Ophitoxaemia

its a cool car and all, but i am disappointed since it doesnt make the 270 i initially heard for the side port, nor the 247 it was originally advertised at, nor the 238 that i signed a disclaimer for in the dealership.

arguing that businesses can lie about their products as long as we dont notice or object is a dangerous precedent to set. i prefer that businesses are legally required to tell the truth about their products- horsepower, safety, and otherwise.

james

Hard 8

What you said.

Without repeating all my disclaimers earlier in this thread about how I love the car and how the HP issue is not critical to me, I do have say I'm surprised that no one else is suing Mazda about this one.

Your avatar reminds me of when Carroll Shelby was selling "new old stock" Cobras, saying they were left-over chasses, when in reality he had simply reserved the serial numbers and put them on brand-new cars. I read that, amazingly, none of his defrauded customers sued him. Why not? Perhaps because (a) they still loved the cars they bought (which were still, in a sense, "real" Cobras); and (b) a lawsuit might have diminished their value and prestige. Same here?

Raptor

Welcome to the real world! pretty much any product you can buy is a half lie, from video games( that is my line of business ) to toilet paper.
I don't think mazda went out of its way and lied about the hp more that any other car maker.
On the other hand, they delivered a great balanced car for a reasonable price.

rx8wannahave

Altima
Maxima
I35
Grand Prix GTP
Bonneville SSEi
Buick Regal GS
Impala SS
Monte Carlo SS
Saturn Ion
Cobalt SS
Accord V6

First, I understand you are talking about the numbers…but I don’t compare FWD cars to the RX8. Price per ¼ mile yes, I knew about those cars…but they really don’t compare to the RX8. If someone is after price per ¼ mile then those cars should be considered but I’m not one of them. At least not with cars that are not REAL sports cars in my opinion.

WRX
Legacy GT
Forester
Outback
Evo VIII RS

WRX, Evo, and the new Legacy GT…I understand but the outback and Forester…I mean COME ON MAN!!! Again, I’m talking about numbers but Its not my #1 love. I actually like the new Legacy GT but its new and beyond my top price of $24,000 out the door.

I agree and I do not…I can’t say this enough, I DO NOT take a car in parts mainly but in everything it’s about. I love the 8 because…

It looks so good
It has comfortable back seats
It has those extra doors to help entry/exit
It’s FAST (enough for me)
It handles GREAT
It’s quality is very good
It’s a great bang for the buck sports car
It’s VERY fun to drive (and I never even pushed it on my test drive…a driver car…how it makes you feel…)


AMEN! I know I’m an idealist but some people don’t like when people complain and/or want them to accept what ever is dished out to them. LOL, those are the people who probably said in America’s early years…”Hay, the English want to tax the heck out of us…but hay, what are you going to do…dont complain about it…” LOL…sorry…for the sarcasm





The RX8 is not meant to be a straight line, drag racing type of car, so it's no surprise that it's relatively bad at this. Drag racing an RX8 is like auto-crossing a stock Mustang: sure, you could do it, and the car might be halfway decent at it, but if that's what you really care about then why not buy a car that's actually designed for the task, rather than trying to make your car in to something that it's not? As has been said time and again on this forum, if being faster than the car next to you at a stoplight is important to you, the RX8 is not the car to buy.

rx8wannahave

This, I can not argue with...

This is what bothers me...naa, I'll make a new post about it and what for the flames!

G8rboy

The question I have for most people here is this- we all had reasons we liked the RX8 enough to consider buying it... and I'm assuming we all test drove the car before we bought it... right? Now that some people have shown that this same car that we loved and bought might only be producing 225hp, that it's now somehow tarnished... lost its luster. Funny thing is it still accelerates the same to me, still handles like a dream, and is still the best car for the money out there in my opinion. And hell- my car stickered for nearly $36k... not that I paid sticker... but I would have... which is still helluva lot of engineering for the money in my opinion.

I guess the point of my rambling is this- just because it can't live up to some HP numbers on the dyno or in a drag race doesn't change the original reasons why we bought it... especially in real world driving experiences... at least not for me. There are very few cars that can still evoke the same level of emotion from it's owners after a year of ownership as the day they first read about it in a magazine. That to me is priceless.

TyrellCorpNexus8

Ophitoxaemia has stated the true issue here. This is my position. This is also the position of the 2 lawyers in this thread (Hard 8 and Rennwagen).

silver1.3

I have not read this whole thread but I do have a question. I picked up "Speed" magazine - the one with the white mazdaspeed version in it. Also in it is an article on the Mazdaspeed racing team. In it they say something rather interesting to me: they say the the engine is basically the same as stock but they use a stand alone ECU unit that lets them make 260 bhp. What that tells me is that either all the emissions equip. is choking of some serious hp or the programming it too agressive for a street car. Could be both I guess. I find it interesting as well that if the engine is basically stock then it is quite possible to make the 250 bhp or as least the 238 - I just wish I knew the particulars of what and why the race car does.

rx8wannahave

That's about right...I agree. I think people, me with fuel economy, just want to vent our frustration when numbers or estimates don't turn out right. But, like you said...and I don't even own one yet...the 8 is a great car as it is...with some tweaking...it will become SUPER!

GiN

The stand alone ecu allows for a more aggressive high-resolution engine tune. On top of that, they run race gas and no catalytic converter. With that said, it's very feasible that the engine with stock internals and intake tract can make ~260hp. According to one member of a Pro Formula Mazda race team, drive train losses of 50hp are not unheard of, even in race cars with sequential shift transmissions.

jrknu

Here are some caps, RX-7 and RX-8, no problem with caps from real people.

As far as getting Mazda to prove or even certify 238 HP, dream on all

They can’t / won’t even give accurate stats on oil consumption or m.p.g.

All such information, given to mere consumers would be very dangerous,
and is best left to be guessed at and debated by the owners after they have
bought the farm.

irish8

Your BOY is talking CRAP!!!!

- Irish

G8rboy

You're right! I'm going to drive my 8 over a cliff right now because this information is soooo dangerous. I really wish I hadn't bought the farm first...

rx8wannahave

True...that's all, it's not that the RX8 is bad (ITS GREAT) it's just that when information is given out to mislead or that has not been researched enough which in turn misleads your customer...THEN SHAME ON THEM!!!

The truth is what most people are trying to get at, not that they don't like their cars, but the truth is what matters the most to them...ME

dmp

I'm uneducated and have a small *****. I live in a trailer, too.

There...everyone feel better about themselves?

guy 'a' says "Mazda should simply be honest". guy 'b' says 'stop your whining, if you hate your car, sell it" .

People either miss 'the point' from ignorance or indifference.

1.3L

Call me dumb, but I just don't get it. You do your research, read endless reviews and road tests in all of the popular car magazines. Next, you test drive lots of different cars, including the 8. In the final analysis, you decide to buy an 8 because you DROVE it. And when you DROVE it you discover that it goes fast, handles well, engine never runs out of revs, seats fit and and you love the sound of the engine. You were impressed.

Before you drove it, or at least by the time you laid down your hard-earned cash, you already knew the 8 would do about .90 on the skid pad; do 0 to 60 in about 5.9 seconds; had well balanced handling.

And now there are some who complain that the 8 might not have 238 HP. My question is, so what?! You already drove it, you KNEW how it felt and performed and it impressed you enough to BUY it. I'll bet you were happy with it until someone suggested that the engine might generate something less than 238HP. So, let's make a stretch and assume Mazda says the Renesis "only" makes 220HP or whatever. Will that statement suddenly make the 8 sitting in your garage or driveway suddenly go slower than the day you test drove it??? I don't think so. You'll still have the same car that apparently impressed you enough to buy it in the first place. Right?

So the question that begs to be asked, why did you buy the car? Was it because the window sticker stated 238HP? Or, was it because the car performed so well on your test drive that you decided you couldn't live with out it?

caveat emp·tor (ĕmp'tôr') pronunciation
n.

The axiom or principle in commerce that the buyer alone is responsible for assessing the quality of a purchase before buying.

1.3L

Grabitquick

My sentiments exactly. :D

quack_p

Sorry I missed the flame war. I agree with 1.3L. The RX-8's strong suit has never been power. You could tell me the car has 400 HP, and it really doesn't change the fact that it looks sweet and is fun to drive.

valpac

iTrader: (2)

Here's an interesting site. They dynoed a 350Z on various machines. Looks like the data really converged, huh?

http://www.turbomagazine.com/tech/0306tur_dynodash/

par. 2 The Dynojet 248 is the standard when it comes to dyno testing, but a number of other options have popped up in recent years. Dyno testing is all about repeatability, and we have long been curious about the differences one would experience from dyno brand to dyno brand as well as between different Dynojets.

Man, if I was a 350 owner and saw the 228HP (vs. the published 287HP) numbers posted by the Super Flow SF-1853 dyno, I'd be all over Nissan for lying to me. Hoo boy, I'd be pissed.

TyrellCorpNexus8

Aoshi,

For HIM, I was really focusing on the lovable and goofy parts. The retard part happened to tag along as I did not create that line in the movie.

rx8cited

LMAO! Thanks for the humor .

Well stated!

I love my RX-8 just like guy 'a' here and would love to see Mazda produce their dyno results and put this issue to rest. I wonder if New York State Attorney General Eliot Spitzer could help here .


If guy 'b' discovered that those 12 oz cans of his favorite beer only contained 11 oz beer, I wonder what his reaction would be. Would he want to hear, "Well, you've been picking up the cans and holding them before you pay for and drink them all this time, so what's the problem?"

valpac

iTrader: (2)

Good idea. Let the moderator delete all name calling posts to this thread.

rotarygod

Here's the way I look at the whole "lost horsepower" topic. First of all companies publish numbers. Aftermarket companies do this too. they don't force you to believe them though. Sometimes the product makes more power than quoted, other times it makes less. Take the LS1 Camaros for instance. They put down more power than rated. I have never seen a single person complain about restoring original horsepower on those cars because they have too much. Double standard? Um, yeah! The Camaro regardless of it's published power numbers vs it's actual numbers till produces the SAME claimed performance. So does the RX-8. This is the ONLY relevant thing. Shouldn't the Camaro guys be pissed their cars aren't even faster than rated since they are more powerful? If they were RX-8 guys they probably would.

Also, since no one here actually did the original testing or has driven a more powerful stock RX-8, who's to definitively say that any power is lost? First of all, "restoring original horsepower" implies that the car came with much more power when you bought it but you have somehow lost it since then and want it back. You bought the car this way. You've lost nothing. I don't see anyone buying a K&N intake and then complaining to K&N about restoring the lost 9 hp they claimed to make over stock in their dyno sheet. People just install these things and accept them the way they are.

Get off of the published numbers. They are irrelevant. What is printed in a brochure or magazine doesn't make your car any faster. How it actually performs is where he judgement should be made. The car performs as advertised. What's the problem?

This thread started out stupid and has now hit page 11 of stupid.

bryrx804

What he said ^^^^ Agree in every way.

Ike

RG, I hope you're playing devils advocate a bit here. I find it hard to believe you actually think it's a double standard to be upset about getting less hp than advertised and not get upset about getting more hp than advertised.

It's analogy time kids! :p Lets say you go to a restaurant and order some chicken wings, 10 of them to be precise. The server brings out your ings and there are 12 of them, do you complain, I don't think anyone on this board can honestly say they would. Maybe you say something to the server and tell them you got 2 extra wings and ask if you're being charged for them. The server responds no, we gave you a couple extra and they're free of charge, enjoy! The following week you go to a different restaurant and order 10 wings again, this time you receive 8, the wings are damn good but you feel cheated and you're going to be left a little hungry. Do you just say to yourself, oh well they're good wings I don't care if I didn't get how many I'm paying for, or do you say something to the server and get what you payed for? So you say something, the servers response is "sorry, I know you were supposed to get 10 but we decided to only give people 8 wings when they order 10". Don't you feel a little cheated and upset at this point? Might some people be happy and satisfied with the 8 wings, certainly, but you shouldn't expect others to be accepting of getting less than what they payed for.

In the situation with the the the wings as well as the hp with the RX-8 vs. Z28 hp there is absolutely no double standard. A double standard would be an ethical or moral code that applies more strictly to one group than to another, and that simply isn't the case with your nor my example.

Also, comparing aftermarket performance gains with published legally binding claims made by an automanufacturer is a downright fallacy. There are actuall legal standards by which auto manufacturers must conform, and the published hp numbers must be within 5% of the claimed hp. No such law for aftermarket parts exists to my knowledge.

Lastly, I don't think it's the published numbers that people have a problem with. It's the fact that people bought the car with 238 or 247hp on their window sticker having faith in Mazda that it was actually there. They may have driven the car and still loved it and bought it, but does that make them any less entitled to get what they paid for? Just because you get 8 great tasting wings when you ordered 10 doesn't mean you should be expected to be satisfied because they tasted great.