windahdah

OK, for starters I feel that launching a new RX7 would be FAR more risky for Mazda than would be a simple wagon version of the RX8. Secondly not all people can afford two vehicles like my canadian friend. I personally own 2 cars, one a sedan the other a highly modified suzuki sidekick off roader. I chuckle when I see people in HUGE SUV's that are all toughed up for off roading. They are eye candy and can't compete off road with the real thing. I admit that my little Suzuki can't haul the kids like a Suburban BUT I have a Nissan Maxima SE for that purpose (see we do have something in common).

I agree that the concept of the "Cross Trainer Shoe" is bunk. Surely the Jack of all trades master of none adage is correct but how does that apply to the RX8 Wagon? It will be no more slow than the regular RX8 and should handle and stop as just as well, so where's the rub? Surely it won't be as able to tote the kids and camping gear as the Suburban, but it will do better than would the sedan/coupe no? That's the point....low rooflines and small back seats have been the eye candy of the sports car world for eons. The RX8 breaks that mold and says you can have sports car performance and handling without sacrificing your back seat. The RX8 wagon says you can have your back seat and some considerable stowage capacity too (especially with back seats folded flat). If you ask me the RX8 wagon would be the ultimate expression of this kind of thinking....The Practical Sports car.

Just think canada man...you could sell the sports car and the sedan, buy an RX8 Wagon and whole family is just as happy. With the spare money you could get that REALLY loud Harley you got all those tattoo's for.

73JPS

I am told that the Canadian identity is to be far more docile and polite than I seem to be here... wow, my first cyber scrap!

Tatoos aren't for me, I just sold my 2000 ZX6R, and I ain't much of a Harley man (although I have worked with about a dozen guys who have them, and most of them seemed fairly sure of themselves...). Like I said before, I just don't think the RX8 (wagon or otherwise) is going to be that practical, and I hate to see it sort of end up lumped in with the family sedan crowd.

So are you telling me its going to easier to hope for an RX8 wagon and sell your Maxima SE than it is to convince your wife to take on a third car?

And while anything I may have written that is the least bit offensive has been said totally tongue in cheek (:D ), and nothing you have said honestly offends me at all (all in good fun, my man), please do put a capital "C" on "Canada" or "Canadian" : we have one tenth yer population, but we are still a country. I mean, you even put a capital "H" on Harley...:D

pelucidor

Mazda will not release a wagon version of the RX-8 at the same time as the sedan. So in your opinion they should only release the wagon so that they will have a REALLY PRACTICAL SPORTS CAR so that you can be happy. Never mind they would have to redesign the car to make the rear seats fold down, probably remove the center tunnel, probably replace the swing doors with regular doors etc. Very easy and cheap to do I am sure...

Most people in the USA don't really like the idea of a wagon (no matter how good it looks), so when Mazda goes bust 6 months later having made a few hundred sales there will be no chance of ever getting the sedan or a convertible or an RX-7 - but you will be happy...

Mazda needs to have massive success with the RX-8 before they can give us wagon or convertible versions of it and other cool cars like the RX-7. If they make enough money on the RX-8 sedan they can afford to sell the RX-7 halo car for a smaller profit margin and still sell way more of these than any RX-8 wagon (there is fanatical devotion to the RX-7 and guaranteed buyers, can you say the same exists for any brand of wagon?). I trust Mazda to make the right business decision.

Hercules

The 6 will be their wagon.

I don't see the point of a rotary wagon, the low torque hurts a wagon that needs a little bit of pull because you're using it to haul stuff around... but hey, who am I say rule it out

I'd hate to see it though, it's really like taking a corvette and making a wagon out of it. Ruins the reputation of your car

73JPS

Well Herc, I'm with you, but it looks like we have to be careful. Previous posts have indicated that if we are worrying about this image thingy with relation to cars, it might mean we have a self-image problem.:D

Spining Ncnratr

Only thing I'm adding is Ford is still kicking themselfs for not making the SHO wagon. If they had then the SHO would still be in production.

Sputnik

What makes you think that a SHO wagon would have kept the SHO Taurus alive?

---jps

Spining Ncnratr

Because my Uncle worked for Ford at Walton Hills stamping plant
and I got to see background and consumer feed back reports on it
But yes the RX-8 has enough versatility to not be a Wagon but look at BMW and their sport wagons of the 3 and 5 series.

Sputnik

Interesting... Were they wanting more power, or were they actually interested in a sport wagon with an upgraded suspension? Or were the feed back reports not that detailed?

---jps

windahdah

You people are OFF YOUR ROCKERS! It's tiny impractical sports cars with no room inside that GOT MAZDA INTO FINANCIAL TROUBLE IN THE FIRST PLACE. That's why Ford bought half of the company. Your assertions that an RX8 wagon would get Mazda into deeper financial trouble is crazy. And as for how difficult you seem to think it will be, well I disagree--it's easy to turn a sedan into a wagon. As for Torque well 162lb/ft. is enough for any sub 3000 lb. car.

The Europeans seem very keen on the Wagon concept. This is largely because in Europe WAGONS are everywhere. They don't equate the word wagon with Ford Country Squire or Chevy Caprice Classic like so many NA's do. Our Wagons used to SUCK and they all died in the late 70's and were replaced with Minivans and then with SUV's (whick suck even worse). Forward looking individuals recognize that wagons offer all the benefits of cars with more practicality.

I'm terribly sorry if the RX8 Wagon doesn't fit with your concept of what the car should be, or if it offends you somehow. On the other hand I get the feeling that most of the fanatics here on this forum really just want the return of the RX7. Perhaps those people should go start the new RX7 forum or something...you can all argue about how a back seat is entirely useless and stuff. As for those of us that want a no-compromise sports car, we'd love to see the RX8 Wagon.

Top Cars for the "Image Conscious":

1) Audi TT
2) Mini Cooper
3) VW New Beetle
4) Ford Thunderbird
5) BMW X5 (why not just get the 5 series wagon?)

Otherwise known as "Vicmobiles" around here for the Fashion Victims usually found inside.

Spining Ncnratr

Just like the sedans with possability of 5 spd trans in the mix but everything the same except in the wagon body.

PatrickB

Dude, take a chill pill. PEople will pay more attention to you if youdon't sound like you're off your rockers. Mazda got in trouble for a variety of reasons, much of which were lagging sales on the 626. With the RX-7, it was overheating problems and pricing that car out of reach that was the problem, not its existence.

It might be relatively easy to do, but that doesn't mean it would be free. Would the extra cost of training, parts, and maintenance be made up by increased sales, without robbing sales from the Mazda6?

That's why Mazda has the Mazda6 sport wagon in Europe, and will be starting production of it in the states as well.

zoom44

actually you have that backwards-wagons are everywhere because europeans like them.
it is enough for any sub 3000lbs. car that you own. don't speak for me. if this car doesn't climb the hill, that i go over every day and night to and from work, at a rate i like then it is not enough torque. i don't care what the number says.
what do they equate the word wagon with?actually, my family had a lot of fun in our ford country squire and i bet if you asked people back then they would have said their wagons were great. my mom and my freinds moms at the time loved them. and SUVs suck so much now, they hardly sell any
i must be backward looking then, because i recognize that wagons also have increased weight and different centers of gravity then their sedan counterparts which will affect acceleration and handling not to mention fuel economy.

wakeech

exactly Zoom... i'll just elaborate on your last point...

this "no comprimize" stuff is just marketing garbage. there is ALWAYS a trade-off, and any engineer can back me up on this ('cause i'm not one... :p)
the RX-8 is not a no comprimize car: think about the next 7, which'll be on a shortened, and contracted version of the same chassis the 8 is on now, with a (presumeably) more powerful engine. tell me how the 8 is on the same level with it, whilst maintaining its 4 seater configuration, with the less powerful engine (which would be, again presumeably, lighter on the fuel and probably cleaner out the back end).

there is always a comprimize, and those who say this car isn't comprising are salespeople... making a sports car half a compact sedan (which makes it a sports-sedan) rather than a sedan half a sports car (like a BMW), it retains a sportier focus, but is still not a purebread sports machine.
taking that a step further and making it into a wagon would again move this car away from the sports philosophy.

PatB also raises a good point in that the 8Wagon would pull sales away from the Mazda 6 Wagon, it's an uneccessary overlap: besides, how many wagon buyers are adventurous enough to want a rotary engine, eh??
and if you're gonna say "the 8 would be the Escort Wagon to the 6's Taurus wagon", then i'm just gonna have to remind you that the Protege 5 is already on the market.

sorry bud, i sincerely doubt it's gonna happen. the 8 is pretty far upscale already, and a rotary engined, more expensive "sports" wagon isn't gonna sell... of course, that's just my opinion, i'm often very wrong.
:D

pelucidor

When I was absolutely besotted about the Honda S2000 I read every review I could find. In several of them the reviewer noted (sometimes sarcastically) that the passenger seat airbag could not be turned off so making it impossible to put a baby seat there. One reviewer asked Honda how he was expected to carry his baby in the car. The answer from Honda was something like "this is a no compromise sports car, don't carry babies in it as it's not designed to do that". I'm sure it might be almost as easy to add an airbag-defeat switch to the S2000 as to turn the RX-8 into a wagon , but for some reason I like that answer...

If you always compromise based on every person's input you end up pleasing no-one. Of course a 'no compromise' attitude is just as bad as others have pointed out

I doubt those engineers that worked nights and weekends for free to design the RX-8 thought "just 12 more weekends and we'll have the perfect wagon"; some other passion must have been inspiring them...

pelucidor

1),3),4) Agreed they are mostly image cars
2) Many people say the MINI is an amazing handling vehicle. Image and performance don't always have to be mutually exclusive. The RX-8 ought to fall into this category.
5) I made EXACTLY this comparison a few months back. The BMW 540 wagon is cheaper, has much more space and much better performance than the X5 4.4. I agree the X5 is all about image, and I would not get one as a much better alternative exists.

Sadly the 540 wagon (I also looked at the VW Passat wagon, Audi A6 Avant, Audi allroad quattro, Mercedes E-class wagon) did not have sufficient space for my needs (two huge dogs - need at least 50 cubic feet behind 2nd row seats). The Merc was closest to space requirements but looks hideous and too expensive. So eventually I got an SUV (Acura MDX) which was the 'smallest' and most car-like vehicle that fit my space/luxury/reliability needs.

Note that I wanted a sporty luxury wagon but had to compromise and get a low-image SUV... if only BMW/Audi made a much bigger wagon

pelucidor

If, a few years after the RX-8 comes out, thousands of people go into Mazda showrooms, test-drive the RX-8 and love the rotary engine, the slick gearshift, the perfect balance, the gorgeous looks, the 4 seats etc,....
...but then say they will only buy it if it was a wagon.... at that point I would say that Mazda should build a wagon - they are in the business to make money after all. And they could then use that money to fund other projects (e.g. a higher end car to base their reputation on like the RX-7). Personally I can't see it happening...

windahdah

Say what you will about the difficulties of developing a Wagon but I'd note that other Wagon versions of Sporty Sedans (yes my friends I consider the RX8 to be a sedan, sorry) like Ummm...Lessee...The WRX, BMW 3 and 5 series, Volvo's of all ilks, Saab 5 series...they all perform virtually the same as the sedan. Name one that is even marginally slower than it's sedan counterpart? As for handling/cornering in fact in most cases the handling improves with the Wagon's additional rear weight bias, which usually amounts to around 50 additional pounds. Furthermore the shape of a wagon usually lends itself to a more aerodynamic shape for the rear end, lowering wind drag. So I'd say that the argument that a wagon represents a comprimise in terms of performance vs. a sedan is BUNK.

Since I'm no Mazda Engineer and neither are many of you I suspect I don't think we can comment on how difficult it might be to engineer such a change to the RX8. I can say with relative assuredness that making and RX8 wagon would be MUCH easier than making the RX7 off the RX8 Chassis. Furthermore I would wager to guess that (given the small (and shrinking) segment of the car market made up by 2 seat sports cars) an RX8 Wagon model would exceed the sales of said RX7 2 seater in todays market (especially when viewed from worldwide demand). Like it or not (and I suspect not by many of you) wagons are a growing market segment and 2 seaters a shrinking one. Some people think that wagons are the next SUV.

Lastly I for one think that Wagons if done right (like the Alfa already clipped earlier in this thread) are SWEET Looking. Better than their stablemates in many cases. I think the RX8 could be morphed into a particularly cool looking ride. Obviously some disagree, saying it's like putting a wagon on the Corvette. Well since they sell a paltry 50,000 Corvettes a year in N. America then perhaps they'd better consider it. Mazda made the RX8 a 4 door 4 seat car because they seek VOLUME, and I'm not talking about interior space.

Buenos (re)Tardes amigos.

zoom44

ok lets see if any of the photoshop wizards will take a stab at creating an rx8wagon. anyone up for the challenge?

wakeech

Windadah, i really don't want to be critical, but some of your ideas are wrong.

Since when has rear weight bias been an empirically beneficial to handling, not to mention an extra 50 lb?? now, yes, race cars (as in F1 or CART karts) are setup with "strong" rear biases with weight, but then again, they've got all sorts of front end aerodynamic grip (which is increasing normal force on the front wheels without increasing the mass of the car), not to mention the grip they NEED on the rear wheels under acceleration out of a corner. the same is not necessarily true for a vehicle with a net lift value of about zero; in fact, i know this is false... my gr12 champoin kart driver chemistry teacher (like 100cc's or something... ya know, the small ones) tells me this is so (i'm inclined to belive him).

I'm not an engineer, but i do know a thing or two about aerodynamics, and i've never seen any evidence to suggest that a hatchback is more aerodynamic than a fast-back coupe (they DO call them fast backs for a reason). if this claim that hatchbacks universally have less drag than a "more streamlined" shape, then wouldn't everything be shaped that way?? think about it: why do torpedoes, airplanes, the wings on aircraft, (speed) boats (like catamarans, or hydroplanes), race cars, etc, etc, etc, NOT have a flat plane on the trailing end of the body moving through the fluid?? it's because laminar flow is inherently lower drag than turbulent, and a given fluid has an engergetic threshold only so high before the laminar flow separates and turbulence is created as you try to change the direction of the flow (around the blunt end of something).

so, no, it's not bunk to say that having a wagon is comprimizing vehicle performance for greater practicality.

you must also remember that sales are not dependant ONLY on the high volume sales cars, but also on the image the entire coporation projects onto their products. without a serious halo car, Mazda's image will continue to be dominated by the Zoom Zoom kid, and how much he likes Miatas. Mazda needs the RX-7 to continue to increase it's share of the marketplace.
i'm not sure about the validity of you statement about the growth or reduction (in real terms) of sales in those markets, but i do know that it is still worth it to Mazda to produce two seaters and profit in that market niche.
remember too that it was a big folly for Mazda to try and beat Toyota and Honda, as they did in the early 90's: the very same could happen in the estate car market.

73JPS

I hate myself, I hate myself I hate myself... but mostly I did it so I could make the pic that appears in the next post... honest...

Hey, looks like she handles pretty good, eh boys? Geez, she's goin' pretty fast too!

73JPS

And for you, Windahdah my friend... sorry, I couldn't resist!:D And yes, as a matter of fact, that is the best I can do...:D :D

Quick_lude

That looks pretty good! Where do I sign.. haha... not.

windahdah

Now that does look pretty sweet! Could you clean up the window around the C pillar? I don't think they'd leave that large of a blind spot....

Where to I sign up??? Just think fellaz, a real Sports Wagon (not just a "sporty" wagon like all those other ones). 73JPS, I'm going to have to personally drive my new RX8 SportsWagon up to Toronto just to thank you....

As for the Aerodynamic principles of Wagons vs. sedans, well read up on the work of an old german physicist named Wunibald Kamm whose work led to the Shelby Dayton Coupe and a whole bunch of other race cars (without the need for drag inducing rear wings). I think then you'll understand where I'm coming from.

And seriously guys....If all you really want is another RX7 then please go to the RX7 forum, or go start one if it's not around...

pelucidor

I completely disagree that the market is shrinking for 2-seater sports cars. It is increasing - have you seen the waiting lists for the 350Z, the S2000 etc. Porsche just had their most profitable year ever. I believe that a certain company even sold over 600,000 2-seater sports cars over the last decade - the main reason it's still alive today.

As far as wagon sales go, in the late 1980's wagon sales peaked at 600,000 in the USA, now they are 250,000 per year. Analysts are predicting possible growth in the wagon market... to 375,000 over the next 5 years, but this includes mass-market vehicles like the Matrix, Vibe, PT Cruiser etc (not really up to par with a BMW 540 wagon). Wagons ARE NOT the next SUV, or even the next minivan (minivans sales = 1.3M per year, SUV sales = 4M per year and growing fast).

If wagons are such a guaranteed money maker then why isn't there an Accord or Camry wagon. You might have noticed that these cars sell pretty well without a wagon version. Why isn't there a BMW 7 series wagon, or a Mercedes S-class wagon (or even a Ford Crown Victoria wagon or Chrysler 300M wagon - I've already mentioned the Accord and Camry). Manufacturers don't make wagon versions of their top-end cars, and the RX-8 is the top-end Mazda for the time being.