TALAN7

MAZDA'S ADS NEVER SAID ESTIMATED HP. YOU GET OVER IT.

mysql101

my car makes more than 250.

You get over it, and quit being a jealous crossfire loving all caps typer.

Spin9k

TALANZ try this example, as an art director it should make more sense.

You start with a piece of paper oh say 30 cm long, and then cut off 2 cm (that's ONE change) so now you've got a piece of paper 28 cm long.

This is an analogy for the restatement of the 8's HP AS IT WAS SOLD in '03 (I have my window sticker and it says 247 hp NOT 250 hp). I saw it and paid my money. Nothing changed as I stared at it and had the option of not buying it. But with the restaement is did in fact shrink to 238. I took the money and service option.

OK, then let's say the government announces everything is now to be measured in inches, not cms, so OK now the EXACT SAME piece of paper is said to be 11 inches long rather than 28 cm.

This is the analogy for the 238 to 232 hp rating. Absolutely nothing changes. The paper stays the same. The LABEL changes. The measurement metric changes.

So ONE change..... make sense?

TALAN7

Crossfire? What the heck are you talking about?

zoom44

4port vs 6port engines. one has more power than the other. its almost like having a 4cyl and a 6cyl option

bascho

The 4-port/6-port thing makes sense.......for some reason I thought the '06/'07 had 6-port engines in both A/T and M/T versions.

TALAN7

Before you purchased your 8 it was restated or if you prefer corected to 247 from 250.

Your measurment argument doesn't hold up due to the fact that some cars hp went up as others went down. The new measurment was what was considered a more true to life measurment. It wasn't a matter of every piece of paper going from 11 inches to 28 cm, some went up testifying that some engines were making more hp than claimed while others made less.

zoom44

they do and the difference in HP there resides in the torque converter not being able to process higher than 7.5 k rpm

Spin9k

You are 100% correct. Bad analogy.

Deslock

Mazda offered to buy back cars or give some cash back/extend warranties. 232 hp still seems a bit on the high side, but it's not that far off (maybe it's really closer to 220... I really don't give a crap). Anyone who doesn't research and test-drive a car has no one to blame but themselves.
Actually, early S2ks often dynoed around 180-190. The 2.0L later started getting around 200. The 2.2L S2k is underrated.

Most early RX8s were in the 170-180 range, but my understanding is that with flashes most are now in the 185-190 range (someone correct me if I'm wrong). Also, I've read of Japanese spec RX8s dynoing at 200-205.

For purposes of comparison, the 197 hp 2.0L from the FWD RSX/Civic Si dynos around 162 hp (from the ones I've seen). Also, the 170 hp MX5 dynos around 135 rwhp.

Paul_in_DC

The numbers are meaningless drivel. If you test drove it, you know how much power the car has. If you didn't test drive it, you're stupid.

RevTo9K

The SAE standards only standardized the way that the engines are tested. It's not like your car magically lost 6 HP. Plenty of car makers used to test liberally to increase the claimed horsepower, and plenty were more conservative.

This is entirely different than the horsepower restatement to 238 HP, where Mazda actually changed ECU programming, and the power made by the engine. This is simply a change in the testing rules that resulted in a smaller number.

Apples and oranges.

Ericok

The new SAE horsepower standard requires the engine to be tested with all accessories running (i.e., alternator, water pump, pulleys, etc.). Kind of in an "as delivered" configuration. Under the old standard (which wasn't really much of a standard), manufacturers could test the engine any way they wanted and some did it without the accessories attached. Some even shorted the engine oil to reduce internal mechanical drag. As an example, the Toyota Camry went from 210HP under the old standard to 190 with the new.

mac11

iTrader: (1)

I've said it several times already I will say it again. A class action lawsuit doesn't do anything but make a lawyer rich. The actual plantifs never make out like they thought they were going to. By the time it is all over with you are left with such an insignifigant slice of the pie you are hungrier than when you started wasting your energy of the whole deal. You car didn't lose any power since the day you got it. What does it matter what SAE or MNAO or some half retarded kid down the block says what your power is? Get in the car, turn it on, apply force to the throttle. That is how much power you have. It is the same as day one. If you are that much of a dyno queen you should sell your car right now and go buy a mustang. Regardless of the number your car still performs the exact same way as when you bought it. Rate the damn thing at 10hp for all I care, I would still be just as interested in the car because it still does the exact same thing.


Boo ******* who you ***** is just that much shorter at the watercooler.

1.3L

Good point.

I read many reviews on the RX-8, test drove it, liked the feel and performance and wrote a check. Before I even walked into the showroom or talked with a salesman I already knew that the MT RX-8 was capable of ~5.9 second 0-60 times and ~14.5 second @ ~95 MPH 1/4 mile times. I also knew that these figures were achieved by professional drivers who weren't worried about abusing the clutch, etc., so realistic owner-driver performance would be a bit less.

Fortunately, my 8 can't read and is not bipolar, so no matter what the stated/actual/advertised HP is, my 8 will still perform as it always has.

1.3L

Paul_in_DC

Er, once more in English?

EuroRX8

I couldn't agree more. Especially that some of you are complaining 3 years after the fact. If in 2003 Mazda had published 5.5 for 0-60, I would understand, how that might have influenced a purchase decision and then make the owner mad not being able to beat a 350Z. But that's not what we're talking about, and hp-s have never been as straightforward numbers as seconds are anyway.

But all you guys with the obsession for hp numbers, please keep up the discussion, it is so entertaining to read the comments, seriously One of the funniest threads.

therm8

Also for comparison then:

the 197hp 4port Rx-8 dynos at 135-145hp.

sosonic

Mazda is covering their butt by tweaking their numbers lower and lower. From 250 HP to 232 HP… I’m sure Mazda lawyers would cover you in so much paper work and red tape that suing them would be a huge and long process. Plus, Mazda, is smart enough to keep it “close” with their “new numbers”. Meaning if they tell people 232 HP and you test it an its more like 222 HP to 227 HP, than how are you going to win the court battle? The true numbers would be too close to the allowable margin of error for you to win. Like it was said, you would then need to start testing huge number of RX-8 to put together a decent legal argument and who has the time and money to do that?

I think the time and money is better served with pushing Mazda’s lazy butt to come out with a MazdaSpeed RX-8 and/or “upgrade” supercharger kit that has a Mazda warranty. Then you can get you HP back and some more…

Paul_in_DC

Tonight on the History Channel: Whiners and the Women who Woo them.

painter1

All I know is 238hp never felt so slow!!!

jmerc

That's because of the tourqe not hp.
I think that is what a lot of people do not relize, its the low tourqe that makes it feel so slow, tourqe is what gives the go off the line not hp, my 91 fc has a lot less hp than the 8 and I can make that bitch fly just use the tach.

The differences in whp and advertised hp is most likely due mainly to the ECU, other factors are the usual factors of dyno, operator, day, temp, state of tune, knowledge of the car you are running on the dyno, etc.

And Mazda is not falsely advertising numbers the reason they dropped was SAE testing, which before hand every maker used a different method to determine hp, a lot of cars lost rating some only 5 others as much as 30, so everyone get over this whining.

tiltmode43

iTrader: (15)

Beat me to it...

Worth the read

I would like to know, statistically speaking, what the correct distance from mean is allowed. The hp number must compiled through means of normal distribution, standard deviation, and z-score. My guess is that the SAE standards allow a certain variability with 232 lying smack at the top of the probability. This means that the highest possible output would be 232 with a range below it considered acceptable.


Lets just make up some examples to illustrate the idea (red shaded is the acceptable). Standard deviation is a standardized rating based off of the mean in a normal distribution. For our example we'll say 232hp is the top of the allowed ratings. Now, Mazda has some wiggle room as far as numbers, a range of acceptability (nothing mass produced has exactly the same product). We'll use standard deviations of -.15 and .15 This means that any number falling within this range is acceptable. If 232 is the top (.15 standard deviations away from the mean), the bottom (-.15 standard deviations away from the mean) would be 212 crank with a mean of 222. This would mean the bottom of the range would be about 169.6-180.2 whp and the top of the range would be 185.6-197.2whp and average (mean) would be about 177.6-188.7 (data calculated using 20-15% tranny loss respectively). With these calculations, our hp numbers are viable, some members at the top, some at the bottom but none outside of those limits.

Now, .15 standard deviations from the mean is just a guess, if the true number from SAE standards can be found we can determine what our cars should be making. Mazda/SAE both must have this number (z-score) to determine viable product output. With this in mind our dead average (mean/middle) is about 183.1whp. If any sort of lawsuite were to begin to take place, Mazda would simply throw the statistical data at us and the prosecutor would be shot down (any good lawyer wouldn't take the case because of this). Once again, if anyone can find the correct z-score from the SAE people we can calculate true acceptability.

Looks like our cars are making the propper whp as stated by Mazda/SAE after all

tiltmode43

iTrader: (15)

Just out of curiosity, how do you know that? Was there a poll of all 8 owners worldwide? I've never heard journalists saying the rx8 has "MORE than enough" power. A few owners? Sure. But most 8 owners? I don't think so.

Heh, just giving you a hard time New Yorker , if we are to critisize others we must be more careful with our own words

kuleto

Good job zoom, your response about the difference between bhp and whp shut the mouth of the original thread starter lol.