RX8s arent doing well, Bye bye new generation RX-7s :(
 

I been doing a lot of reading and research and based on numbers I strongly believe we can say bye bye to a new generation RX-7.

Even though mazda is doing great selling RX-8s, just as many as they sell in numbers, similar numbers are coming back for repairs due to transmition or engine failures.

Im not really sure what to say or think, even though i strongly think the RX-8 is a great vehicle, if the numbers in claims keep raising due to engine or tranny failures, im pretty sure mazda/ford can say bye bye to bringing in a new generation RX-7.

Insurance claims to replace broken RX-8s is a similar situation as when the third generation RX-7. Even though RX-7 were being sold for $42.000 - $55.000 and a good chunk of money came in, still wasnt enough to cover the money being paid out in repairs and insurance claims to repaid broken RX-7s.

Similar thing is happening with RX-8s. Today, they sell them anywhere from $28.000-$35.000, If we balance that with the amount of FE's taken for repairs with the rate and numbers increasing, i dont think MAZDA will end up making enough money to justify a new RX-7.

These are just plain especulations on my end, i dont know. What you guys think of this??

I think you're wrong, just plain wrong. I don't have any real data to back this up, but I just think you're wrong.

I believe your comments are quite premature. How many RX-8's have been sold? How many documented engine & tranny failures do we know of?

At worst, it is too early in the sales cycle to tell if these failures are isolated, or part of a bigger problem.

I thought that I read in the RX-8 book that even though the last RX-7 had problems Mazda still made a profit on the car over its life. It just didn't sell in high enough numbers to make the car worth the effort and at the time it made more sense to put that effort into the high volume models to get the accounts out of the red.

That is actually not true, The 3d gen rx-7 almost bankrupted MAZDA, That is the main reason why FORD bought mazda, otherwise MAZDA would still own MAZDA USA.

As far as number or data Im just guessing and i might be wrong, im just commenting based on how many cars ive been seing in this forum and how many cars have been taken back in the 2 locals mazda dealers alone.

Is too early to tell, you guys are right, yet if the pattern increases or even stays at the same rate, We might just have to face the same truth.

I hate to say that because i really want a new RX-7 :(

Honest, RX7FD3, I don't have a problem with you personally - I'd be making the same posts challenging anyone else who came on here spouting such nonsense (and repeatedly doing it!).

That said - as far as Mazda is concerned, the RX-8 is a huge success. Their manufacturing facility is running flat out at full capacity, and they are still back-ordered for months in Europe (where deliveries are only now starting) and elsewhere.

What research and numbers? There have been plenty of numbers posted here (you always seem to forget that this site has existed for over a year, long before you showed up last week) that indicate that sales are steady, and there really aren't that many problems. I don't know how you can conclude from a few people here getting engine replacements (out of the 10,000 or so RX-8s delivered already) that this is a model-killing problem.

Regards,
Gordon

I think it's all going to end very badly for Mazda and the Rotary. This is pure speculation, and I hope it's not the case. I'd love to see a new RX-7, but at this point I wonder if the RX-8 is even going to make it longer than the FD, hopefully the engine thing ends up being a fluke or easily fixed. If it's not a flaw with the design then I think the RX-8 will be successful for the most part, since sales seem to be picking up a bit.

Ike

I've heard so much talk on this forum lately about "all these problems" the RX-8 is having. Keep in mind that this forum is dedicated solely for the purpose of discussing the RX-8. Human nature dictates that people will discuss negative issues much faster than they will positive issues. Just because there are isolated problems doesn't mean the RX-8 is a bad vehicle. If you visit any other car enthusiast forum whether it is the 350z forum or BMW forum you will find problems. Does that mean that those cars are bad? Not at all. Every make and model has its own issues. The RX-8 is no exception. Only time will determine the success/failure of a vehicle. So please...no more of this doom and gloom talk about how the RX-8 is a failure. Talk to us in 5 years.

Now back to our regularly scheduled programming....:D

Problem free

Re: RX8s arent doing well, Bye bye new generation RX-7s :(
 

Oh Bullshit.

I'd love to hear where you got your numbers from. Exactly how may RX-8s have been sold worldwide to date? How many of them have come back for failed engines or transmissions?

Reading bad comments on the internet does not make the case, I want hard data to look at. Otherwise I think you're just being fatalistic.

You're JUST GUESSING based on WHAT YOU READ ON THIS FORUM??? Oh jeez.

Come ONE folks, this is a BRAND NEW model of car, with a BRAND NEW engine design. You expect it to be 100% perfect from the instant it is released? There is no freakin way! Criminy!

If you really want to predict doom and gloom for the car, FINE, either DON'T BUY IT or SELL IT BACK if you already have. Just STOP trying to bring all of the rest of us, who love the HELL out of this car, down with you!!!


I'm sorry, this is not personal at RX7FD3 or Ike WRX, I'm just getting tired of people who consistantly bash the car.

Agreed, lets close the thread and open it again in 5 years :p I do however think the engine issue is more than just first year problems that most cars experience. Besides we're just going to get a bunch of responses from RX-8 owners that have had their car a whopping 5k miles and haven't had any problems...

Re: RX8s arent doing well, Bye bye new generation RX-7s :(
 

What I think is this: you don't post any references to any information that forms the basis of your speculations (which are confusingly stated in factual form).

just as many as they sell in numbers, similar numbers are coming back for repairs due to transmition or engine failures.

This sounds ridiculous... where are you getting this info from?

Anyone should know that engine failures reported on this forum are a very poor representation of how good or bad the RX8 rollout has been thus far.

Like I have said in other posts when people get all worked up over posts explaining someones bad experiences..........

Before message boards were around, there would be no way of knowing that a guy in Bangor Maine had an engine failure or a bad tranny showed up in Australia. It is the very nature of this format that shows "random" data. It is by no means scientific, and should not be interpreted as a problem in manufacturing. I would venture to guess that the RX8 is considered a success even in a quality control standpoint.

It would never occur to me to make a post that basically said that the RX8 has been plagued with issues in its short life as a production vehicle. First of all.....a message board is RX7FD's source of data......enough said on that.

Those who are here to be constructive, learn and share knowlege that they know to be accurate, are an asset to the forum. Those few who want to be "the messenger" of information, but really know very little about the very car this forum is supposed to be about, are bringing the level of quality down for everyone.

Where is your data?

also, i dont think the rx8 is FE. isnt it SE?

Gee, i didnt mean to piss anyone off. I didnt state facts, i clearly said "it seems" and i said is my own opinion and i also said that this is solely based on the number of RX-8s going bad on the forum.

Calm down you guys, damn. Rotary owners have been known for being nice and not stock up or aggresive towards outsiders. I keep getting that feeling in this forum.

Anyways going back to the topic. It was just especulations on my end and i said that more than once so i wouldnt get this type of verbal assalt from forum members.

I really like the RX-8 and I am an RX-7 owner who will be buying an RX-8 as well. No reason to get nasty with me.

I agree, is too early in the game to come up with numbers or especulations, 4-5 years down the road it would be fair thing to look at, The purpose of this thread is to seek for opinion on this matter or may be even feedback of those whose cars have gone down.

Opinion is appreciated. Thank you or are we all here to see who answers threads in the most nastiest way possible.?

RX7FD3, your heading is deceptive...

It implied that you had actual information, not just speculation. For those like me, that don't always read the posts, please change it to something more accurate like, "Why I think the RX8s arent doing well and why there will be no new generation RX-7s :("

My RX-8 is friggin' perfect. An ECU reflash is the only thing I would change. Reliability isn't an issue with my particular car.

One case of bad news is worth 1000 cases of good news. (Nobody complains when there isn't anything wrong)

IkeWRX and SkylineManiac ought to be brothers. They make little compliments about the RX-8 to avoid getting totally flamed while throwing in unsupported, negative comments about the RX-8 in what seems like some attempt to convince us our cars are crap.

That was me that posted the above message, not RaidenSky

Backorder in Europe? LOL? That must be a joke?

Who in Europe would buy a 18L/100km! They would have to price the RX8 at $5,000 Euro for anyone to buy it.

This summer I went to Europe, and half of what I saw is either diesel or economic gas.

VW = All Diesels.
Audi = A3 Diesel, A4 Diesel, Avant Diesels...
Benz = Every Class has diesel except CL/SL/SLK I think
Toyota = Amazing diesel engines ect...

I was staying at a Hotel and Germany this summer, was talking to the owner about cars and he was complaining about his Passat TDI only got 5.8L/100km. The RX8 is 18L/100km.

If it sells in Europe, I don't know what to say.

People who have money in Europe just buy M3, M5, 5 Series, CLK, CL, A6, A8.

There is no market for the RX8.

very well put. rxtreme

read the thread about no problem owners with high mileage. I say sham or non-rotary enthusiast.

The other car forums are gonna use this. Oh well...

An amazingly big headed opinion!!!

Do you have any other sweeping statements to make, or did that one exhaust you?

I can't believe I'm plunging into this, but...
So what about all those BMW 316's, 318's, 320's, 325's, and 330's
(not to mention all the entry level Mercedes-C and E class) I saw flying all over the autobahn/autostrasse in Germany, Italy, France, and everything in between while I was over there for 3 years? Oh, yeah, and I'm talking about those cars as GAS powered, not diesel. Not to mention a number of Opel's, Alpha Romeo's, and of course, the VW's that will compete in both price and gas mileage with the RX-8. These are popular cars in Europe and I'm sure the RX-8 will be popular, too, despite the fact that Europe's gas prices are insane.

There are many little 3 cylinder gas and 4-6 cyl. diesels over there, but there are just as many 4-6 cyl performance oriented engines/cars that blow thru gas just as much as the RX-8, if not more.
Say you're wrong! There is no doubt in my mind the RX-8 will be competitive.

I think people are getting the impression that you're here to pee in everyone's cornflakes. Maybe that's not your intent but just the way you make your points. I'm also concerned about some of the reliability issues reported but I'm not ready to declare Mazda dead. I just backed that up with an order. We'll see how it goes. I know you are just speculating but your posts don't seem to make a distinction between your gut feeling and objective evidence. The very title of your post makes a statement that you don't back up or even necessarily support with your own view. I think you're not getting your questions across and they're coming off more like statements. As far as your issue in this post -- the real question is what is the failure rate and how does it compare with other vehicles.

A thread like this one draws Trolls like Crap draws flies.

Ike, Just like I said before it seems that you exist on this board to discredit Mazda and the RX8 in any way you can.

What is your real motive here???

It'll be ok. There are just some small issues right now, because this car is virtually a completely new design. Granted, the rotary engine isn't new, but it also hadn't been regularly produced for almost a decade. Expect some bugs to be present during the first several months to a year. What else can be expected when the first year buyers are ginea (sp) pigs.

The RX-8 will have the problems resolved, and the RX-7 will be back. Relax.

The saying goes...

"For every one problem encountered, a person will tell 10 friends, and they will tell their friends without giving a benefit of the doubt, when something great occurs, people tell maybe two friends, and their friends don't give a shit so it ends there."

With that said...everyone that's complained about engine failure, granted that's all true, there are a lot more people that have not had any issues. It just seems like a bigger situation than it is because people post when there is something extremely right, or the slightest bit wrong. No one will post when their car gets them from point A to point B without any issues, because that is simply expected.

Maybe you should tell me the same thing Renotse, your whole purpose seems to be to follow me around and make meaningless remarks. At least I have an opinion and don't latch on to others for the sake of fitting in and going along with the flow.


Ask yourselves which is worse, someone that thinks there is a problem with the renesis engine, or someone that chooses to ignore the problems that have been popping up and claim the RX-8 is the greatest car they have ever owned after having had it for 1500 miles. Ask Canzoomer and Ito how great they thought their cars were before their engines went.

This is like the whole HP thing all over again. Everyone disputed the dynos and said the car is making 247 HP, I and others were called trolls repeatedly for standing by the feeling that the RX-8 didn't make 247hp. Do you think Mazda would have done a damn thing if there wasn't such a fuss made about the dyno's and other evidence by the non blinded RX-8 owners as well as the people that didn't even own the car? I have no motive to be here other than the fact that I like cars and I'm curious to see what's going on with the 8. This is a thread for where I stated my opinion which I clearly stated was speculation. Don't like what I have to say, oh well. Well here's what I think now.

1.) The car still isn't making the advertised 238 HP

2.) Mazda is going to have to fess up again

3.) There is a problem with the Renesis, at the very least on the early ones that were produced

4.) Mazda will have to fess up to that sooner or later

5.) Driving a car for 2000, 5000, 8000 miles without problems does NOT means it's reliable and trouble free, and you're about as qualified as I am to speculate on long term reliability.

6.) Mazda screwed up, and the whole car enthusiast community is taking note.

7.) One more big problem or screwup (I.E. the car not really making 238hp or the Renesis being of poor design) and the reprecussions could be far more serious than Mazda having to send out some gift cars and offer free maintenance.

8.) The rotary has proven yet again to be a better theory than it is an application. Tell me exactly what it has over the high input, highly reliable, more environmentally friendly 4 cylinders on the road.

9.) The rotary was great in the FD because it was light and made a lot of power, now it's not so light a car, it doesn't make a lot of power and is about on par in a straight line with a RSX-type S or 1.8T GTi. It handles great and for the people that bought it for that reason and will actually be tracking it and making the most of the handling good for you.


If you want to live in your own dreamworld where the RX-8 is the perfect car and all is well with Mazda and it's brand image be my guest. I however won't do it with the very car that I own and I sure as hell won't do it with a car that I'm interested in but will probably never own.

Ike

The Titanium Gray A/T with a sports package that I want here in California is on back order too. From Santa Maria all the way to Los Angeles, I have yet to locate a dealer that has one available this month for sale. Earliest quote I got was January/February.

The RX-8 is to Europe as those SUV's like the Excursions and H2's are to America. They are impractical for the demograph to own due to fuel consumption and fuel prices, but there are those that don't give a crap about spending the money because they feel that they have more than enough of it.

BTW, what types of cars have you found to be suitable substitutes for the RX-8 Captain? I'm in the market for the 8, but I like to keep an open mind with my options.

for me......I know this is one special car if people that don't own them are among the top posters.

I mean it sais it all when you have 860 posts on a message board for a car that doesnt exsist in your driveway.

Ike, What have you been SMOKIN

Who do you think you are Ralph Nader. I don't think the RX8 is another Corvair. We will get along fine without you.

BYE

Ok...time to start from the top and work it down...

1- What method are people using to measure the car's horsepower? Chassis Dyno are the most common. Problem with that. Not all two dyno's are the same. How would I know? The PERFORMANCE SHOW, www.bottleblownracing.com, I work part time at, has a Superflow Chassis Dyno, perhaps one of the best dyno's available at this point in time. That dyno measures power at the wheels, which is DIFFERENT, from the flywheel horsepower which manufactures use to advertise their cars. Even with the wheel horsepower from that dyno, you compare it with a Dynojet, the numbers will be different, hell, compare two dynojet figures, they'll be different due to calibrations and maintaince upkeep.

2- Fess up for what? Mazda already did something very honorable by changing their figures to their retested figures, offered a crapload of benefits to those that were loyal and stuck with them. Honda hasn't done jack for all of the people that bought their Honda Civic Si's that have a claimed 160 horsies but only put about 130 to the ground. Even at a 12% drivetrain loss, it should be putting about 140 to the ground. Honda hasn't done jack for those that bought the 195 horsepower Integra Type R's that put 140 to the ground when it should be putting about 170 to the ground with a 12% powertrain loss. The list keeps on going, it's not just Honda, it's not just Mazda. Location, equipment, weather all play a big deal in the horsepower figures.

3- So there have been problems with the Rensis produced...ok...what new engines don't encounter an issue here or there during their early production time? They are working very hard to resolve the issues. For heavensakes, the old Pontiac Ferro's were known to have their transmission fall out, but at least Mazda is working on improving their issus.

4- You like repeating yourself to make your list seem longer.

5- My parent's X-5 that they've had for about a year has gone in the shop 3 times in the last four months because of a axle issue. Does that mean it's the car's fault? Nope, it simply means that they had a bad batch of parts. It's a fact of life when everything, EVERYTHING, is mass-produced on CNC machines these days.

6- A lot of businesses screw up, it's whether or not they do anything about it that makes the difference. Mazda is working on it. Why don't you go nag MOSS motors for making crappy superchargers that do not produce anywhere near the horsepower they claim for $2500 dollars. You know, those that leak caster oil.

7- Umm...what was the point of that post? Is that a threat? Scary.

8- It's a lighter and smaller engine externally. It's another means of moving a vehicle.

9- Ummm...ok? There's more to life than just going in a straightline, although that is fun at times too. You live a very dull life if you have so much time to stand on a soap box to complain all day long.

Hate to break it to you...no such thing as the "PERFECT" car. There are also a lot of cars out there that one would like to own, but will never get to, nore even get approved to go on the test drive, why don't you go bitch about those instead now. Bub-bye.

1.) The same argument people made the first time around. I fully understand how a dyno works and all the dynos so far point to a 20% or more powertrain loss in order for the car to really be making 238 HP.

2.) The current figures are still too high, the car is really making in the area of 220 to 230 tops. We're not talking about Honda, we're talking about Mazda. Honda wasn't on shakey ground like Mazda is and probably never will be.

3.) What makes you so sure Mazda is working hard to resolve the issues, according to you and many others there are no issues... So which is it?

4.) Yes

5.) Axle issues and engine issues are a very different thing, plus BMW has never been know for their reliablity. BMW is facing some problems as well that may end up leading to some hard times. Reliability and design issues in particular.

6.) It's just not that simple, what they may end up doing to resolve it is scrap the RX-8 and rotary all together. You like to repeat yourself to make it seem like you have more to say don't you?

7.) Not a threat, simply saying another screw up could mean more financial problems for Mazda and an even more tarnished brand image.

8.) Prove to me it's lighter, because I don't think it really is lighter than most of the 4 cylinders being put in sporty cars today. If it is lighter it sure as hell isn't by much.

9.) My life isn't dull and it doesn't take much time to respond to posts on a message board, especially when I'm doing it while doing other things (Go Steelers!).

I agree there is no perfect car, but perhaps you should direct that to the other 8 owners moreso than me.

Ike

Just ignore these trolls. The more you respond the bigger hard on they get and the more they'll post.

If you ignore them, they'll get bored. Better still put them on you're ignore list. If they ever do find anything worth saying - it'll be in a vacuum.

To me, the biggest frustration is when the entire post of someone on my ignore list is quoted. I wish the application behind this site was smart enough to identify those quoted passages as well :)

Good strategy. I should have thought of it sooner myself since I usually deal with people like him on the Honda boards.

Gee, this thread was started to get imput on owner about the issues of them going back to the dealer to get things fixed. and the amount of these issues va the amount of cars sold.

The RX-8 is a great machine, handling, looks and versatility. Mazda or any car company will have their bugs on new cars, It took them 2 years before they came up witha decent batch of good 95 RX-7s and it took them almost 10 years to come up witha good RX-7 in japan with the RS, and RZ models.

It takes times, which we cant determine right now, is too early in the game. All we know for sure is that if they dont fix their bugs in the following years, it will follow the same destiny as the RX-7 and sales would probably be kept only in japan.

In the other hand, we might be all wrong, and they might get betters and may be it will become a favorite just like the miatas did. Looks at miatas now, they have a MAZDASPEED Miata coming up.

All is left for owners to do is just support the car, the scene, the rotary community, obviously take care of your cars while they are in the break in time period of your engines.

Ive seen owner driver their cars run hard as hell, some even trying to see how fast it goes without even waiting for engines to breakin. All of this comes into count when judging a car vs warranty claims. All other people see is warranty numbers, they dont see how bad users treat their cars.

Lets face. we all get carried away with brand new cars in one way or another, Ive gone through that, we all do. We all drive our cars like we are invincible and nobody cant stop us and somewhat affects why cars are breakin with low miles. Some owners can be responsable for this but im not here to blame or judge. Lets just not get carried away, Same thing happened when EVOS came tothe US. owners thought they were unstopable with their cars, and we all saw that within the first 2 weeks, the amount of trashed cars almost equaled the amount of cars sold.

Jesus Christ~ The RX-8 is a success in Japan, and Mazda is geared toward Japanese consumers. The RX-8 might not have loads of power, but its handling really shines. In the 21st century wnd coming of the muscle sport car era, it's a rare gem. I hardly think the RX-8 is a failure, even thought I think they should sell it cheaper. The attention RX-8 has been getting in Japan has been very good, which is no doubt good news for future RX-7 fans. Mazda has no reason NOT to introduce the RX-7, they got the engine, the platform, the fanaticism~ Mazda also knows damn well that they need a new icon for themselves. FE will be here~ count on it.

Many prospective buyers read this forum. If enough people read Ike's deluded paranoid ramblings they could have a negative effect on the success of the car and therefore impact our resale value.

I am a RX8 owner and have a vested interest in the car, does Ike? Good consumer insight is one thing but malicious slander is another.

It's time the Mods put a muzzle on IkeWRX like they did Blue350z.

This would be a much nicer place without him.

A-MEN! There are too many owners manuals with the plastic wrapping still factory sealed onto the manuals. I'm starting to think that the population do not know how to read, or at the very least, very intimidated to do so.

My Titanium Gray A/T is on order, and I have no intentions of pulling my deposit. Ike can ramble, bitch, and moan all she wants, but until I PERSONALLY SEE transmission fall out of these cars myself, I am gonna continue trying to be patient and wait things out. Hopefully others will be as die-hard as I am...*sigh*

Another thing...all of those that are so die-hard for the next RX-7, since it will most likely going to utilize the Renesis as well, be grateful that most likely by the time it finds itself in the RX-7's engine bay, all of the bugs will be worked out ;)

I disagree.

With stories like these, you can bet everything is just fine.

http://www.popsci.com/popsci/bown/20...536479,00.html

I agree. I put IKE on my ignore list, only person thus far. And it would be nice it all quotes of his were also ignored. What's really sad is Ike may respond to this post, and I'll never see it unless somebody quotes him.

What does it matter if he responds or not? All he's doing is trash talking about something he's never even given half a chance to.

Well put, Zeqs

Hear, hear.

Rumors can kill cars. Start enough of them or pass on 'things you know' and you can begin to see the effects.

From 19 years of personal experience with Alfa Romeos -- watching the decline and fall of that car company in the US -- I've observed that the fate of a model or make lives and dies by opinion. My last daily driver Alfa -- a hotted-up 1988 Milano with over 180,000 miles -- got up every morning, had no body rust, and was exceptionally reliable for a car with that many miles.

Like the RX8, it had 50-50 balance, plenty of power, rear-wheel drive, and seated four (five, actually). At the time it was made, it would have been a major player had it worn a BMW logo. But in the US it met with little success due to being made by a much-maligned, Italian manufacturer.

Cars get their bad rep through inept maintenance and an ingnorant dealer network. Fringe-player manufacturers need not apply to the American market.

Rumors of the death of the RX7 are premature at this point. Hasn't the previous 7 only recently ceased production? Last year, Mazda released its 'final' special edition RX7:

http://www.mazda.com/publicity/public/200203/0325e.html

How a manufacturer fares in a particular market has a lot to do with it's dealer network. Alfa Romeo enjoys global prestige with the exception of the US market. Chrysler enjoys no respect anywhere except the US. GM is ho-hum globally.

Ford is a really big company. If it loses with the RX8 in the US, it will pick up the loss elsewhere. Products like the new GT40, the RX8, and the Aston Martins serve to improve Ford's image among 'people who know' things about cars and who-makes-what. None of these models MAKE them any real money. All serve to sell more Expeditions in the US, and Focii and 3's & 6's globally.

'People who know' things about cars and engines revere the rotary as an amazing, although fringe, piece of technology. It's a flat cool thing to be able to point to our cars and state, 'and, yeah, the engine redlines at 9000 and has three moving parts' (PLEASE don't flame me on THAT...it has 3 MAJOR moving parts -- I know about seals and oil pumps, etc.) How many of you have seen the NSU Spider with the Wankel sitting in the auto museum in Stuttgart, Germany? People love this engine!

Personally, I believe that the Renesis is flawed, Mazda will correct it and I'll see a new, 0-miles engine in my RX8 before it runs out its warantee. The more smiling RX8 owners Ford has, the better, I would imgaine. Even if our car is a 'loss leader' for the mother ship, Ford.

- Eric H., Marietta, GA
2004 RX8 titanium
1976 Alfa Romeo Spider
no SUVs, yet I have 2 kids!

Amen to that, Is upon us to give this car the glory it derserves, it has certain flaws, but every car that hits the market does. Its upon owners, publicity and actualy buyers and number of units sold that counts.

Thats why i created this thread, to give our imput about everything we love about our cars, postive things, things arent posted elsewhere because we are so focused in the few vehicles that came with defect, LEts reflect the big pictures and post the big image about rotary vehicles, rx8 and the community

https://www.rx8club.com/showthread.p...threadid=14794

I test drove it twice. Not as much experience as you guys have, but I gave it a chance.

Well said, however lose leaders don't sit well with ford. Just take a look at the Thunderbird. However the RX-8 does have a engine that a lot of money and research was put into so it won't get scraped as easily.