Romancer

The STi is easier to drive than the rx8?

KYLiquid

again with more vs threads, LAME

they are 2 differnt cars for differnt things.....

OontzTonic

Stock for Stock, the RX-8 is a better daily driver. The STI comes with tires that are down right dangerous to drive with in wet conditions. In my area (Seattle, Wa), a RX-8 isn't as practical if you want to put the power down. Thats why I bought my 98 Subaru.

IMO after a tire change the RX-8 comes to the top in handling, as most people would goto a better daily driven tire on the STI (the S-03s are a popular choice in this area). The biggest contrast between RWD and AWD is that on the Subaru you can point the tires where you want to go and punch the gas and it'll take you there.

As with any car comparison, there are Pros and Cons to each. And each person has different tastes. My guess is that the OP picked better looks, better handling, RWD, and better interior over Raw horsepower. The RX-8 has alot more power than what I currently drive, so from my perspective it is pretty fast. I'm more of a handling person and don't really care how fast my family and friends can go in a straight line driving their Mustangs, or Oldsmobiles.

playdoh43

I believe in the opposite, rx8 can corner faster than the STI at the limit. In fact your braking point should be later in a rx8 than a STI. It takes some real skills to drive the rx8 at the limit, taking advantage of RWD by braking late and sliding its weight into the corner. thats just the nature of awd vs rwd cars... STI is much easier to drive fast because you dont have to worry nearly as much about too much oversteer and loosing control. AWD cars are also much more steady and easier to adjust if you do oversteer and loose traction. In a sti, if i loose traction, big deal, ill just readjust. If I loose too much traction in a rx8, id be really scared because the car is about to take a few spins.

If you disregard the power difference and sti's huge advantage in corner exit acceleration, and speak purely in terms of handling... rx8 should have the higher limit. It just takes a tremendous amount of skill to drive the rx8 at its limit.
I feel much more confident to push an AWD car than a RWD car toward its limit.

liks i said before, AWD cars like EVO and STI makes crappy drivers look good and good drivers look great. but if youre a really great driver than can drive rwd cars at its limit, most of the BMI pro drivers prefer rwd.

Raptor75

They are both great cars. There are two big differences I see. 1 - to get that level of performance in the STI you give up a lot of ride quality. 2 - The STI is a low rent econ box that performs like a demon, it is very boy racer. If I had the money to keep several cars around the STI would definitely be one of them but as a daily driver the above point take it off my list.

PS I wonder how those little high stressed turbo engines will hold up over time?

playdoh43

^^^ this is about sti and rx8 in the twisties, not about "why i bought my rx8 over the sti"

Mugatu

iTrader: (1)

wow what an original thread subject. i've never heard of comparing these 2 cars ever before.

longfury

They are not high stressed at all. They have alot of reliable power left in them. I know people that have put alot of miles on the 2.0L in the WRX while making over 300whp. The STi with its 2.5L is even stronger. The Evo 4g63 is virtually bulletproff with its cast iron block.

Revolver

A respected Aussie car mag (Wheels) recently carried out a 'Handling Olympics' and the Sti came out ahead of the RX8 (Evo IX came first).

A variety of tests were performed including max G through corners and lap times.

Interestingly, the 8 just pipped the 350Z and the only other cars ahead of it were more expensive stuff like the M3, Boxster and something else I can't recall as I type this.

However, we've all read these kinda tests before. While the results can be interesting, I'd suggest the biggest factor behind whether the RX8 or Sti is faster through twisties is the bag of blood and bone in the driver's seat.

With reference to the first poster's query about the differing experience levels between him and his mate, maybe his mate was just driving more aggressively that day or has had his Sti for longer and has learnt how to wring it's neck better.

I also think these competitive pissing contests are meaningless. So long as the driver of each is having fun, who cares. Both deserve respect.

yiksing

AWD like STI, EVO always have better corner exit acceleration and will nail the 8 in handling also.

Ike

Take a look at these two pages and it'll give you an idea how the two stack up on a track. Not the best comparo since it's a Spec C 2.0L STI, but still is a decent indicator.

crossbow

pwn.

shakRpahX8

STi is also a great handling car

I think with the power and AWD system, it would still have Rx8 for dinner in twisties

Raptor2k

O rly? I doubt joor rice econobox rockets with cheating factory turbos can out-twist me!!1

Btw rx8s pwn u kthxbai lyke omg

VikingDJ

This is a tough call here. I don't know why people are saying the STI is easier to drive. In my experience that is 100% untrue, but this is likely a subjective thing., and may just depend on the person. The STI is an easy car to drive normally, but when you start using the performance capabilities, you quickly realize you need to improve. The shifting is not very smooth, and the clutch response is rapid and abrupt. You have so much power that arrives so quickly, you can get yourself into some serious trouble with the STI. I admit, I am a much better driver now then before I got my STI. When I had the RX8, I jumped right into car, and tackled the corners with ease and confidence. I think this comes from my RWD experience. I had never owned a FWD or AWD car with anywhere near this kind of performance. Initially, the precise steering and lack of tossability gave me an uneasy feeling when driving the STI fast around corners, until I developed a feel for how I can tackle turns with this type of vehicle. Complete night and day cars in the way they drive, and you learn a lot by driving the STI or EVO. You can understeer the STI right into a curb if you get careless, and don't know what you are doing. I let my GF drive my RX8, and then my S2000, and she was driving very well, hitting corners with confidence and precision. She drove STI once, and although she could drive stick shift very well, the heavier less forgiving, faster responding clutch made it difficult for her to shift smoothly, and not ride my clutch. On top of that, her precision around corners was just awful and downright scary, and after that experience I swore she'd never drive my STi ever again, and she swore she'd never drive it again. She's afraid of that car. She admitted that car is too much for her, and she absolutely hated the steering. The STI is most certainly a harder car to drive smoothly. From a street performance standpoint, you have a much more friendly car with the RX8 that pretty much anyone can drive. The STI takes some good driving skill when you start using the performance, because it's a very touchy car. The STI feels modified, because it is modified. This is just the compromise you have. The RX8 is less of a performer overall because it's a more comfortable daily driver. If they make purpose built MS RX8 with pure rawness, it's likely gonna trump the STI and EVO. I can tell you this much. My 06 S2000 to me trumps them all. That car just feels amazing, and I can hit corners with confidence like I have never before done with any other car. I can't speak for the EVO because I have never driven one, but this S2000 can do things around turns that my STI cannot do. It's noticably better then the RX8. Trying to compare the STI and RX8 in handling is just difficult to do, because the cars drive completely different.

PhotoMunkey

2006 S2000 cannot rotate its tires from front to rear.... Let us know how you like the cost of replacing the rear tires at 12k miles. Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha! If you really want to experience confidence in the corners, just up that front tire size and set your camber a bit more negative. If an S2000 feels stable in the corner, you're not going fast enough! They're built by Honda to UNDERSTEER so that you don't kill yourself.

Folks when are you going to realize that ALL cars are built to understeer on the street, with the exception of higher dollar exotics with "performance pedigree"? The manufacturers are saving lives this way. Either be happy with what you have, or go to a track, take lessons, modifiy the hell out of your car, and LEARN what real performance driving is about. Don't talk about "my buddy drove away from me in the corners in his STi... Do I suck as a driver?" I should think that answer is already PAINFULLY obvious but just in case it isn't...
YES, You SUCK more as a driver than Monica Lewinsky did as a White House aide!

That is all... Dismissed!

dillsrotary

ok who invited this guy

Mazdaspeed RX8 ver2

You need numbers, look at me! Man.... Let me get my +1 !

VikingDJ

I'm glad you got that out of your system, but you left a wide open door here, and I'm gonna take it. There are some problems I have with your almighty knowledge. The S2000 has very little to no understeer. The car will oversteer more often then not. As for tires, get real. Not rotating the tires won't do a whole lot. Rotating evens out the wear, which means I'll replace the rears sooner then the fronts, but in the end I don't lose that many miles with tires that wear out fast anyway. As for my driving, don't go there. You'd be surprised at what owning many types of cars will do for that. If you have purchased and owned many fine vehicles such as myself, then I'll actually listen to you. Otherwise, you're just spitting out the same usual garbage that others on here do. And last not not least, confidence in handling corners doesn't mean you aren't driving fast enough. A good driver will slowly test out the limits of his/her vehicle, and know what it can and can't do. I know my S2000 can handle a long jughandle at a higher rate of speed then my STI can. It's close, but slight oversteer is quite doable with this vehicle if you know what you are doing, and when you begin to feel it happen, you should know what to do, and not drive like an idiot, by going above your driving skill. pr the car's potential. We all need to learn how to drive these types of cars better, and there is a right and wrong way to do it. Now class is officially dismissed.

PhotoMunkey

"The S2000 has very little to no understeer. The car will oversteer more often then not."

From Car & Driver, 2004 S2k review:
"Because certain owners had discovered inappropriate vehicle rotation at the point of disappearing talent, Honda set about revising the chassis for better at-the-limit stability and more progressive breakaway characteristics. The front suspension wears stiffer springs and retuned shocks, and the rear axle gets softer springs and a smaller anti-roll bar, along with reduced bump-steer responses and a lower roll center."

Translation- Honda stiffened the front, making the front UNDERSTEER so that the chassis would transition to a more neutral 4-wheel drift (making the front stiffer, and the rear softer adds grip to the rear of the chassis) while reducing the car's overall cornering speed. The early cars were prone to "throttle lift oversteer" and "power on oversteer". Owners could drive in hot, lift off the gas (which is required to cure understeering) and feel their cars begin to rotate. This is what a SPORTS CAR DOES, but you can't tell that to the country club mindset. So Honda "fixed" it for them. Your later car is viewed as much better handling than the previous car, which everyone rated as "great" or "sharp as a surgeon's scalpel". Now its are only prone to "power on oversteer" when leaving a corner, BUT enter a corner too fast and your 06 S2k will still understeer. It just does so at a speed higher than what you're driving

It's definitely one of the best handling cars in the market, but it does so with tires staggered 30mm in size. This is an old racing trick to tame oversteer, and I can guarantee that's because Honda shipped the car to US customers tuned to produce a measurable amount of understeer, rather than oversteer. Mazda also shipped the RX-8 with a touch of understeer at the limit, but did so in the chassis balance, camber curves, and a superior front and rear roll center, not with tire stagger. It makes the car safer for the masses. I'm not saying its "better" that way, just safer for drivers like your girlfriend.

"Not rotating the tires won't do a whole lot. Rotating evens out the wear, which means I'll replace the rears sooner then the fronts, but in the end I don't lose that many miles with tires that wear out fast anyway."

Wasn't that my point? The RX-8 can rotate tires, making it likely to see the sunny side of 30k on one set. The S2K will be lucky to see 15k on the rears, and by 30k will need to replace both front and rears. The Bridgestone Potenza RE-050As that come on your Honda WOULD last that long if they could be rotated. They do NOT wear out as fast as you think. An RX-8 owner will change 4 tires to 6: advantage to the RX-8. Of course, if you can afford the tires (and obviously you can) then the point is moot.

"If you have purchased and owned many fine vehicles such as myself, then I'll actually listen to you."

That is quite a snobbish view. Money ALWAYS knows best, right? Witness Paris Hilton... She could probably buy both you and I, yet lives in a perpetual fog! I know an entire host of car owners who own cars far more expensive than your Honda S2k who are incredibly clueless about chassis dynamics. They'll never approach the handling limits of their cars. These folks are the reason why Mfgs build street cars to understeer. I'm NOT saying that you're clueless, but you obviously have dismissed me as such, and that's rude. What I own is blatently irrelevant to the discussion at hand, which was concerning the at-the-limit handling of your S2000. It carries a dry weight balance of 49/51%, which will skew even farther to the rear if you add fuel, a passenger, luggage, etc (2800 lb car plus 300 lbs of passengers plus 50 lbs of luggage equals a recipe for disaster, and Honda knows it). Want to know why the S2000 has only 5 cubic feet of luggage room? If they'd made the trunk bigger, and someone actually USED it for something other than golf clubs, the car could become absolutely lethal on a wet road, if the throttle were suddenly lifted in the corner. Particularly when your non-rotatable rear tires have worn their inside edges down! But don't worry, I'm confident in your ability to over-PAY someone to change those tires for you.

Having money doesn't make an opinion more valuable, but it definitely can make someone into a sanctimonious, conceited ***. Thankfully, I started out that way so I don't have money to blame. What's your excuse?

sti_eric

Here, I have something for you:



Apparently the forum you are look at is missing it.

VikingDJ

PHotomonkey. This is what we call magazine research vs real world personal experience. Which is more valuable? You tell me? You can throw that stuff out all you want, but the fact remains that I have tested my cars to their limits, and my 01 S2000 oversteered a lot when I pushed around turns. Now I realize the S2000 has become more friendly in the way it drives starting in 2004, but to understeer the 01 means either you can't drive, or you are manipulating it. Common sense. My driving never gets me to that area, and I simply do not understeer. My STi understeers before it should when pushing it into corners like I did my 01, and that was my point all along to this discussion. I'm still breaking in my 06, so I have not been able to really test it yet. It's definitely designed to understeer, but that's if you are simply going beyond it's cababilities. I wasn't arguing that. Trust me when I tell you, my 01 OVERSTEERED on my one auto x experience, and on the street. I couldn't even get the thing to understeer. unless I had done something highly dangerous and stupid. Good drivers control this, and I have not suffered understeer, probably because I know what I'm doing. We appear to be arguing two different things here, which is why this little debate is coming to a quick hault. Nothing gets accomplished. Seriously though, I recommend you get out and drive these cars. It's so much better then reading magazines to get your information.

PhotoMunkey

Anyone want to loan me their Honda S2000 for a quick trip to Willow Springs Int'l Raceway? Phoenix International? Firebird? CA Speedway?

The last car I test drove was a 505-hp 05 Mustang GT. Before that it was a 420 rwhp BMW E36 M3. Before that was a 416 rwhp E46 M3. Great cars all, but every one would understeer into a corner (stock suspension), and oversteer out of the corner at any time due to horsepower (also stock). In modified form, these were far better than most. I've sampled 4 different RX-8s and one new MX-5. I've driven a Porsche Boxster at the limit at Firebird Int'l. All good handling cars. I have not driven a Honda S2000 yet. No plans to do so either. It doesn't meet my needs.

As long as it puts a smile on your face, then it's a good car! That's all that really matters when you're the one writing the check for the payment.

PhotoMunkey

One small bit of "bench racing" though...

Speed Magazine, Nov/Dec 2005 (published by Road & Track)
Honda S2000 Tuner shootout

Stock 05 Honda S2k
200 ft skidpad: .9g w/mild understeer
700-ft slalom: 69.2 mph w/mild understeer

04 AEM Racing S2k
200ft skid pad: .9g w/mild understeer
700 ft slalom: 71.4 mph w/mild understeer

03 Compech S2k
1.0 g w/mild understeer
72.9 mph w/neutrality

02 David Karner (enthusiast owned car)
.97g w/mild understeer
72.3 mph w/mild understeer

02 Greg Park (enthusiast owned car)
.93g w/moderate understeer
71.9 mph w/mild understeer

01 Mackin Industries S2k
1.04g w/mild understeer
72.2 mph w/mild understeer

Their test drivers? A bunch of magazine hacks? Nope. Just 3-time SCCA Touring Car champion Pierre Kleinubing. 24 overall SCCA TCC victories in the Real Time Racing Acura TSX. He'll be driving a Honda S2000 in the SCCA-backed Formula D championship this year. Did all 6 cars just happen to understeer, or is he a worse driver than you?

While you're driving your car at your comfort level, I stand by my earlier statement. You're still not driving the car hard enough to reach its limits.

BTW-when your 01 S2k oversteered at the auto-x, what did YOU do to fix the problem? Raise front tire pressures? Lower rear tire pressures? Did you simply drive the car slower and think, "Well, that's how it is."?

Bart!

I just took my car out on a giant roof top parking lot (empty). Wet ground + slow rain/mist, new tires. I laid out about 25 cones around the lot and took the car to the test, whoooaa it was fun :]

It's extremely easy to lose control on corners and turns in second gear, and pretty hard to completely recover if you fall into a big slide.