czr

iTrader: (3)

From what I heard, hard to accurately Dyno this car.
https://www.rx8club.com/rx-8-discussion-3/another-boring-i-went-dyno-today-post-44001/
https://www.rx8club.com/rx-8-discussion-3/i-know-all-rx-8s-not-built-same-how-much-horsepower-difference-allowed-37269/

But wouldn't we be indebted if Hard 8 did some pro bono work for us on his spare time. :D I know..longshot.

Edit: found a link

Ike

1.) Believing Mazda's hp numbers is a lot like believing in god, it's blind faith and all the evidence supports that Mazda is wrong. Map out an argument for either and you have one big fallacy.

2.) Wouldn't it be more fun if it actually had the hp it was supposed to?

3.) 5% is the legal variance allowed, he wasn't talking about drivetrain loss which is usually 15-17% on a RWD car. The car absolutely does not get 1/4 mile and 0-60 times that would indicate 238 hp, they all indicate that 215-220 hp is about right, as does every dyno run I've ever seen.

4.) A stock WRX dynos around 170whp and weighs a little more than an RX-8. It runs the 1/4 faster than the 8 due to AWD but the trap speeds are nearly identical which is a very good indicator of WHP. The previous S2K runs the quarter faster as well, weighs a little less, and is rated 2hp more at the crank. It traps around 5mph faster in the 1/4 mile and dynos right where it should be at 200-205 at the wheels. Want more examples I can come up with them, and every one will provide evidence that the RX-8 is not making the advertised hp.

gerx8

Compare it with an 1986 217hp 951 (aka Porsche 944 Turbo)
Curb weight: 3,115 lbs,
0-1/4 mile: about 14.x seconds

An N/A 1993 968 (237 hp)
968:
Curb weight: >= 3100 lbs
0-1/4 mile: 14.x seconds

or an N/A 944 S2
http://www.globalcar.com/datasheet/P...rsche944S2.htm

All cars exceed the RX-8 top speed (>160 mph vs 146) which is an better indication of hp (if top speed is drag limited)

Ike

Top speed doesn't mean much, trap speed however does.

dmp

Exactly!! Trap speed is an indication of 'power' e/t's are indicators of 'driver skill'...more often than not.

gerx8

Now some math:
F = A/2 x dc x D x v² + C_r x m x g
first part is the air resistance A/2 = front area, dc = drag coefficient, D = air density, v=speed (m/s)
second part is friction C_r = constant ~ 0.015, m = curb weight in kg, g = 9.81 m/s^2
P = F x v

So F x v = P (238hp) simply means that the forces hindering the 8 from getting faster are equal to its engine power.

p.s. has anybody seen an 8 getting faster than (146 mph gps)?

Rennwagen

I am also a lawyer (perhaps not more bloodthirsty than Hard8) which means that I also see both sides. I tend to side with those that are upset, though.

For me, it comes down to the things that you mull over when you are deciding which car company will get your $30,00+. After I drove the Z, I liked it, but not as much as the STI or the '8. I poured over spec sheets and spent hours researching things on the web and elsewhere.

Mazda made a claim about how much power this car makes. That claim has been shown to be false. Not simply in one case or in certain conditions, but across the board. Of the vast automotive community, no one has seen the horsepower numbers that Mazda claimed when they were trying to sell us the car. That's a big problem for me.

Those that would get pissy and tell me to buy another car do little to address my rather valid complaint. I don't want a GTO (I drove one before I bought the RX). I feel Mazda did a disservice and I want them to correct it.

Mis-staing hp numbers is done all the time. However, most times car companys know enough to underrate them. The Neon SRT-4 makes about 20hp more than Dodge claims and the early 150hp 1.8T VWs made more than 165.

I didn't want a drag car, nor did I care about having the fastest car on the block. I wanted a 238hp RX-8 but I was delivered a 215hp car. That's a problem for me.

quack_p

How did the it come to light that the HP was 238 rather than 250? I understand that the 238 is now in question, too, but I'm just curious how the first correction was made. Did someone sue Mazda? Did they cough it up voluntarily?

G8rboy

It was voluntary, but I'm sure the first wave of dyno numbers coming in from the summer of '03 helped push them to fess up. The also made a similar 'goof' back in '01 with the Miata- said it had 155hp, but after some PCM changes for emissions purposes, it was re-rated at 142. I think California is to blame for both overstatements of HP

quack_p

Boy, someone at Mazda seems to be good at exagerrating. Probably thinks 3 inches is a foot, if you know what I mean.

rx8wannahave

LOL, I love to talk about the RX8 too...but I love sports too...you can understand that can't cha?

I for one, aint an owner yet, but really like Mazda. I just don't trust anything on this planet 100%...well, less Family!



You know me so little, I would be the LAST person to ever pay $1,000 per 10HP…NO WAY ON EARTH!!!!

IF, and I say it again…IF I ever got a SC/Turbo the most I would spend is $3,000 for 100HP…no less, is that unrealistic...I don't know nor do I care...the RX8 is fast enough.

Read my post, I’m all about the bang for the buck and I actually can’t understand why people spend…

$500 for a carbon fiber hood to save 5 pounds
$350 for air intake for 2HP
$500 exhaust system for 3HP

So $1,350 for 5HP and 5 less pounds…sorry, that’s a bad deal!

Who are you talking about?

Ohhh, I never knew…


Blind? Actually it’s easy to believe in GOD…it’s believing in evolution, the big bang…etc that takes BLIND faith. GOD makes sense...all the other fallcy filled theories of men...are foolish to say the least.

The car absolutely does not get 1/4 mile and 0-60 times that would indicate 238 hp, they all indicate that 215-220 hp is about right, as does every dyno run I've ever seen.

Per Motor Trend:

04 WRX 227HP 0-60 6.1 ¼ Mile 14.5 93Mph (3085 pounds)
04 RX8 238HP 0-60 6 ¼ Mile 14.5 95Mph (3050 pounds)


10HP & 35 or so pounds

The truth will come out one day…I aint worried, 14.5 ¼ miles is fine by me!

No…it can’t get that either….yeah, and I live in a UFO…

Too many auto mag’s and at least one guy here got it…so it can be done…learn to drive it and the numbers will come!

dmp

That stat SUPPORTS mazda 238hp claim...unless Subaru over-rates too.

It's reasonable to expect a car to be a couple mph faster thru the traps w/ about 10more HP.

Ike

Ummm the WRX is AWD and has an estimated 26% drivetrain loss which is pretty typical for an AWD car, 227 - 26% = 168 whp which hardly supports the Mazda claim. That's one of the slowest times for the WRX and motortrend is pretty good at being all over the board on the test times, C&D seems to produce pretty consistent fast times. C&D tested the WRX at 14.1 @ 95mph if I recall correctly. Many many people in the WRX community have run low 14s @ around 94mph with a few people dipping lower than that with slightly higher trap speeds. This is all done with a slightly heavier car and only around 170whp which would lead one to believe the RX-8 has in the area of 170-180whp. Lets do the math for that one... 238 crank hp -16% which is a typical drivetrain loss for a RWD car adds up to 200whp which is on the low end of the scale for what the S2K gets and far more than what any stock RX-8 has ever dynoed. Now figure what a 215 hp RX-8 should dyno at the wheels which is 180whp, very very close to what most RX-8s have dynoed at. Most RX-8s trap in the area of 93-96mph, very close to the WRX. The WHP when considering what most RX-8s dyno at is very close to that 180 mark and also very close to the WRX in trap speeds with a slight edge to the RX-8 which is just how it should be if you consider the RX-8 is a little lighter and dynos a little higher than a WRX. Polak, the one person that came close to the mag times trapped 94, most of the others that have managed high 14s trap 93mph, if the RX-8 was making 238hp the traps would be about 4mph higher which is a mph or two slower than an S2K which has about the same listed chp and is a little lighter.

hotpot

The UK RX-8 is rated at 228 bhp. What's up with that? Tighter emission regulations? Anybody knows?

Razpewton

Ya know....when I first test drove the RX-8, and all the way through to driving my new purchase home, I don't believe horsepower was ever discussed.. I hadn't read in a magazine what the specs were and MazdaUSA never sent me a brochure with claims of non-existent horsepower.

I test drove the car, felt the surge of zoom-zoom racing through my veins, so I bought the car and have never regretted it. Anything beyond this is blah-blah-blah.

zevans

UK HP != US HP != PS (Euro HP)

And all of the above != indication of real-world performance.

Just to add to the fun, note the lo-power is tuned for slightly more torque, by the way...

IkeWRX - nice post - makes sense.

If Scoobies are running similar quarters to 8s, then why does everyone think Scoobies are fearsome and 8s are slow?

rx8wannahave

Ike, with all respect...

Stop saying that Polak got close...he nailed it (the time) so don't say that no more. Trap speed was different but he only had 3 runs. Also, Motor Trend Vs CD...is debateable to say the least. 14.1 is highly suspect and I'll take the MT numbers over CD. MT does not do certain things that other mag's do and vise versa so feel free to post your numbers but your numbers don't carry more weight than mine nor do mine over yours. It's all in how you present it...

I think the RX8 after looking over this information and stuff MIGHT be making less power but I don't think it's 200HP, if anything, it's probably in the 225-230 range. There is more to a car than numbers as others have said but the numbers that the RX8 get's are very respectable.

In the turns...the RX8 will leave the WRX behind...in looks...it will leave the WRX parked in the back of the parking lot, and its interior is much better.

The WRX has AWD "sweet", seats 4, is great all weather car, and is fast also...no doubt.

Each car has it's good and bad, but I hear you talk ALOT more about all that is wrong with the RX8 compared to any good. We know your stand on the RX8 but you never pass up a chance to hammer away at the RX8...gosh, I would not continually go to the WRX website and bash the car...I mean what is the purpose?

Ike

If a mag had run what Polak did I believe it would be published as a 14.6 and he did trap slower which is important when it comes to this argument. However it really doesn't matter it was a good run regardless, if you want me to say he nailed it, fine, he nailed it... ONE person has achieved the Mag times, one, maybe two if you consider Ito who beat them, we think... Why would you call 14.1 suspect and not 14.5. No 14.1 is not the norm for a stock WRX but it has been achieved more than once by owners, that 14.1 was achieved with a full production car while most of the 14.5s by mags for the RX-8 were done pre ECU change and with a preproduction car. Also, C&D is rather consistent with their times, Motortrend is not and I can find you many people that will agree with me but this discusion isn't about what magazine has the most reliable times.

No one has ever said the RX-8 is making 200hp so I don't know where you came up with that number. You're just pulling some random number out of a hat with your 225-230hp figure, what's your basis for these numbers? I've got 1/4 mile traps, an engine dyno, numerous other dynos, and comparison cars to base my number of 215-220hp on.

I never said the times for the RX-8 weren't respectable, but they aren't anything that numerous other cars in the same pricerange and cheaper can't achieve or beat.

I'm not going to turn this into a comparison of the WRX and RX-8. I simply used the WRX as a comparison since the it falls pretty close to what you asked for as a car with a similar hp to weight ratio.

You're starting to sound like some of the other RX-8 owners on this site. Show me where I'm bashing the RX-8, and it's clear that you don't know my stand on the 8 if you think I'm just here to "bash" it. I'm saying something that has good evidence to support it. It's funny how many times I hear on this site that numbers don't mean anything but these HP threads are some of the most popular threads and many RX-8 owners get very upset and defensive about someone saying the car doesn't have 238hp. Why would you defend something so vigilantly if you didn't care about it?

Ike

Probably simply because there are very few stock WRXs out there and they are so cheap and easy to make faster. The WRX is also cheaper than the RX-8 and was introduced first so it has more a reputation. When it was introduced in the US an import car that could run mid 5s 0-60 and low 14s in the 1/4 mile for under 30k was unheard of. It was obtainable, practical, and fast. The 8s get the slow wrap because it's more expensive, there's been a hp war the last couple years since the WRX was introduced, and it's slower than all its competition.

It's not slow, but when you consider the other cars that have been introduced in the last couple years it's nothing out of the ordinary. Subaru has 4 cars in the same preicerange that are faster, Nissan has 3 that are as fast or faster aound the same pricepoint, Dodge has 2 and one of them is much cheaper, I think you get the point. I'm not saying the RX-8 doesn't have other merits that set it apart from these other cars, but this thread is about horsepower and straight line acceleration.

Wankeler

That's your salesperson's fault. Mazda salespeople really didn't study for their "tests" (road test with potential RX8 buyers). Most SPORTS car buyers are interested in the advertised (claimed) HP numbers.

Regarding your new home... was square footage ever discussed? Would have purchased that home if they didn't?
Ok, lets say it was never mentioned, but you took a tour of the home and fell in love with it's layout, location, school district, etc... Then you buy the home... the seller (realtor, private contractor, whomever) listed the house and advertised it as 4000 sq ft. But then your interior decorator, Fabio tells you (and you verify it later) that your home is actually 3750 sq ft. Granted you loved the home enough to purchase it... but is it all really "blah blah blah"? Would you not be slightly upset?

PoLaK

iTrader: (1)

The RX-8 makes 219-222crankHP according to several engine dynos. Deal with it, it’s just a fugly number. When i go out on the road i don't say to myself you know I'm only felling about 218 of my HP today, man i really should be feeling 229. I have a problem with Mazda for saying its 238 but im not going to hate my car because it has 220.

They guy who originally tuned the Renesis to its pre-production HP is a NHRA guy, forget his name something Schrader i believe. He tuned the Renesis to 260HP without any regard for emission regulations, hence he didn't not have a CAT, he also had no mufflers. The only major difference was that he used different headers (longer i believe) and his own fuel maps. He won't market it to us though, nor will he give me his maps

rx8wannahave

Why? Did he get like 14.59…I don’t remember? From what I’ve seen normally Motor Trend will list it to two decimal points.

OK, I’ll take that back…I don’t know about the WRX but your partial to CD and I’m partial to MT. So, I take MT’s numbers and you take CD's numbers.

The MT test just happened like 2-3 mag’s ago this year so I think the ECU was set as it was sold to the owners of the car. If you would like I will post, but it might be illegal with copy write laws, the article…maybe text only or something.

That's another topic, agreed…I like CD but I have not seen one in a while so we can agree to disagree with what they report.

It’s called exaggeration…dot your I’s and cross your T’s…LOL...sorry

I said I “THINK” it makes about 225-230…think, but I’ll write less and edit more of what I write here. I’ll revise it again and say now that I THINK it makes something like 220…happy, but Mazda keeps telling us 238 even with the 05’s so you wont catch me telling people that the RX8 makes 220HP…

Faster car than the RX8 for less than $27,000 include?

SRT4
and….feed me, I’m not aware…the WRX “maybe” (more like a tie or based on the driver) but how much does it cost and do they still make it? Carsdirect.com does not have it listed????

350Z
G35
GTO
S2000
R32

are all more expensive than the RX8…

Note: I’m using a 6sp with Sport package as the listed price…not with all the options…some people said they paid $35,000 for the RX8…how?

So sensitive…ouch, I did not say all you do is bash but it seems that ALL I SEE you write about is about the negative things of the RX8. I don’t have the time to go search all of your post nor would you go find all of mine…but it SEEMS that you LOVE to talk about the negative things about the RX8. You never miss an opportunity to respond to people asking about HP, fuel economy, etc. Just an observation but again I like ya…I don’t want you to leave…I’m just stating my opinion on what you like to write about.

I’m not saying to leave or something…stick around, you keep me honest…I’m just making an observation based on what you write or at least what I SEE you write.

What I meant to say is that it’s not the only thing I look at. This is what bothers me, if Mazda said it has 238HP then it BETTER have it…if the EPA (which Mazda does list in advertisements so it’s using those numbers) say it gets 18/24…then it BETTER make those numbers. If MT and at least one owner gets the 0-60 & ¼ mile times of XX…then MOST drivers better get it (as long as they are decent drivers to begin with)

I mean...why report the performance numbers if only perfessional drivers could get them? I mean...then it's useless...

I truly love the RX8 and AGAIN I appreciate everyone giving input and their thoughts. But, it seems that a lot of people are a little touchy…probably me too…around here. Because I said something to disagree does not mean I hate you or something. I’m discussing things and sometimes I’ll say something wrong…IM HUMAN!

I’ll talk less maybe…but hopefully I won’t leave one day cause no one lets people talk about things or make mistakes…GOSH!

-=Zepplock=-

I'm there with you 100%!

rx8wannahave

LOL, nice one...pass the salt please cause IkeWRX keeps scareing me...LOL

PoorCollegeKid

Within $2000 of the RX8's base price, the Altima, Maxima, base 350Z, I35, WRX (if you go by average 1/4 times or best 1/4 times, the WRX comes out on top), Legacy GT, Forester 2.5XT, Outback 2.5XT, Evo VIII RS, Grand Prix GTP, Bonneville SSEi, Buick Regal GS, Impala SS, Monte Carlo SS, Saturn Ion, Cobalt SS, Mustang GT, and Accord V6, are just a sample of the cars available today that are fully capable of running in the mid to high 14s, if not lower (and in some cases, significantly lower). The RX8 is not meant to be a straight line, drag racing type of car, so it's no surprise that it's relatively bad at this. Drag racing an RX8 is like auto-crossing a stock Mustang: sure, you could do it, and the car might be halfway decent at it, but if that's what you really care about then why not buy a car that's actually designed for the task, rather than trying to make your car in to something that it's not? As has been said time and again on this forum, if being faster than the car next to you at a stoplight is important to you, the RX8 is not the car to buy.