenedwings

While I definitely appreciate another perspective... I would say your experience is not typical. I'm curious what setup you run (turbo/ECU) and how many miles you have done so.

I would also disagree with two comments:

There is a common myth perpetuated in the RX-8 community that the RX-8 is the best handling car in the world, and the only choice is between cars than can handle well or have power "in a straight line". That is completely false. There are a lot of cars which handle as well or better and have considerable power in a straight line and otherwise. The STi (I'm not sure what chassis you have) can be a monster in the corners if properly set up. It does understeer like a pig stock, but some suspension mods can work wonders on that car. The shop that does the work on my Evo is predominantly a Subaru shop, so I've seen a lot of badass modified STi's that would run circles around my RX-8 with less invested.

That is not to say the STi is "better"... obviously for you the car you want for your needs is better suited to an aftermarket turboed RX-8. For me, it certainly wasn't the case.

I've found the limit is extremely different depending on who you ask and what you are accustomed to. The fact is, people get adjusted to the power level they have and it doesn't seem fast any more. When I broke 400 awhp I was convinced I would never want more... but it seems slow to me now and I'm working on some changes to break 500 whp. I have friends on the EvoM forums that have 700+ awhp street cars that seem slow to them now. Technically for a car to reach the posted speed limits you only need around 90-100 bhp. For enthusiasts the ideal power level varies depending on the chassis, available grip, driving style etc.

Then again, I'm kind of a power junkie, so I would probably take a million horsepower car if I could get it.

IronTanuki

I have a MM GT3071R GReddy kit with an AP tuned by MM on a dyno day with one follow up through his MMCCS. It's true the car is a relative turbo newb with only 4k turbo miles and I can make no claim of longevity but I made sure to do extensive research based on the wealth of information on this forum as to what I feel are the proper supporting mods. It will die when it dies and I'll build a new engine with the works to replace it.

I never made this claim. I am well aware of the performance potential of an STi and how it can be made to handle well. The point you were making is "don't go turbo" which only addresses the power aspect of the RX-8. All I was saying I could make my STi faster (in a straight line) for cheaper but that was never even a consideration for me. Your general theme was don't try to make a car something it is not but how is turbocharging a rotary engine trying to fit a square peg in a round hole? The car responds to it and it gives a dramatic difference in the character of the car for the better. The reduced longevity is the price you pay but honestly how long do 500+ hp Evos last and how is it any different since the car comes with far less power from the factory than that? Not to mention to wring that amount of power out of a 2 liter engine you have to throw on a huge turbo. A lot of people take joy in molding a vehicle into their ideal vision of it and don't base it on some metrics of "how can I maximize performance for the dollar". I'm not diminishing your car, I think Evos are cool, but I'm just not understanding how you can build one up to high levels and see it as anything different than doing the same to an RX-8 regardless of the cost to do so. Both are $30k-ish Japanese performance cars which are scoffed at by people with "real" sports cars.

The STi (mine is a 2005) also weighs in at almost 3400lbs so it is a porker and I'm not about to start stripping/gutting cars I run on the street. Outside all that I prefer RWD plain and simple. I also prefer rotary engines to reciprocal ones. I like the boxer rumble but as an engineer the rotary's elegance appeals to me far more than the Rube Goldburg contraptions that are piston based engines. I also love the sound, smoothness, turbo spooling capabilities (even if it is less pronounced on a side port), uniqueness, and underdog tenacity Mazda has for continuing on with an engine the rest of the world abandoned in the 60s.


I agree but the answer for that, for me at least is to drive my STi and my wife's Forester XT more often if I start getting accustomed to the power of the RX-8. Endlessly chasing power, especially on a 4 cyl and ending up with a ridiculously peaky powerband has no appeal to me.

In the end it is like you said, different strokes for different folks but to me owning a turbo rotary car that kicks me back in my seat and delivers a great driving experience is all I am looking for. I don't need to have 500+ rwhp to enjoy the car but I did need to have more than the sub 200rwhp it came with.

RX8sold4EVO

You can have the great handling +horsepower/torque...it is possible all in one car as I have recently discovered with my new purchase this summer. I used to think the RX8 was the "be all end all" in the handling department, but it isnt. Just look around, test drive and be open minded and willing to broaden your horizons to cars you may have previously dismissed. I did and boy was I pleasantly surprised.

Roaddemon

if you are bragging EVO, I think it's too much of a one purpose car attractive to young street racers. I like refined sportcars. maybe my age has something to do with that.

Rotary-RX8

iTrader: (1)

Exactly what im looking for !! A car that handles great with lots of power. A car i can track on the weekends but also have fun at the drag strip while sitll being my daily driver !! The 8 is great in the handling department no questions with decent power. Its the power that i think it lacks.

I have to keep the 8 right now since my other options are way to expensive. lol

Roaddemon

I personally would not drive a small car unless it's a real sports car. I like the low slung laid back all natural feel of a sportscar. The 8 quickly revs smooth to red line all the way down the road. closest thing to flying a foot off the ground. It's geometry is natural and close to perfect. No add ons necessary to make it more than it is. That's why engineers love the 8. They know what it is. If torque and power were the issue, hello Dodge challenger.

wrightcomputing

iTrader: (5)

Yeah, you were saved by the club!!!

blackenedwings

I had a MM GT3071R with AP tuned by him on a dyno and street tuned as well. I did an unbelievable amount of research because I believed if it was done "right" that I wouldn't have anything to worry about. I even paid a "reputable" shop to do a bunch of the install work so I could trust that it didn't have any installation problems. No offense, but with only 4k miles on the car... you probably aren't the best person to talk about the relative merits of the car when turbocharged.

People like myself, mysql, IamDANoMite, CarbonRX8 and dozens of others who have seen catastrophic failures... sometimes multiple times in a row might have a better long term picture of the benefits and disadvantages.

The RX-8 motor is much higher compression than previous rotary motors that came turbocharged, it also suffers from the side ports which cause extreme heat buildup on the exhaust ports resulting in failed side seals. The nature of a rotary motor breathes extremely well with a turbo despite its legendary fragility, but the Renesis in particular was not designed with it in mind.


Clearly you don't know much about Evo's hehe. LOTS of people run 400-500+ all wheel horsepower on the stock block for years even in race conditions. Some of them are in the 150,000 mile range or higher. One notable forum member has a 250,000 mile Evo still going strong. (his is not 500+ whp)


Again... false. People who haven't experienced it don't have a frame of reference. I'm running a stock block with only cams/head studs and a stock frame turbo making 400+ whp on pump gas with no loss in spool from the stock setup. I am not driving around a laggy huge turbo. Advances in turbo technology like billet compressor wheels, gamma-Ti turbine wheels, twinscroll manifolds, variable valve timing all can result in fast response even from a 2.0L motor.

Because frankly one of the cars is legendary for performance and competitive at the highest levels of motorsport. Nobody, and I mean nobody "scoffs" at my Evo on track. Also building one up to high levels is about a billion times easier than doing the same to an RX-8. There are people who have built insane RX-8s... and I certainly gave thought to a 3-rotor swap in my Shinka. In the end I didn't have a shop that I trusted for the work, couldn't wait over a year for it to be done, and frankly couldn't justify the $50,000+ cost for the benefit.


3400lbs isn't exactly a porker... a 3049lb car with 159 torque is closer to bacon imo. I definitely appreciate the desire most people have to not gut their street cars. I fully admit, I'm crazy. I love driving around in a gutted caged race car.

I can certainly understand the love of RWD, rotary engines, and the love of the underdog... its exactly the point I was trying to make originally. Cars are all about the individual. Invest and drive what you love and enjoy. I love modified examples of literally every car be it a clean Civic hatch, a Ferrari Challenge car, or a well modified RX-8. Believe it or not I wasn't at all trying to bash RX-8s or be a dick on the RX-8 forum. I honestly wish I had talked to someone who had experienced what I went through before I turbocharged my RX-8. It would have saved me a lot of grief.

Yeah, the main way I keep my "power creep" from getting to me is driving around in my Geo Prism beater car. It's hard to stay unimpressed with turbo power when you have been scooting around in a 95 bhp shitmobile.

For what its worth it sounds like you have a nice setup, and I hope it treats you well and lasts for a long time to come.

wrightcomputing

iTrader: (5)

The Rx8 does not have a lot of torque but it has a great torque curve that is perfect for racing I drove a heavily modified 350Z a couple of weeks ago it had 350+ WHP and my stock Rx8 was faster around the track because I could not get enough traction in the 350Z. Torque is only good if you can make the tires stick.

IronTanuki

It's true everyone has a plan until their engine blows up but I think a lot of the failures could have been prevented possibly. My whole point in responding, where I am normally content just lurking, is I wanted to give another perspective to "don't turbocharge your car or you will regret it for sure!" so people like OP would not just write the task off as impossible or not worth it. You yourself state you never suffered any blown engines but reverted to NA based on fears, maybe this has to do with your level of preparedness? There will always be the random fluke blown engines which are admittedly more common in this community than other cars but I believe if you do your research, identify the risks and points of failure of previous member's builds and then mitigate those risks through research and planning there is no reason you can't have a fun turbocharged RX-8 which can last you many years. Members like Brettus have gotten tens of thousands of miles at 300+RWHP.

Just a quick off the top of my head list of common risks I've seen and mitigation strategies based on research from this forum:

• Failure due to bad tune: Run an AP tuned by MM
• Random bad tank of gas: Try to fill up at a reliable station, run conservative tune, turn down the boost if using gas from some random station in the boonies
• Side seal warping and getting caught on side port: Don't run methanol which will partially combust in the exhaust manifold and cause excessive heating of the exhaust ports
• Too much boost on stock GReddy: Upgrade the turbo to something more suited to the Renesis
• Localized boiling of coolant causing warping: Run Evans NPG-R
• Excessive engine bay heat: Ceramic coat the exhaust manifold, well thought out heat shielding, hard coolant lines and relocate coolant reservoir on top mounts setups
• General cooling concerns: Use a Mazmart waterpump and thermostat, BHR radiator. Seal off holes around radiator to divert all air through it. Run a V-Mount setup for the track rather than a FMIC. Don't block the entire radiator with a massive FMIC.
• Misfire under boost at high RPM: Run BHR ignition and FD leading plugs
• Wait until the oil is warmed up before going above 4k or into boost if you can help it
• Failure due to boost creep: Be aware about temp and humidity changes eye on the boost if in doubt
• Lubrication and wear: Run higher oil pressure, premix to compensate for the lack of center oil injectors, run at least 40 weight oil, run a SOHN adapter (I'll admit I haven't done this one yet).
• Engine finally blows or loses compression: Don't turbocharge your DD unless you have a backup vehicle. Have money for a spare engine or better yet build one for when the day comes so you have less down time

Does that make this engine temperamental and delicate? Of coarse but as long as you go into your project aware of this I don't see the problem. The payoff is well worth it. For a dedicated or heavily tracked car I wouldn't choose a turbo RX-8 unless you have the cash and patience for regular rebuilds.

I'll concede any points on modern EVO tuning, I haven't really followed the car closely since the EVO VI since I personally find the later iterations pretty ugly. That said, it sounds like your car is a beast and driving it is a blast. I'd personally have major reservations about driving a caged car on the street without a helmet but I'm sure you have considered that. I also respect any well done project car of any kind but as this is the RX-8 forum of coarse I am going to extol the virtues of the RX-8 and specifically turbo RX-8s since I enjoy mine so much.

Thanks Looks like you are in MD, maybe I can make it up there for a meet up one day.

blackenedwings

Yeah, I have a custom 6-point chromoly cage with no halo bars. The only bars forward of the drivers seat are the door bars and I've left mounting points on the front to bring hoops forward when I take the car off the street. I wasn't too keen on popping my head like a grape while driving around with no helmet.

Yeah man, you should come out to some of the meets in the area, I tend to go to more generic meets rather than any marque specific meet because I love project cars of any kind too. I would love to see your build. You seem like a really cool dude, I definitely appreciate your input to the thread. It's rare enough that people around here use logic and can articulate their feelings without degenerating into mudslinging.

Alright, I'm off to pick up my baby... she got flooded in the mega tropical storm that came by. Fortunately I don't have an interior anyway.